You're so Vain by Carly Simon mystery man

[Steely Dan]

I actually checked out when there were total solar eclipses around the time she was probably writing the song. There was one in '67, '68, '70 and '72. If what she said was true (that the events were from her imagination), it's very possible that he never went to see any of them in Nova Scotia, but always watched them and did a lot of traveling (in Lear jets!) I always wondered if any of the usual suspects owned a race horse, or if she just meant he was lucky in gambling.

This is the post above yours. You probably didn't read it before you posted. I'm bolding the part about the eclipse.

Well she's said it's about three people, but I'm assuming mainly one. One of the guys is most likely Warren Beatty. He's not the main person though.

I found this to be very, very interesting from that website:

...In fact, one day in mid-June of 1972, a colleague and I were in the radio station when the record was played. When that particular lyric was heard, he turned to me and said, "that would be nice." I knew he meant that it would be nice to fly to Nova Scotia and see the eclipse the next month.

There was a total eclipse of the Sun on July 10, 1972 and Nova Scotia would be one of the best places to observe this particular eclipse (see an image of the eclipse).

Even though Carly Simon wrote the lyric in past-tense, she was really writing about an actual event in the not-too-distant future!

This brings-up several questions:
- Did she write the lyric in past-tense because she did not think the record would be released until after the eclipse? Or she did not think it would become popular until after the eclipse?
- Did this guy tell her about the upcoming eclipse and his plans to see it? Or did she know about the eclipse herself or did some other friend tell her about it as she was writing the lyrics - and she knew this guy would possibly fly to Nova Scotia to see the eclipse?
- Did this guy actually fly to Nova Scotia to see the eclipse? Or, did the release of this record actually make him decide NOT to fly to Nova Scotia to see the eclipse (AND, was this Carly Simon's purpose in writing the lyric)?...

I didn't know that the eclipse hadn't happened yet. :thinking:

 

[Steely Dan]

Ok, the eclipse did happen July 10, 1972 http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEgoogle/SEgoogle1951/SE1972Jul10Tgoogle.html

That's accurate.

However, the recording dates are: http://www.allmusic.com/album/no-secrets-mw0000196846


Recording Date
September, 1972 - October, 1972

So the total eclipse occurred DURING the recording of the album, which started recording after the eclipse had happened. So that DJ is full of :censored: She knew he had flown to Nova Scotia in July. :thinking:

Well at least that's another baloney story debunked, but isn't very helpful. :dunno:

 

[Nova]

First I'd heard the term 'gavotte,' I recall. Also last, possibly.

A devoted Anglophile such as yourself, godot? I promise you your noble and royal ancestors were doing the gavotte 300 years ago. (It was a French dance, but the English upper class adopted it and most fashions from Paris.)

 

[AlwaysShocked]

"Here’s what Simon had to say:

Simon: “In the case of ‘You’re So Vain’ I had the chorus: ‘You’re so vain/You probably think this song is about you.’ I had that written on a piece of paper a year before I got the rest of the song. I thought, ‘that’s kind of funny, it’s sort of a nice twist’ so I put it down in my notebook. And then about a year later I was at a party at my sister’s apartment and a man walked into the party with a big long scarf and he looked at the mirror, which was right as you entered the front door, and he whisked his scarf around his neck as he saw himself and he tilted his hat slightly to the left. I thought, ‘wow, he’s really vain…’

I then asked Simon about the meaning of gavotte as it applies to the phrase “You had one I in the mirror as you watched yourself gavotte.”

Simon: “A gavotte is a French dance. I thought I would use a word that was slightly presumptuous. It rhymed with what I needed it to rhyme with. He’s gavotting because that’s what a pretentious, vain man would do. But he’s not at the French court, he’s at my sister’s house.

”A friend of mine who was standing next to me said ‘he looks like he’s walking onto a yacht. So I put the two together — the line that I wrote with this very vain person whom I knew. So I started writing the song about the vain man."

http://variety.com/2012/music/news/deconstructing-carly-simons-youre-so-vain-29926/


This article makes it sound like the inspiration (at least originally) was a single person. Perhaps as she fleshed out the lyrics, thoughts of more than one person entered into it.

Wearing a hat and a long scarf to a party at her sister's house: Sounds more David Bowie-ish than Warren Beatty-ish. Was Mick fond of hats and long scarves back in the day?

David Cassidy??? Give me a friggin' break!

Who had their own Lear Jet? I doubt Warren Beatty.

Sometimes songwriters just want things to rhyme. Combine "things that vain, rich people might do" with "need to rhyme" and you get "Nova Scotia" and "Saratoga".

 

[wfgodot]

Was Mick fond of hats and long scarves back in the day?

snip

We have a winner.

 

[Steely Dan]

snip

We have a winner.

Unfortunately, he's already been ruled out.

 

[wfgodot]

Unfortunately, he's already been ruled out.

There are no rules in art.

 

[SteveS]

Some observations....

Written in 1971.

She was born in 1945, song written at age 26.

It says "you had me several years ago, when I was naive" which means she knew the guy when? Several years ago implies no later than 1968, I'd think, and maybe mid-60s (she was 20 in 1965). That date may eliminate some (for example, David Cassidy born in 1950, prob way too young).

FYI she's said Ovid has no meaning as to the name or identity of the vain guy.

Shouldn't read too much into the gavotte reference, as the rest of the lyric shows it's part of a verbal image of a guy watching himself in the mirror as he moves. The gavotte would imply exaggerated movements, but probably little else, and per CS not literally the dance itself.

Total eclipse in Nova Scotia is not common. In the 60s, 7/20/1963 on one end of the island maybe. 3/7/1970 definitely fits, and the path of the eclipse was such that viewing could have been prolonged by a flight path between Nova Scotia and NYC, for example. 7/20/72 also fits scientifically, but is after the song was written. So it had to be the 1970 eclipse.

She writes of the Lear Jet and it sounds like it wasn't a poetic device. (Of J Taylor, she says "...but he had the unfortunate experience of taking a jet up to Nova Scotia after I’d written the song. He was saved by the fact that it wasn’t a Lear."). 1st Lear was in 1967, further pointing to the 1970 eclipse.

So who owned a Lear in March 1970? The list may not be as long as we think. Expensive suckers, and of value only to certain clientele. The initial ones cost $14 million, which is $100 million in today's dollars. Not many have that kind of cash to spare.

 

[Ausgirl]

She writes of the Lear Jet and it sounds like it wasn't a poetic device. (Of J Taylor, she says "...but he had the unfortunate experience of taking a jet up to Nova Scotia after I’d written the song. He was saved by the fact that it wasn’t a Lear."). 1st Lear was in 1967, further pointing to the 1970 eclipse.

^ I thought she was talking about Beatty, there. He says in an interview, he actually did go to Nova Scotia for the eclipse, but it was in a helicopter.

So who owned a Lear in March 1970? The list may not be as long as we think. Expensive suckers, and of value only to certain clientele. The initial ones cost $14 million, which is $100 million in today's dollars. Not many have that kind of cash to spare.

Frank Sinatra!

I posted a couple of pages back, that at the time the song was released, there was only about 360 learjets in existence. And they cost around half a million dollars (in 1970's money!). Frank was cited as owning one, I haven't found mention of any other celebrities who did.

However, it was popular to lease one. It cost $185 a day. Not out of the reach of rich musicians.

 

[SteveS]

^ I thought she was talking about Beatty, there.

Nope. Clearly talking about James Taylor, in saying that it WASN'T him because he hadn't flown on a Lear to NS. Point being, the Lear was literal.

I posted a couple of pages back, that at the time the song was released, there was only about 360 learjets in existence. And they cost around half a million dollars (in 1970's money!).

The reference I saw said $14M price tag in 1967 money, but who knows, could be wrong. OTOH $500,000 seems way way wayyyyy too low to me.

A lease? Could be.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Actually ... old news.

 

[Steely Dan]

Some observations....

Written in 1971.

She was born in 1945, song written at age 26.

It says "you had me several years ago, when I was naive" which means she knew the guy when? Several years ago implies no later than 1968, I'd think, and maybe mid-60s (she was 20 in 1965). That date may eliminate some (for example, David Cassidy born in 1950, prob way too young).

FYI she's said Ovid has no meaning as to the name or identity of the vain guy.

Shouldn't read too much into the gavotte reference, as the rest of the lyric shows it's part of a verbal image of a guy watching himself in the mirror as he moves. The gavotte would imply exaggerated movements, but probably little else, and per CS not literally the dance itself.

Total eclipse in Nova Scotia is not common. In the 60s, 7/20/1963 on one end of the island maybe. 3/7/1970 definitely fits, and the path of the eclipse was such that viewing could have been prolonged by a flight path between Nova Scotia and NYC, for example. 7/20/72 also fits scientifically, but is after the song was written. So it had to be the 1970 eclipse.

She writes of the Lear Jet and it sounds like it wasn't a poetic device. (Of J Taylor, she says "...but he had the unfortunate experience of taking a jet up to Nova Scotia after I’d written the song. He was saved by the fact that it wasn’t a Lear."). 1st Lear was in 1967, further pointing to the 1970 eclipse.

So who owned a Lear in March 1970? The list may not be as long as we think. Expensive suckers, and of value only to certain clientele. The initial ones cost $14 million, which is $100 million in today's dollars. Not many have that kind of cash to spare.

BBM

http://www.carlysimon.com/You're_So_Vain.html

...Sheila Weller (writing for Vanity Fair) contacted Carly in London when her plane landed, and got her response: " I said “Ovid” [emphasis ours] both front- and backward together on the CD, and it came out sounding like 'David’ to some, I guess. But I meant it as an allusion to metamorphosis, and that this group of songs was rechanneled into a different cockroach. Kafka? Coffee? Clouds? I know it’s boring, but that could be good! "...

I'm not so sure. She says "Group of songs". I think that refers to the group of songs from Bob Dylan's 2006 album.

 

[SteveS]

If you read carefully, she's saying her use of the word "Ovid" was an allusion to his famous work, Metamorphoses. And that was to say that her new songs were a "metamorphosis" from some older works, ie (supposedly) they had begun as other songs by her (whether published or not?) years ago and now evolved into something new. Hokey, contrived attempt to sell records imo, trying to inject an air of mystery and novelty into her music where none truly exists ...and little else.

 

[dodie20]

I've always thought it was about Warren Beaty. It fit him to a tee and evidently he's vain enough to think it was written just for him, lol. To tell the truth, I'll be disappointed to hear Simon actually say it's not about Warren...because when I hear the song, he's the one I picture...all Bonnie and Clyde with his apricot scarf and hat dipped below one eye. Btw, I love this song. You know how you can hear a song and think, yeah, that's good, but then you notice some unmistakable ' thing' connecting it to a certain decade? like Van Halen's 80's synthesizers in 'Jump'? This song doesn't do that. It's great. I wonder if when they recorded it, they realized how good it really was?

 

[Steely Dan]

If you read carefully, she's saying her use of the word "Ovid" was an allusion to his famous work, Metamorphoses. And that was to say that her new songs were a "metamorphosis" from some older works, ie (supposedly) they had begun as other songs by her (whether published or not?) years ago and now evolved into something new. Hokey, contrived attempt to sell records imo, trying to inject an air of mystery and novelty into her music where none truly exists ...and little else.

I see your interpretation and the more I read it the more I think you're right, but I also think it might be both. JMO :dunno:

 

[Steely Dan]

I've always thought it was about Warren Beaty. It fit him to a tee and evidently he's vain enough to think it was written just for him, lol. To tell the truth, I'll be disappointed to hear Simon actually say it's not about Warren...because when I hear the song, he's the one I picture...all Bonnie and Clyde with his apricot scarf and hat dipped below one eye. Btw, I love this song. You know how you can hear a song and think, yeah, that's good, but then you notice some unmistakable ' thing' connecting it to a certain decade? like Van Halen's 80's synthesizers in 'Jump'? This song doesn't do that. It's great. I wonder if when they recorded it, they realized how good it really was?

The song contains characteristics of three people. She's said that it's a little bit about WB, but I get the impression he isn't the main figure. I'm still sticking by my Bob Dylan theory.

 

[Ausgirl]

The reference I saw said $14M price tag in 1967 money, but who knows, could be wrong. OTOH $500,000 seems way way wayyyyy too low to me.

A lease? Could be.

Oh, good point! The half a mil price came from an article on learjets, so I assumed it was correct - I was thinking myself, "Wayyyy to low?" -- a lease agreement is probably spot on.

I agree with your thoughts, re 'Metamorphosis' -- didn't she actually say the word 'cockroach' in a comment about her use of Ovid? Which makes me think of Burroughs & "Naked Lunch" moreso than Kafka, really.

I also tend to agree that she's milking the mystery. But it's fun to dissect it, anyway. Plus, memory lane and all the great music vids.

 

[Steely Dan]

Oh, good point! The half a mil price came from an article on learjets, so I assumed it was correct - I was thinking myself, "Wayyyy to low?" -- a lease agreement is probably spot on.

I agree with your thoughts, re 'Metamorphosis' -- didn't she actually say the word 'cockroach' in a comment about her use of Ovid? Which makes me think of Burroughs & "Naked Lunch" moreso than Kafka, really.

I also tend to agree that she's milking the mystery. But it's fun to dissect it, anyway. Plus, memory lane and all the great music vids.

The question has taken on a legendary size. Dick Ebersol paid $50,000 to find out for charity for God's sake. The guesses have to be hysterical to her. If I had a secret like this I'd probably be playing with it too and she seems to like to talk to people about it.

 

[chunchoboi]

I'm tempted to more believe the composite of several people theory, because if it was about just one person, I don't think it would still be a mystery. 3 verses/sections of the song divided by the chorus could be for 3 different guys? I'm thinking Howard Stern was probably right when he said the composite thing.

 

[SteveS]

1 I think it was WRITTEN about one guy. Maybe she's seen ways it can apply to others too, but ...

She sold the secret name to Ebersol in an auction in 2003. That implied a name, a single answer, not a vague list of kinda's. But I think she likes the tease, and fuzzying up the answer over the years.

2 I want to believe the answer is Warren Beatty. There are others she has denied. With Beatty, she always hints at how ludicrous it is, but then dances away without ever truly answering the question. Over and over.

But objectively, I think she's teasing, and maybe thinking it fit him well, thought she didn't actually write it about him.

He was a huge star in the late 60s, with Bonnie and Clyde (1967) being a huge box-office and critical triumph for him (he was the producer as well as the star) opposite Faye Dunaway. That (1967) was at age 30 for him, and CS would have been 22. She was a rich kid playing in bands and not yet a music star, so I'm left to wonder if they could have possibly crossed paths that early. I don't think so. One site says their relationship was in 1972-73, but I'm not sure that's right either.

If they met and dated somewhere in 66-67-68-69 years, I can see it. But I don't know if that happened.

I also wonder if WB had a history of sleeping with anyone, ie a close friend's wife. My impression has been that he's been a serial monogamist over the years, rather than a lout, but that's just an impression.

So with WB, I think she wrote the song about someone else, then as the song came out and she was in the same orbit, she thinks, "Well, you're so vain it could fit you as well."

3 I truly wonder if the name isn't really a person we would notice. Someone mega-rich, jet-setting, super sociable in certain circles (esp NY or LA), perhaps the child of big money like she is (and a spoiled brat), but not necessarily a celebrity known by all. If that's true, revealing the name becomes a letdown, and offers more rationale for why she's keeping it close to the vest.