Zellner Tweets

[Karinna]

When it comes to Zellner I'd say many of us are in a "wait and see" mode, which is where I would think everyone would be at this time. Simply put, Zellner has not presented anything from her various tests and such. To say she's already proved her case is false. She's waiting for tests to come back. She herself does not yet know what the tests will reveal. She has beliefs, but she is still waiting.

So please don't spin what others say. Just because some are not jumping up and down declaring SA's absolute innocence and full belief in Avery doesn't mean evidence that Zellner will eventually present won't be considered.

And finally, no one is required to agree on guilt or innocence. That would make for a boring forum if everyone had to and did agree.

I actually replayed the video of her trip to Manitowoc and listened carefully to what she had to say. K.Z. can't produce anything yet because there is still a lot of testing to do which could take up to 3 months to be finalised. This is a legal process and as we know legal process takes time. It can be a few years before a case can even get to trial, so it is what it is.
IMO being a very successful attorney and good at what she does & i really don't think she is going to make herself look incompetent for Avery's sake.
But yes, it's all a waiting game because these things do take time and K.Z. wants to do it right because she only gets one shot at it. All JMO.
I also don't feel like anyone is spinning anything just voicing their opinions which is what happens on a forum.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I'm quoting you to add to your unexpertly (this is not a real word LOL) quoted question.... They didn't find the bullet fragment in the fire, they found it in the garage. But IMO it should have been found in the fire LOL I think Zellner mentions in the motion that she would like to see if she can test it again, stay tuned ;-)

Safeguard ~ if you just want to answer part of post, just hit reply with quote and then delete whatever, leaving the question or comment you want to comment on

Why do you think the fragment would have to be found in the fire instead of the garage? If he shot her with the rifle more than likely the bullet would enter and exit her skull or wherever he shot her. In several other cases the bullet fragments weren't located inside of the skull or torso cavity but was found in the area where the shooting occurred once it exited the victim's body.

It makes much more sense to me that if he shot her in the head the bullet would enter and exit the head quickly leaving the fragments and bullet casing somewhere inside the garage depending on the position she was in when shot. Now if he had shot her with a low caliber handgun close up like a .22 or .25 instead of a long range rifle the bullet/fragments may have been found in the fire if they stayed within the skull before being burned up.

Rifles/rifle bullets are made for long range firing so that means of course the rifle bullet is traveling at a greater velocity to make sure it goes a much greater distance than a bullet shot from a handgun which is used only for short range shooting. After about 40- 50 yards the handgun loses it accuracy because the bullet is losing all of its velocity by then and is beginning to fall slowly to earth. Bullets fired from rifles can go a great distance. Some have even been hit accidentally when they were almost a mile away from where the bullet was fired. So I would not be expecting the fragments to remain inside but at the speed it was traveling when fired it would rip through the skull/brain and exit the skull all in less than a second, imo.

Do you know what type of DNA of Teresa's they found on the fragment/casing? Was it blood or brain matter?

Another thing that bothers me is how could he go about his day when a human body was being burned up practically right at his backdoor? Anyone who has been unfortunate to smell a dead body knows it is one of the worst smells they will ever endure. I have smelled two and to this day I cant get that smell out of my head. Now a burned body is even worse. I have visited people who were severely burned and the smell of the burned dead flesh still permeated into every part of the room.

I also want to thank you Missy for all of the hard work you have done and provided us on this case. I do believe that Avery is guilty but of course if it can be proven he is not then I am certainly open minded to that possibility.

 

[Karinna]

Consider just the DNA/blood found in TH's vehicle.

DNA test determined some of the blood matched SA.

- It must be planted!!!!111!!! I mean obviously!!11!

- Oh they did a test to check for EDTA? That test came back negative?

- Well that test isn't valid and anyway they all must have lied and that test is old and no that can't be.

From what i recall seeing of that very small smear of blood i gather from the cut on SA's finger inside the front of the car, it looked quite red in color, yet blood when it dries takes on a brownish appearance. If blood is preserved in a vial and used to place a smear like that would it tend to stay the red color as opposed to fresh blood from a cut turning brownish upon drying?

 

[Madeleine74]

I think what we saw was a picture (of a picture) and if that photo was altered to better show the color, we don't know. I think the forensic testing is what is important (DNA and EDTA). It will be the DNA/EDTA that reveals the outcome and that's what Zellner will use in her brief.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Consider just the DNA/blood found in TH's vehicle.

DNA test determined some of the blood matched SA.

- It must be planted!!!!111!!! I mean obviously!!11!

- Oh they did a test to check for EDTA? That test came back negative?

- Well that test isn't valid and anyway they all must have lied and that test is old and no that can't be.

It seems they are relying on the blood vial being tainted or tampered with even though they already had a credible test recognized by the courts to detect additives and found none in this case. I don't see the results of the prior test changing. So that one retest should tell her a lot if it once again comes back negative. Then she has a problem explaining how his DNA was found in Teresa's vehicle.

There has been much ado about the way the smears looked inside of her vehicle that belonged to Avery. I have never quite understood why others found that suspicious when we have seen many cases that included smears when the suspect made a blood transfer smear when he came in contact with the area where the blood smears were found. It is quite common for suspects to leave part of themselves behind even if they try to be careful. Either they didn't see it at the time or were careless.

Maybe Avery had plans to destroy her vehicle by crushing it flatter than a sardine can and didn't worry about what was inside of it.

So does his innocence hinge on the blood vial having an additive in it, and if it once again, shows it doesn't have any, then what?

 

[Karinna]

It seems they are relying on the blood vial being tainted or tampered with even though they already had a credible test recognized by the courts to detect additives and found none in this case. I don't see the results of the prior test changing. So that one retest should tell her a lot if it once again comes back negative. Then she has a problem explaining how his DNA was found in Teresa's vehicle.

There has been much ado about the way the smears looked inside of her vehicle that belonged to Avery. I have never quite understood why others found that suspicious when we have seen many cases that included smears when the suspect made a blood transfer smear when he came in contact with the area where the blood smears were found. It is quite common for suspects to leave part of themselves behind even if they try to be careful. Either they didn't see it at the time or were careless.

Maybe Avery had plans to destroy her vehicle by crushing it flatter than a sardine can and didn't worry about what was inside of it.

So does his innocence hinge on the blood vial having an additive in it, and if it once again, shows it doesn't have any, then what?

No it doesn't. Ms Zellner already knows who the perp. is and it ain't Steven Avery.

 

[missy1974]

Oceanblueeyes......I'm at work at the moment so can't completely answer you.....but imo from what I have read, I don't think the bullet would enter and then have enough power to exit. Zellner did say she plans on doing some tests on the bullet in hopes of figuring out what the source of DNA was (brain, liver, etc.). Also wanting to do more ballistic testing on it.

The smell.....absolutely! And no one said anything about the smell, not even Brendan in his march 1st interview.....a detail weigert and fassbender missed?

And thanks for thanks! I'm not sure why, but this case just got to me. I was very active at the beginning of the McStay case back when it was on the old court tv forum....it got to me too!

 

[IDK]

I actually replayed the video of her trip to Manitowoc and listened carefully to what she had to say. K.Z. can't produce anything yet because there is still a lot of testing to do which could take up to 3 months to be finalised. This is a legal process and as we know legal process takes time. It can be a few years before a case can even get to trial, so it is what it is.
IMO being a very successful attorney and good at what she does & i really don't think she is going to make herself look incompetent for Avery's sake.
But yes, it's all a waiting game because these things do take time and K.Z. wants to do it right because she only gets one shot at it. All JMO.
I also don't feel like anyone is spinning anything just voicing their opinions which is what happens on a forum.

I most definitely agree with the bolded statements above. At this time, I highly doubt anyone either on the fence or convinced of SA"s innocence is going to be swayed by rehashing the same points ad nauseum. KZ made some extremely bold, intriguing statements and I for one am waiting for this to unfold.

 

[Madeleine74]

It seems they are relying on the blood vial being tainted or tampered with even though they already had a credible test recognized by the courts to detect additives and found none in this case.

Many believe the EDTA test that was used is not credible and the results are not valid and/or it was yet again something else that was tampered with by an unscrupulous crime lab. There's always a new angle to the conspiracy proposed. Yes, the court accepted it but Zellner is looking at some other way of testing that will show what she thinks it should show and prove the blood was planted. There are 6 blood drops/smears that matched Avery so I suppose for completeness of the testing each spot/smear will need to be tested to determine if all of them were planted or not.

I don't see the results of the prior test changing. So that one retest should tell her a lot if it once again comes back negative. Then she has a problem explaining how his DNA was found in Teresa's vehicle.

Apparently whatever test will be run won't be this prior test but will be something new/different/better.

There has been much ado about the way the smears looked inside of her vehicle that belonged to Avery. I have never quite understood why others found that suspicious when we have seen many cases that included smears when the suspect made a blood transfer smear when he came in contact with the area where the blood smears were found. It is quite common for suspects to leave part of themselves behind even if they try to be careful. Either they didn't see it at the time or were careless.

I think it's the fact that the smear appeared bright red and not a duller color that made some think it was from blood with EDTA in it (like from a vial of blood). Others didn't think SA would allow himself to bleed in TH's car because he would know better or didn't believe he would bleed in the places he did (or some combo of all the above).

Maybe Avery had plans to destroy her vehicle by crushing it flatter than a sardine can and didn't worry about what was inside of it.

That's certainly possible but there are those who say, "no way, that SUV was planted on Avery property."

So does his innocence hinge on the blood vial having an additive in it, and if it once again, shows it doesn't have any, then what?

I think that's one big part of it, but not all of it. *IF* that blood tested by Zellner's people comes back showing it doesn't have EDTA in it, and it matches SA then to me that would prove his guilt because that's a very big and important piece of evidence.

 

[Sinsaint]

I am not sure if those tests have to be turned over or not? If Zellner disappears when the tests should be done.... we might know why LOL

the sweat DNA ~ it was never tested to determine what it was. Saliva, skin cells, blood, semen. IIRC from the motion, she wants to test it to see what it was too. There was an issue when they were taking SA's DNA.... they swabbed his groin area when the warrant didn't allow for that. It has raised some questions. The hood latch swab was also 'discoloured' according to SC in her testimony.

I guess if SA used *67 to call AutoTrader in the morning, maybe I would find it more suspicious, but he didn't. And without knowing his call history, and if he did use it before/after, then I just don't see it as that important. JMO

They get turned over to both sides when the test is done.

 

[Sinsaint]

BBM

I wonder why he asked for the same girl as last time. Did someone else do a poor job and he didn't want them? Why not say "Don't send the person who did the job poorly".

How do we know SA called and said quote: "send the same girl as last time?" According to what we know she'd been there roughly fifteen times and was the only person (girl or guy) that had been going out there for quite some time. SA might have easily said "can you send that girl out here to take some pictures?" Dawn added "same" on her own and now everyone assumes that's what he said verbatim.

 

[Sinsaint]

Maybe he didn't want her to have his number on her personal cell, but decided after the photo shoot, it was not really a big deal to him, so he didn't bother to block that last call? I am just not seeing it as a huge issue. Some may see it as, he didn't bother blocking that last call, cause he knew she was dead, and made the last call trying to locate her phone (or whatever), and didn't need to block it, at that point.

But if he was all that crafty, why would he want to leave a record of that last call? Why not just look for the darn phone, it couldn't have *gone* that far* ( just thinking out loud).
I agree this keep going around in circles. It's brought up a lot, by the He's Guilty-ers...The significance is just lost on me.

I never quite get the nefarious reasoning behind SA calling her at 4:35. Is it that he was going to leave her a message asking why she didn't come or was it to locate her missing phone? Neither theory works. The call wasn't long enough to leave a message. And assuming he lost it and was trying to find it he would have known he already destroyed it, ergo, it wasn't going to ring.

 

[Sinsaint]

Maybe he targeted Teresa for a sexual assault and lured her in ordered to commit that act. JMO

He had met this woman countless times and was so captivated by her that he wanted to rape her yet couldn't remember her name?

 

[Sinsaint]

He didn't have to know about the conversation. In my opinion, the look on her face or body language would have spoken loud and clear. G'night.

He was in a towel with a bathing suit on underneath. Eeeewwww! So creepy!!!

 

[Madeleine74]

How do we know SA called and said quote: "send the same girl as last time?" According to what we know she'd been there roughly fifteen times and was the only person (girl or guy) that had been going out there for quite some time. SA might have easily said "can you send that girl out here to take some pictures?" Dawn added "same" on her own and now everyone assumes that's what he said verbatim.

What did she say in her testimony?

 

[Madeleine74]

Is it being denied that TH did make a comment about SA to her coworker (regarding the towel incident)? Seems credible to me. She could think he's "ewww" or creepy and not be 'afraid' of him. Also, per the call sheet she was told she'd be meeting with and photographing a van owned by "B. Janda."

Why, out of 16 calls that one day, did SA hide/block his number on only 2 calls -- the ones that went to TH before she went to Avery Salvage Yard?

 

[missy1974]

How do we know SA called and said quote: "send the same girl as last time?" According to what we know she'd been there roughly fifteen times and was the only person (girl or guy) that had been going out there for quite some time. SA might have easily said "can you send that girl out here to take some pictures?" Dawn added "same" on her own and now everyone assumes that's what he said verbatim.

That's true, Dawn only said this in her testimony, it wasn't part of her reported statement to LE on the 3rd. And either she lied about the Janda/Avery connection at the trial, or LE lied about it on their report, this we know for sure. And the 2:27 call, I still question what was actually said vs. what Dawn says/thinks was said.

I think she was only out there about 6 times from June-October. There may have been another photographer out there before than, and SA might have been including those when he said 12 times or so that she had been there. Which actually tells me, that maybe he didn't even distinguish between the 2? LOL There is a document somewhere that has all of her photo's from her calls out there, I looked for it last week, it had poorly photocopied photo's of the vehicles she took pictures of (I was looking for a boat trailer that was mentioned in the recent motion).

Madeline ~ I don't think it's being denied, and I don't think SA denied it because somewhere along the way Strang or Buting commented on it, saying he had a bathing suit on underneath, that he had just got out of his pool. I wonder where that is.. hmmm ...maybe one of their press conferences? I don't think anyone is denying that it happened though. I think it's just the circumstances surrounding it that are being debated JMO

 

[Sinsaint]

Why do you think the fragment would have to be found in the fire instead of the garage? If he shot her with the rifle more than likely the bullet would enter and exit her skull or wherever he shot her. In several other cases the bullet fragments weren't located inside of the skull or torso cavity but was found in the area where the shooting occurred once it exited the victim's body.

It makes much more sense to me that if he shot her in the head the bullet would enter and exit the head quickly leaving the fragments and bullet casing somewhere inside the garage depending on the position she was in when shot. Now if he had shot her with a low caliber handgun close up like a .22 or .25 instead of a long range rifle the bullet/fragments may have been found in the fire if they stayed within the skull before being burned up.

Rifles/rifle bullets are made for long range firing so that means of course the rifle bullet is traveling at a greater velocity to make sure it goes a much greater distance than a bullet shot from a handgun which is used only for short range shooting. After about 40- 50 yards the handgun loses it accuracy because the bullet is losing all of its velocity by then and is beginning to fall slowly to earth. Bullets fired from rifles can go a great distance. Some have even been hit accidentally when they were almost a mile away from where the bullet was fired. So I would not be expecting the fragments to remain inside but at the speed it was traveling when fired it would rip through the skull/brain and exit the skull all in less than a second, imo.

Do you know what type of DNA of Teresa's they found on the fragment/casing? Was it blood or brain matter?

Another thing that bothers me is how could he go about his day when a human body was being burned up practically right at his backdoor? Anyone who has been unfortunate to smell a dead body knows it is one of the worst smells they will ever endure. I have smelled two and to this day I cant get that smell out of my head. Now a burned body is even worse. I have visited people who were severely burned and the smell of the burned dead flesh still permeated into every part of the room.

I also want to thank you Missy for all of the hard work you have done and provided us on this case. I do believe that Avery is guilty but of course if it can be proven he is not then I am certainly open minded to that possibility.

While you are correct about a rifle being more powerful than a pistol you didn't factor in the ammunition which is Mini Mag Hollow Point bullets. Hollow point bullets mushroom upon impact. My husband (and resident gun nut) said that type of ammunition would have difficulty even penetrating the skull unless it was from point blank but wouldn't rule out the possibility entirely. That said, if this ammunition did penetrate the skull it would have began to tumble and lose more velocity and with the bullet mushroomed there would have been no tip to penetrate the other side of the skull.

The bullet found had nucleated cells on it. Culhane used up the entire sample in her test so there is no way to determine if it was from blood or brain. One thing my husband also pointed out on this front was if, by some miracle, the bullet got through both sides of her skull with blood or tissue on it that blood and/or tissue should have been found on the cement floor. As we know there was no trace of her DNA found anywhere in the garage which wouldn't be possible if hit or rolled along the floor to it's final destination.

As to your last question many of us do not believe she was burned in his pit. But I could flip the question around on you. How did all the other people on the property not notice the smell if she were burned there?

 

[Madeleine74]

I have a difficult time with a common sentiment of everyone else was lying or mistaken, but not SA. Evidence that might look bad or curious or strange toward SA, it's either ignored, or argued into being part of a conspiracy or framing or coverup or it's twisted into a meaning that is the kindest and most benign meaning for SA.

Frankly that seems far-fetched to me and smacks of not only an inability or unwillingness to be objective, but of pushing an agenda. Not every state witness lied. And there is evidence that can't be explained away unless one goes into the conspiracy abyss. I'm not willing to take that leap without proof. And not just the suggestion or insistence of it, but actual proof. This is why I eagerly await the tests being run by the Zellner team.

 

[missy1974]

Thanks for the above info Sinsaint about the bullet/gun. I had this discussion with my resident gun nut a few months ago LOL I couldn't remember the particulars, but between him, other posters, and researching, I concluded that it was more likely that the bullet wouldn't exit.

And the lack of any of TH's DNA being found in the garage seems so unlikely if she was shot in there. JMO

Zellner does want to try to test it again, so it will be interesting if Culhane's opinion that there was nothing left to test is true or not.