Identified! Canada - Vancouver, 2 WhtMale Brothers, 7-10, "Babes in the Woods", Jan'53 - Derek and David D’Alton

[KarlK]

That info leads me to believe more than ever that a male was involved. Besides the amount of violence involved, the reason I am thinking that, is the isolation-most women wouldn't seek out that type of isolation. An abandoned house or a nearby woods, maybe, but not this type of isolation alone. And, many women didn't have licenses then, and few owned vehicles- unless it was a vehicle owned by the husband.
Then, after the children were killed, this woman who was so upset that she left a shoe would have had to walk out of the woods alone, on one shoe. Then drive? Hitchhike? Without anyone seeing her or noticing how upset she was?

Another point is that taking them out that far in the woods. Yet no attempt to dig the grave or even cover them with brush. A person familiar with the woods or with hunting may have been expecting that animals would find the bodies and scatter the remains. Which would be good for the murderer.
Yet, some woman covers them with a coat, which of course wouldn't be expected to stop an animal. So not a bad thing for the murderer, yet something that someone who cared a little about the boys might do.

I think what Brian meant was that the area where the bodies were found was isolated within the park, Stanley Park itself is not located in a remote area, in fact it's very close to downtown Vancouver (at the bottom of West End) and there is no need to hitch a ride to get there, just walk down any of the major westbound streets from downtown and they'll lead you right to the park's entrance (Lost Lagoon). When I was living in Seattle we'd go to Vancouver at least twice a month to see my (now ex) wife's brother (and to buy Cuban cigars for myself lol) and we've been to Stanley Park numerous times, in fact I have walked all of the main trails in the park and then some. Many areas of that park are very remote yet only a short distance from populated areas.

The park is typical of Pacific Northwest urban landscaping, in that area cities were built in densely wooded areas and part of a city's incorporated territory would be left "as is" with minimal infrastructure to serve as a wilderness retreat for city residents. Trails and convenience facilities were built but most of the acreage was left untouched, overgrown with dense rain forest vegetation so one needs not venture far from a trail to find themselves in a "remote area" where years can go by without human intrusion, all that a 30-minute walk from downtown. The West End was already developed in the 1940's although not as densely built up as it is now (it now looks more and more like Manhattan).

If someone wanted to commit murder in the city with minimal chances of being heard or seen or have the victims quickly found then Stanley Park was the perfect location: completely isolated areas were plenty and no transportation required to get there and back. As for animals scattering the remains, there are no large predators left in the park, bears, cougars and foxes had been long gone by 1947, the most likely animal to be attracted to bodies there would be seagulls and insects, and those usually eat their meal where they find it so bones are likely to be left undisturbed for years. I think that, to anyone who knows the park and has heard about details of the crime scene, the most likely suspect is the mother or at least a female who had an emotional bond with the victims.

 

[rpipergirl]

If you go to A&E Networks website and click onto the episode archives for Cold Case Files, the story of the two skulls is featured in an episode titled "Hunter Homicides/Skulls of Stanley Park. Off to the right side you can click to download the original police report on the skulls. I've been trying to decipher the handwriting. It might provide us with some clues to work from.

That is actualy a different case of two boys who were murdered in the park and later id'd. Just saw it yesterday.

 

[rpipergirl]

in reply to some of the thoughts spoken without any knowledge 1 of course DR DAVID SWEET and i kept part of each remains as biological samples for court purposes as well as for future science and then i cremated the rest. as to what of the childrens remains we kept good luch cause neither DAVID or I will tell anyone and we have a solem pact on that unless you can demonstrate a very good reason that you should know 2 as to the mother been a prostitute there were indicators that the woman in the MISSION city lead NELLIE SCOTT was involved in prostitution now that that is cleared there is no other indication that the mother probably the killer was a prostitute 3 the assumtion that the killer was probably the mother is based primaril on the ladies shoe left behind as well as the kids covered up with a cheap fur coat which also happens to be a womans coat 4 the kids both had a different father and we did not rcieve any missing reports from a mother looking for her 2 boys other than this who knows

Very interesting,Brian. I did not know they were only half siblings. That could be a clue. I have been intrigued by this case for a long time. Today I set up a myspace for the boys. http://www.myspace.com/stanleyparkboys1953

 

[Richard]

It would be interesting to know if any of the items mentioned in the case files are available today to attempt to obtain DNA from the possible killer. Such as from the woman's shoe or the coat.

 

[thefragile7393]

I wonder if Brian is still around on this site...it's been about 3 years since he last posted.

 

[ctaylor]

A new article on this case, with quotes from the retired detective Brian Honeybourn, who posted in this thread nearly 8 years ago. This article mentions Mr Honeybourn's theory that it was their mother who killed them.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/unsolved-stanley-park-babes-in-the-woods-case-still-haunts-a-city/article16122339/?cmpid=rss1

Interestingly, there is going to be a museum exhibit of this case opening early this year featuring a recreation of where the bones were found. Not really sure what to make of that....

From the article -

Still, the case lives on in an exhibit at the Vancouver Police Museum, which features replicas of the original bones in a vaguely unsettling reproduction of the setting in the park where they were found. Robert Noon, the museum director, says it’s a mystery how the original bones ended up at the museum, which was created by police officers in the 1980s, but has no official ties to the VPD.

A museum presentation on the case is in the works for early 2014.

Mr. Noon says the exhibit resonates with visitors. “When they get to the Babes in the Woods cabinet, there’s almost a silence – a hush comes over them as they read about what happened to these small children,” he says. “Once you learn about it, it’s got an intrigue that’s infectious.”

The case also haunts him. “I personally lock up the museum and go through the displays turning the lights off,” he said, “and whether, intentionally or otherwise, that’s always the last light I turn out. I say, ‘Good night everybody’ and walk out. It’s something I’ve done ever since I’ve been here.”

...

 

[tarabull]

:bump: for the babes in the woods!

Such a mystery!

And where did Brian go?

 

[Roselvr]

This is good!!!

http://www.vancourier.com/issues03/082103/news/082103nn9.html

I'd like to find time to read this thread.
If anyone wants to read the article linked above; see Unsolved Canada; they saved the whole article

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

On January 14, 1953, a park worker found two child skeletons among the brush at Stanley Park in Vancouver, British Columbia. They were believed to have been there since fall of 1947.

Items found with the children's remains:
a blue tin lunch box, deteriorated clothing (zipper jacket or sweater), two leather aviator helmets, a child sized belt, brown oxford shoes, a broken hatchet (a lather's axe by some accounts), a woman's shoe, a bracelet with pictures of dogs, and a woman's raincoat (which covered their remains).

Because woman's clothing was found with the children it is believed their mother was the perpetrator. Several witnesses came forward about a woman and two boys being spotted at Stanley Park, but these tips were disregarded at the time because one of the boys remains was thought to be female until a DNA analysis was conducted in the late 90's, which confirmed they were both boys. They were also found to be half brothers, with different fathers.

Description of victims:
There is not much listed for their descriptions.
Both boys were between the ages of 7(some list 6)-10 years old, and they both had light hair.

In one particular witness account, two logging camp workers picked up a woman and two young boys (at least one had a aviator helmet). The woman said they were from Mission, BC and that she had gotten in trouble with the Mission police for vagrancy, which is believed that the woman meant "VAG C", which is criminal code for prostitution. Because of this witness account, and the finding of the boys being half brothers, their mother is commonly assumed to have been a prostitute.


http://doenetwork.org/cases/69umbc.html
http://doenetwork.org/cases/68umbc.html

http://www.theprovince.com/clues+revive+year+Babes+Woods+case/10281341/story.html
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ods-case-still-haunts-a-city/article16122339/
http://babesinthewoodsmurdercase.blogspot.ca/

 

[STANDREID]

Did the loggers give a description of the woman they claimed to have picked up? If she had sons that age, she must have been between 25 and 50 which would make her over 94 today.

 

[U2forever]

aThousandYearsWide, thanks for posting this. I have been reading the blogspot site along with the comments and while reading, I read about two older boys (13 y.o.) who ran away from a foster home and were murdered and found in Stanley Park, circa 1989 and their case is The Hunter Murders.

This case is so heartbreaking and I pray they get their names back.

Godspeed sweet angels :angel: :angel:

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

Something really interesting to look at if you are looking into the Babes in the woods case, a past volunteer for the Babes in the Woods Task Force, Katarina Thorsen who is an author and artist is creating a graphic novel based on the case.

https://katthorsen.com/2016/04/25/molly-teresa-odwyer-april-25-1924/

She recovered an article about a woman named Molly O'Dwyer who committed suicide. she was from Alberta and had relocated to the city (presumably Vancouver) in 1947. She found another article that stated a Molly from Alberta headed West in 1947 with her two children and was never seen again. It's interesting how her finds parallel the Babes in the Woods.

https://katthorsen.com/molly-preview/
This link provides a preview to her graphic novel based on the murders. she has pictures, and sketches of what she thinks went down.

 

[CanManEh]

As Iam reading this case ..I know it's not the same location or people but what i picture in my mind is Melinda Duckett walking hand and hand with Trenton duckett into the forest and then i can in my mind see her walking out of the woods alone....PS I forget the forest i think it was in or around orlando..

 

[U2forever]

Something really interesting to look at if you are looking into the Babes in the woods case, a past volunteer for the Babes in the Woods Task Force, Katarina Thorsen who is an author and artist is creating a graphic novel based on the case.

https://katthorsen.com/2016/04/25/molly-teresa-odwyer-april-25-1924/

She recovered an article about a woman named Molly O'Dwyer who committed suicide. she was from Alberta and had relocated to the city (presumably Vancouver) in 1947. She found another article that stated a Molly from Alberta headed West in 1947 with her two children and was never seen again. It's interesting how her finds parallel the Babes in the Woods.

https://katthorsen.com/molly-preview/
This link provides a preview to her graphic novel based on the murders. she has pictures, and sketches of what she thinks went down.

aThousandYearsWide, I was reading a little about her book and I really want to get a copy when it's for sale.
I also read in the comments on the blogspot that someone thinks it may be a German lady and she died in 1972, and something about the boys aunt.

Not sure if I believe this, but in a case as old as this, nothing should be discounted without further research.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[U2forever]

As Iam reading this case ..I know it's not the same location or people but what i picture in my mind is Melinda Duckett walking hand and hand with Trenton duckett into the forest and then i can in my mind see her walking out of the woods alone....PS I forget the forest i think it was in or around orlando..

CanMan, pretty sick isn't it.

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

Did the loggers give a description of the woman they claimed to have picked up? If she had sons that age, she must have been between 25 and 50 which would make her over 94 today.

The only description I remember hearing about this lead was that she had red hair, but I may be mistaken. I don't think investigators are following that lead anymore, I just found this article-> http://vancouverpolicemuseum.ca/murder-mystery-intrigue-in-review-babes-in-the-woods/ from 2014 that says he's investigating an even earlier lead from 1944, after he discovered the style of shoe the boy'a were found wearing was available earlier then previously expected.

The current lead being followed by investigators:
“In May 1944, there was a sailor from Esquimault and his fiancée walking along the seawall when a woman crashed out of the bush in front of them, wearing just one shoe and no coat, and letting out a guttural sound, according to the report at the time. She took off running.” from http://www.theprovince.com/clues+revive+year+Babes+Woods+case/10281341/story.html

aThousandYearsWide, thanks for posting this. I have been reading the blogspot site along with the comments and while reading, I read about two older boys (13 y.o.) who ran away from a foster home and were murdered and found in Stanley Park, circa 1989 and their case is The Hunter Murders.


This case is so heartbreaking and I pray they get their names back.


Godspeed sweet angels :angel: :angel:

You're welcome U2forever! I have been interested in this case since I saw it featured on Cold Case Files ("The Skulls of Stanley Park", Season 1:Episode 5) Here's a script of the episode: http://mreplay.com/transcript/cold_...ark)/612/KICU/Monday_September_21_2009/86448/ The episode also features the two 13 year olds missing in 1989, their names were Ramsey Rioux and Kenneth Lutz.

Photo of Rioux, couldn't find one of Lutz

This article mentions them along with the 1953 case. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-darker-side-of-stanley-park/article13942211/

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

As Iam reading this case ..I know it's not the same location or people but what i picture in my mind is Melinda Duckett walking hand and hand with Trenton duckett into the forest and then i can in my mind see her walking out of the woods alone....PS I forget the forest i think it was in or around orlando..

Thank you for introducing me to this case, I'm surprised I've never heard of it especially since Nancy Grace got sued after Melinda's suicide. Another sad case where the child caught in a bitter divorce battle goes missing...I mean, who takes a 2 year old to a shooting range or expects that story to be believable? The forest you're thinking of is the Ocala National Forest.

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

aThousandYearsWide, I was reading a little about her book and I really want to get a copy when it's for sale.
I also read in the comments on the blogspot that someone thinks it may be a German lady and she died in 1972, and something about the boys aunt.

Not sure if I believe this, but in a case as old as this, nothing should be discounted without further research.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, she's brilliant! I really wonder if she's on to something with Molly. There is another novel that mentions the Babes in the Woods case, Stanley Park by Timothy Taylor. It's about a Vancouver chef whose father is obsessed with solving the Babes case. Never have read it, but would really like to.

I agree, in really old cases nothing should be discounted, especially in the cases where the murder is likely dead. The babes in the woods case is a great example to why older cases should be reevaluated with today's technology. In the 1950's the Stanley Park murders were a boy and a girl who were killed no earlier then the fall of 1947; after further research in more recent years, we have two boys who may have been killed as early as 1944.

 

[Sillybilly]

Was pondering the idea that the killer of these two boys was either a single mom, or separated. If separated though, you would think a husband or an ex would have come forward. If the mom was from another province however, family may have just thought she went to Vancouver and they never heard from her again. Then I came across this info about women from other provinces and war-time employment in Vancouver:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...tory.ca/story2.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

World War Two changed the lives of women, as it would do elsewhere. Single women from the Prairies came to work in Fraser River canneries during the war. Many of them married local fishermen and stayed on. Out of a work force of 13,000, a thousand women worked at busy Burrard Dry Dock where, at the war's height, 34 "Victory" ships were built in 26 months. (When victory was announced in 1945 some women at Burrard found themselves in tears knowing their jobs had ended and that, despite a fight by their union to keep them on, the returning men would necessarily put them out of work.)

There was no welfare in those days, so a mom had to either have family to support, or a job. Am thinking that the mom may have lost her job (and then her mind) and felt she could not care for her sons. Other co-workers and any child caregivers may have been told, or just assumed, that she had returned to the prairies.

 

[Sillybilly]

In one particular witness account, two logging camp workers picked up a woman and two young boys (at least one had a aviator helmet). The woman said they were from Mission, BC and that she had gotten in trouble with the Mission police for vagrancy, which is believed that the woman meant "VAG C", which is criminal code for prostitution. Because of this witness account, and the finding of the boys being half brothers, their mother is commonly assumed to have been a prostitute.

<rsbm>

If we take the earliest date of the shoes being 1944, and the boys were aged 6 to 10, they would have been born approx. 1934 to 1938.

I wonder if Mission police records were checked for the names of any prostitutes.

Whether she had a job as a prostitute or otherwise, somebody had to be looking after the kids while mom was out working.