Possibly related cases (GB4, Manorville, Bittrolff victims, & others)

[tmacirish1]

As to why would some killers who are "narcissist" allow, and sometimes prefer a partner? Because, contrary to many beliefs, they are very aware of what is right, and what is wrong. They may not beable to feel guilt in some cases, but they do know what the difference is, especially the highly intelligent ones, society makes it pretty clear that butchering people is not a good decision. So, it makes sense that a partner who thinks similiarly would reinforce their behavior, and absolve any reservations that are had. Think about it, when you were young I am sure you did something you shouldn't have and gotten in trouble. Now, think back to a scenario wtih a friend when you did something wrong, both knowing it was wrong, but it didnt feel as bad because you had some else acting out with you. The same logic can be applied.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Yeah, I was just throwing that out there. The book was written in the early 90s from data college throughout the 70s and 80s (republished in 2006), and it only consists of the sample sizes used for its study. The book boldly and clearly states that the subject matter in this area is fluid. It changes all the time. These people aren't computers hardwired to run a certain way, the human mind's abilities are amazing and different from individual to individual.

Again, I was not stating that this is the case with whats going on in LI, just thought it would be something to mention as had happend historically. And a case for that actually happening? Relatively recent actually, and one of the most sick and terrifying accounts Ive read---Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka--read about those two sweethearts. They went a little past "sharing". Karla fed that monster her sister along with many other women.

Narcicissim is what is seen on the surface of these people. There is a tangled web of raw hatred and inner rage at society that filters into their sexuality. They are the perfect storm of dysfunction, and evolve into "evil".

You're right. This is not math. Nothing fits perfectly, and never will because no 1 killer is the same. I am not using "textbook sk 101" I am taking what I know about this (which is minimal) and sharing my ideas, as you are.

As I wrote when I typed the 49% statistic, it may be off as I am going from memory, and I will double check tomorrow.

Btw--the book is called "Crime Classification Manual: A Standard System for Investigating and Classifying Violent Crimes" Written by Robert Ressler, John Douglas, Ann and Alan Burgess. Robert and John built the FBI's BSU. You should read it if you have not yet done so.

I love that :floorlaugh:! But I have to apologize to you. You couldn't know, that the subject of psychologists & profilers vs basic math was already several times a subject here. We had studies in the "pschological markers" thread that for example tried to extrapolate distances between serial killer's homes and they dump sites - entirely forgetting, that SKs in cities have to drive more miles compared to the beeline than hose in rural areas. Also entirely forgetting, that some of those sweethearts build their own little graveyards and thus distort the statistics by dropping for example four bodies in almost the same GPS position. And so on and so on. And every time, I stumble about that, I get auto-started since I can see my old professors wchacking me with a wet towel if I would have done such mathematical head shots. My apologies!
While I respect the Agents Ressler and Douglas and also Hazelwood a lot, it is still clear, they were at the beginning of a development. Their data set was quite small. And we know what happens with statistics based on too small data sets. In fact, I demonstrated such statistical jokes in one or two of my own books.

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

As to why would some killers who are "narcissist" allow, and sometimes prefer a partner? Because, contrary to many beliefs, they are very aware of what is right, and what is wrong. They may not beable to feel guilt in some cases, but they do know what the difference is, especially the highly intelligent ones, society makes it pretty clear that butchering people is not a good decision. So, it makes sense that a partner who thinks similiarly would reinforce their behavior, and absolve any reservations that are had. Think about it, when you were young I am sure you did something you shouldn't have and gotten in trouble. Now, think back to a scenario wtih a friend when you did something wrong, both knowing it was wrong, but it didnt feel as bad because you had some else acting out with you. The same logic can be applied.

Because not all are narcissists in the sense of a fully blown NPD. I agree, with what you say about the estimation of right or wrong. But then, those guys just ignore the matter and do what they please, which is in the cases, we talk here, is killing people. I mean, who would talk about a garden variety sociopath breeding orchids?
So the determining factor is, what they want. That determines, whether they have use or need for a partner. I suggest, you look up Bonin and his pack. Bonin was a psychopath and a narcissist but not a narcissist in the clinical sense. He was interested in control and also the feeling of power, but what is the greatest power without someone admiring it? In a more plaintive wording, this guy wanted to see someone what he was able to do. He wanted an auditorium.
Alcala on the other hand presents the almost typical picture. Psychopath and narcissist, including a victimology based on hidden visual aspects. Most people don't know it, but Alacala tried to join kind of a "team", the Hillside Stranglers. His staging of Jill Barcombe was like an apply to join a club. It showed, he saw her work, it demonstrated to them, he was able and willing. Still, he never got an answer because the two cousins felt good enough without a third guy. But that was the only time, Alcala showed a tendency to team up, but that was while he was still young and at the begin of his career while the Strangler had already beaten him by far as far as the body count went.
There are reasons to team up, but they don't apply to all SKs, only to certain types and sometimes only in certain phases of their careers. Fine differences, made by details.

Peter

 

[tmacirish1]

I love that :floorlaugh:! But I have to apologize to you. You couldn't know, that the subject of psychologists & profilers vs basic math was already several times a subject here. We had studies in the "pschological markers" thread that for example tried to extrapolate distances between serial killer's homes and they dump sites - entirely forgetting, that SKs in cities have to drive more miles compared to the beeline than hose in rural areas. Also entirely forgetting, that some of those sweethearts build their own little graveyards and thus distort the statistics by dropping for example four bodies in almost the same GPS position. And so on and so on. And every time, I stumble about that, I get auto-started since I can see my old professors wchacking me with a wet towel if I would have done such mathematical head shots. My apologies!
While I respect the Agents Ressler and Douglas and also Hazelwood a lot, it is still clear, they were at the beginning of a development. Their data set was quite small. And we know what happens with statistics based on too small data sets. In fact, I demonstrated such statistical jokes in one or two of my own books.

Peter

I apologize if I am misinterpreting your post, but you're seeming to come off very condescending. I did not compare behavior analysis to math, the opposite actually, I defended myself again your claim that I am using "SK 101" and to state that I am well aware that gathered stats are very small samples, and that the research in the area of bs is constantly changing and evolving. My statement about 49% was just a statement. Nothing more and nothing less. Just food for thought.

"Statistics never lie, but liars use statistics". I have done a lot of work with statistics in my grad classes that deals with criminal trends, poverty, and everything else under the sun. Statistics are very useful to an extent, but modern academia puts way to much emphasis on their value, especially in the fields of psychology and sociology. Statistics can be flawed for many reason, including the size of samples..etc. But, the major failure when it comes to using statistics for formulate fact (my profs would kill me if they read this) is that they are based on self-reporting (I am not going to get into how unreliable that can be). Stanton Samenow, a renown criminologist for like the last 40 years, targeted this issue in a relatively recent book, which really pissed off academia, who tend to be very left leaning, for many reasons.

Geographic profiling is gaining a lot of ground, but, as you said, a serial killer in kansas is going to have different trends then a serial killer in NYC.

So, I think we are in agreement in many areas. When it comes to behavior analysis of violent crime, I tend to shy away from academics and those who have never seen a crime scene, a dismembered victim, never spoken to a victim/family, never interviewed or interrogated a killer of any kind, and have never investigated a crime, especially a serial killers crime, to its completion. There are many things that I do not know, and I do not pretend to be an expert. I strongly admire the works of those whom have worked in the field, and are gifted enough to detail their findings.

Ressler, Douglas, McCary and other like him have spent years hunting these people with mindblowing success. (And they still do to this day) Its not just their statistics in the criminal personality indentification project that are of interest, they have detailed dozens of cases and walk the reader through step by step on how it was solved. McCary still does consulting for LE agencies.

You seem to be very involved in these killings. Have you collected data on what has been released and verified as truth? If so, would you be interested in sharing?

 

[Redbird]

Because not all are narcissists in the sense of a fully blown NPD. I agree, with what you say about the estimation of right or wrong. But then, those guys just ignore the matter and do what they please, which is in the cases, we talk here, is killing people. I mean, who would talk about a garden variety sociopath breeding orchids?
So the determining factor is, what they want. That determines, whether they have use or need for a partner. I suggest, you look up Bonin and his pack. Bonin was a psychopath and a narcissist but not a narcissist in the clinical sense. He was interested in control and also the feeling of power, but what is the greatest power without someone admiring it? In a more plaintive wording, this guy wanted to see someone what he was able to do. He wanted an auditorium.
Alcala on the other hand presents the almost typical picture. Psychopath and narcissist, including a victimology based on hidden visual aspects. Most people don't know it, but Alacala tried to join kind of a "team", the Hillside Stranglers. His staging of Jill Barcombe was like an apply to join a club. It showed, he saw her work, it demonstrated to them, he was able and willing. Still, he never got an answer because the two cousins felt good enough without a third guy. But that was the only time, Alcala showed a tendency to team up, but that was while he was still young and at the begin of his career while the Strangler had already beaten him by far as far as the body count went.
There are reasons to team up, but they don't apply to all SKs, only to certain types and sometimes only in certain phases of their careers. Fine differences, made by details.

Peter

Are you saying that Alcala knew the Hillside Stranglers and they had a relationship? Do you have information to support the claim that Alcala admired them and wanted to join them? I find this a startling idea and very unlikely. Do you have any links I could read? How was his staging of Jill Barcomb like an application to join a club?

 

[Peter Brendt]

I apologize if I am misinterpreting your post, but you're seeming to come off very condescending. I did not compare behavior analysis to math, the opposite actually, I defended myself again your claim that I am using "SK 101" and to state that I am well aware that gathered stats are very small samples, and that the research in the area of bs is constantly changing and evolving. My statement about 49% was just a statement. Nothing more and nothing less. Just food for thought.

"Statistics never lie, but liars use statistics". I have done a lot of work with statistics in my grad classes that deals with criminal trends, poverty, and everything else under the sun. Statistics are very useful to an extent, but modern academia puts way to much emphasis on their value, especially in the fields of psychology and sociology. Statistics can be flawed for many reason, including the size of samples..etc. But, the major failure when it comes to using statistics for formulate fact (my profs would kill me if they read this) is that they are based on self-reporting (I am not going to get into how unreliable that can be). Stanton Samenow, a renown criminologist for like the last 40 years, targeted this issue in a relatively recent book, which really pissed off academia, who tend to be very left leaning, for many reasons.

Geographic profiling is gaining a lot of ground, but, as you said, a serial killer in kansas is going to have different trends then a serial killer in NYC.

So, I think we are in agreement in many areas. When it comes to behavior analysis of violent crime, I tend to shy away from academics and those who have never seen a crime scene, a dismembered victim, never spoken to a victim/family, never interviewed or interrogated a killer of any kind, and have never investigated a crime, especially a serial killers crime, to its completion. There are many things that I do not know, and I do not pretend to be an expert. I strongly admire the works of those whom have worked in the field, and are gifted enough to detail their findings.

Ressler, Douglas, McCary and other like him have spent years hunting these people with mindblowing success. (And they still do to this day) Its not just their statistics in the criminal personality indentification project that are of interest, they have detailed dozens of cases and walk the reader through step by step on how it was solved. McCary still does consulting for LE agencies.

You seem to be very involved in these killings. Have you collected data on what has been released and verified as truth? If so, would you be interested in sharing?

As you said, we agree in a lot of points. So what's left is obviously to get some details clear before there is a misunderstanding:

- I came to profiling from an entirely different area: History. Parts of history demand profiling since we know the involved persons but can't ask them anything anymore. So originally, like 15 to 20 years ago, profiling SKs was to me kind of a test field for the methods.

- I am a writer, I write novels. Which, because some are also about SKs, forced me, to create such characters from the scratch. Which isn't as easy as it sounds if you want consistent characters.

- so technically, I profile SKs simply because I can. Technically., everybody can, and if she/he has studied enough cases, the patterns become relative clear.

- I am NOT especially involved in the Long Island and Atlantic City cases. They are just more open cases. But since I am otherwise pretty busy, I focus with my posts here on those cases.

So far about me. I have a "collection" of cases and my wife and me are bringing those cases to our website. Which is a long tedious process if you have made a lot notes on paper and most of the details don't come from the web but out of books, printed reports and sometimes newspaper snippets. Media that just can't be copied and pasted into an HTML-file. And for each case, images have to be added from internet sources and scans. Lets say, this "sharing" will take years, if not a decade, because my "collection" includes ab. 300 cases from all over the world. So, I ask for patience, especially, since this isn't what I make my living with, just one of my hobbies.

Peter

 

[BKS]

Wasn't there an article, the place had been refurbished in 2006. During the murder, there were construction workers around the place. So it can't be that run-down, it's just 5 1/2 years ... or well, it's 5 1/2 years, that's enough time for some people to run down a place?

Peter

The Golden Key is a dump now, has always been a dump and will always be a dump. Renovation? like putting lipstick on a pig, still a pig.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Re...olden_Key_Motel-Pleasantville_New_Jersey.html

 

[BKS]

The 16 tested were mentioned in this thread somewhere. So I trusted WS in this case. I know, Oleson was tested. And nope, I quoted only Sherlock, so don't try to blame me for his sudden appearance in this thread. However, since you didn't do it with the intention of slander, all is good, I assume.

Peter

Never heard 16 tested in the AC4 cases. Where can we find that info?

 

[BKS]

I also think Kim Raffo is the key to solving the AC4. Who was she talking with the last weeks before her murder? Was anyone stalking her? Why did that person who spent 5 weeks with her in LI later lie about where he was the weeks before her murder? Why did that person have her cell phone pass code?

 

[Peter Brendt]

The Golden Key is a dump now, has always been a dump and will always be a dump. Renovation? like putting lipstick on a pig, still a pig.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Re...olden_Key_Motel-Pleasantville_New_Jersey.html

You wouldn't expect the Hilton in that neighborhood, would you?

Peter

 

[NoviceSleuth]

I also think Kim Raffo is the key to solving the AC4. Who was she talking with the last weeks before her murder? Was anyone stalking her? Why did that person who spent 5 weeks with her in LI later lie about where he was the weeks before her murder? Why did that person have her cell phone pass code?

Her estranged husband.

 

[BKS]

You wouldn't expect the Hilton in that neighborhood, would you?

Peter

I know it's a dump. You were talking about it couldn't be that bad, that it had been remodeled. I was merely responding to your info.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I also think Kim Raffo is the key to solving the AC4. Who was she talking with the last weeks before her murder? Was anyone stalking her? Why did that person who spent 5 weeks with her in LI later lie about where he was the weeks before her murder? Why did that person have her cell phone pass code?

How sure are you, anyone had her cell phone pass code at all? Any links? And don't worry about the pig with makeup, I only liked the wording.

Peter

 

[BKS]

How sure are you, anyone had her cell phone pass code at all? Any links? And don't worry about the pig with makeup, I only liked the wording.

Peter

I was speaking with "that person" on another website and he said (his words) "yep i called her phone and it went to voice, i knew kims passcode! checked into it to see who was calling her. and let the police know her code as well. so they can triangulate the phone, being it went thru when i first called(not the second time though) but then i tried the direct connect (boost, nextel, and sprint have this) and iIT went thru as well. meaning the phone was still active when i was in florida trying to reach her"[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Peter Brendt]

I was speaking with "that person" on another website and he told all of us [FONT=&quot](his exact words) " yep i called her phone and it went to voice, i knew kims passcode! checked into it to see who was calling her. and let the police know her code as well. so they can triangulate the phone, being it went thru when i first called(not the second time though) but then i tried the direct connect (boost, nextel, and sprint have this) and iIT went thru as well."[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

So, provided, you are sure, it was really that person, you talked with (which would be hard to prove), you consider this story true. But then, he was her husband, so why shouldn't he have her pass code? My wife knows my passwords too and vice versa, I would know hers if I wouldn't forget them all the time ...

Peter

 

[BKS]

He was her ex. Why would she want her ex to have her pass code? She wouldn't even return his calls. She left him.

 

[Theforeigner]

So, provided, you are sure, it was really that person, you talked with (which would be hard to prove), you consider this story true. But then, he was her husband, so why shouldn't he have her pass code? My wife knows my passwords too and vice versa, I would know hers if I wouldn't forget them all the time ...

Peter

I know for a fact that this person BKS is posting about indeed was Kim Raffo's x-husband.

Kim Raffo left her x-husband already back in 2000, so they had been apart for ca 6 years at the time of her murder. And Raffo's x-husband have stated that he had not seen her since 2004 when he went to AC "to rescue" her in Sep 2006.
So why would he have her code?

 

[tmacirish1]

As you said, we agree in a lot of points. So what's left is obviously to get some details clear before there is a misunderstanding:

- I came to profiling from an entirely different area: History. Parts of history demand profiling since we know the involved persons but can't ask them anything anymore. So originally, like 15 to 20 years ago, profiling SKs was to me kind of a test field for the methods.

- I am a writer, I write novels. Which, because some are also about SKs, forced me, to create such characters from the scratch. Which isn't as easy as it sounds if you want consistent characters.

- so technically, I profile SKs simply because I can. Technically., everybody can, and if she/he has studied enough cases, the patterns become relative clear.

- I am NOT especially involved in the Long Island and Atlantic City cases. They are just more open cases. But since I am otherwise pretty busy, I focus with my posts here on those cases.

So far about me. I have a "collection" of cases and my wife and me are bringing those cases to our website. Which is a long tedious process if you have made a lot notes on paper and most of the details don't come from the web but out of books, printed reports and sometimes newspaper snippets. Media that just can't be copied and pasted into an HTML-file. And for each case, images have to be added from internet sources and scans. Lets say, this "sharing" will take years, if not a decade, because my "collection" includes ab. 300 cases from all over the world. So, I ask for patience, especially, since this isn't what I make my living with, just one of my hobbies.

Peter

Thanks man, I appreciate your passing a long any info that you have, and take your time ofcourse. I apologize for the confusion. So, do you feel the LI murders are connected and represent the various stages of our sweethearts evolution?

 

[BKS]

I know for a fact that this person BKS is posting about indeed was Kim Raffo's x-husband.

Kim Raffo left her x-husband already back in 2000, so they had been apart for ca 6 years at the time of her murder. And Raffo's x-husband have stated that he had not seen her since 2004 when he went to AC "to rescue" her in Sep 2006.
So why would he have her code?

If my ex was trying to "rescue me", and then took me to a run down flea bag motel in a dirt bag part of town, I'd leave him too. There is no reason in the world why she would willingly give him her pass code.

 

[Peter Brendt]

He was her ex. Why would she want her ex to have her pass code? She wouldn't even return his calls. She left him.

And how does that prove, she changed her pass code?