OK - Donald 'Joe' Neff, 61, Poteau, 14 May 2009 - #1

yosande said:

because the timeline is so tight, it seems to me that someone did know his routine and was waiting for him.

I also read there was signs of a scuffle, so he fought the perp.

Do you know if he would lock the door after entering when first arriving, and unlock the door for the early customer, and other staff, or just leave it unlocked upon arrival?

Since he fought for his life, it sure seems to me the perp's dna and blood would have also been found at the scene. Have le ever said he was murdered there?

Do you know if any blood was found in his home, especially around the safe?

Did he drive to work, and where was his auto located?

How far, in minutes, and distance is his house from the bar?

Did his gf live with him at his house, if not, is her residence far from the bar or house, and in which direction?

Did he ever fish near or around where he was located?

Did he know and get along with the owner of the strip pit where he was located?

Thinking back to that time, can you think of anyone who wasn't seen for a week or two after may 14, or who looked as though they had been in a fight, but said they were in a car accident, or had some other excuse for the bruises, and scratches on face and hands?

Did anyone say they had gone on vacation, a camping trip, etc after may 14, and returned late may, or early june?


Tia.

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ok i will answer in order i think. Yes someone had to know the routine. They could not have just happened upon him and this happen, i don't think anyway.
Yes there were signs of struggle, lots of blood, the le would not elaborate. I do not know much else about the crime scene. He did lock the door the second he walked in and it is a deadbolt and he left keys hanging in it. When employee got there he would go open it and lock it right back.
He did drive his tahoe to work and it was still sitting there with the keys in the ignition beside the bar where he always parks. He lives about 3 or so minutes from the bar.
Le does not say where he was murdered. No there was no blood at the home. I checked. The gf house is about 4 minutes in the other direction, so his house would be in the middle.
The owner of property and my dad may have heard each other names but no my dad has never been out there or knew him to my knowledge, i do not think that you can fish there, the owner keeps posted signs up and does not allow people on his property. I have heard that he sees everything that comes on his property.
Nobody that i am aware of was missing during that time frame but even if they were i may not have noticed, well i am sure i would not have noticed, i was sick with grief. I lost 20 pounds in one month. I really think that other people would have noticed that though. And so far i have not heard anything.

yosande said:

i don't know height and weight, but moving a live person is far easier than one who is deceased, and the timeline is 10 am, last seen to 11:45 am when the crime scene was found. The fight, and blood was found somewhere in the bar, i don't know where, at the door, or somewhere further inside?

Is there a back entrance where something could be loaded into a truck without being seen from the road?

Were there signs indicating someone unconscience was drug across a floor that would indicate the murder took place at the bar?

It's difficult to accept that he died inside the bar, and was then moved.
That doesn't make sense to me, unless he was killed at the door entrance. Jmo

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my dad is very strong. Stocky, about 5'10" and about 200 pounds. He would not have left there without a fight, this i know for sure.the bar has a front door, and a side door, out the side door is where his car was parked, then a door on the other side toward the road, but no back door.
I dont know either, if i had just killed someone i think the least of my worries would be moving the body. But then again you cannot be a rational thinker or you would not have murdered in the first place. I just don;t understand them taking a chance driving 20 miles or so with a dead body, but i guess if you had somebody tied up you would still get arrested huh? They gambled, very risky, whoever this is i think is not afraid because they have done this before and have gotten away with it.

sameole said:

hooray! I finally got on websleuths. I am the jimmy that wudge posted one of my comments from topix. I will post some of the ideas i have had about this case and jodies. It is almost imposible for me not to link these two together. The interesting thing to me is, how did these folks sit and watch, get there timing down and joe's comings and goings without anyone seeing them? My big question to missing my dad is, can you see the mountain tops from either the bar or his home?

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hi there! Welcome jimmy, you can see the mountain top from out the front door porch at the bar, because it sits on a hill. Long lake hill. Google the map, it is 68155 hwy 59 south

wudge said:

here's a pretty strong inferential clue. If your father's hands or arms were, indeed, taped. Then i would like to know if le found the roll of tape that was used to immobilize your father.

If le did not find the tape, i suspect it's likely that the persons or person's who abducted and murdered your father brought the tape with them for the purpose of doing just that. And if that's true, then you can cancel out a fight or other mishap that simply got out of hand. For bringing the tape into the bar would certainly have been part of a thought out plan, and in this case it would give strong evidence to premeditated murder.

What do you know about the tape? Did anyone from le ask you or your family or the bar's employees before if your father kept such tape in the bar? Or do you know for a fact that he did keep such tape in the bar?

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we were never told if he was taped or tied or what. The le has been very tight lipped. That is fine. As long as they find who did this. But i have heard rumor in town that he was bound, so, take that however, i have heard it a lot, but i have heard that he was beaten and i have heard that he was not beat. I was not allowed to view his body, i begged, i wanted to make sure it was really my daddy, but they told me no. And they were not gonna give in...
I have a question. If he was in the water for 3 days, would dna still be present on his body, fingernails, clothing, etc.? I was just wondering if the water would wash all the dna away.

itsreenw said:

sorry, a couple more things.

Iirc, the gf spent the previous night at your dad's, went to her other job that morning, then arrived at the bar shortly before noon. The customer is already inside looking around for joe, then the gf shows up and they call 911? Has anyone heard the 911 call?

Who left the house first that morning? Was she the 'friend' that saw him at 7am?
I'm wondering if someone was already inside the bar, laying in wait for joe to get there. Or maybe they'd been to the house to rob it while he was out and were inside robbing the bar when he showed up earlier than expected. I don't think they took him back home from the bar.

Were phone records from the house/bar checked? What about the gf's/dad's cell phones?

The gf seems elusive. Just showed up in a small town and nobody is sure where she came from? No kids? She was with joe for a year or more but has no involvement with his daughters who were obviously very close to their dad. Friends and family and even the sheriff have been quoted in various articles about what a great man joe was but there isn't one quote from her.

Was it ever determined what type of car or truck he bought a part for that morning?

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i have never heard the 911 call, but they may be held as evidence. We still cannot have his hat or anything. She left 1st to go to her other job, yes she is the friend who saw him at 7. My husband drove by on his way to work and seen her leaving early. That scenario sounds very possible. They could have robbed the safe while he was paying the bill and stuff, then waited on him at the bar. Hmmmm...yes i think the osbi has all phone records. I agree, very strange that i did not know her, i actually was not really sure of her name the day he went missing. I had to ask again. I was just never around her enough. But my dad never never spoke a bad word about her. He said she was sure easy to get along with.
But i do not know anything about her, not really. I am not sure if he bought a car part or what that day. I think he was working on something at the bar, so it could have been a small piece of hardware even. The parts store is directly across the street where he paid his bill that morning. So he could have stopped there since it was convenient. I just do not know, i am sorry.

yosande said:

bumping my own post to say sorry for asking questions that were already answered in the thread, i just hadn't gotten to them yet.

Some questions haven't been answered yet though, so mmd, please read and post answers if possible.

Since you talked to your dad nearly every day, and we don't know him, it is my hope that by asking questions, we can open your mind to possiblities you haven't thought of yet.

Is it possible that your dad knew the woman who was killed around the same time, jodie?
Or, because she is closer to your age, did you or your sister know her? Tia

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no i did not know jody, and i asked my sister and she did not know here either, but she did not grow up here, and we did. I do know her aunt, she was my teacher, and i talk to her often. I have heard that jody had been to my dads bar, but i do not go out, i used to years ago but have not been there in almost 4 years. So i do not know if he knew her, but i do not think so. She went missing before he was killed and it was all over the news and i remember talking with him in disbelief about how dangerous this world has become. He never said he knew her or anything, so i assume he did not. She was quite a bit younger than me even, i think by 10 years or so, i am 38 i cannot remember her age.
Ask away, i will answer whati know, unfortunately, it isn't much.
But i will do what i can. Thank you

Thank you MMD. Now, if someone out there can find out if you can see the mountain range from Jodie's house, it sure would point this towards a possible M.O. I can't tell what the name of the mountain range is north, north=east of her home, because I scribbled over it's name on my map. But again, my guess would be yes, you can. It would be nice to have someone verify that for me. In the end though, it still doesn't give you a suspect.

missingmydad said:

THANK YOU I AM GONNA GO CATCH UP NOW. HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE, AND TO ANYONE OUT THERE WHO IS GOING TO HAVE THEIR 1ST THANKSGIVING WITHOUT YOUR LOVED ONE, I AM SORRY AND I PRAY THAT GOD WILL GIVE US ALL STRENGTH TO GET THROUGH IT.

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Wanted to check in real quick before I leave for the hospital - hubby was admitted Monday. Cancer of the throat/neck. He has a very bad infection in his feeding tube, stomach & mouth.

Just want to say to try to have as good as a dinner as you can today.
Your dad would want that for you.
He'd like you to enjoy the people you still have in your life; and think good thoughts about him on this day.

I have tears in my eyes for you. I know how hard it is for you today.
I know my own heart is hurting without my dad & husband.


(((HUGS)))


As far as his GF - I never met my mother in law until we'd been together about 4 - 5 years. I met her at their 50th anniversary party.



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missingmydad said:

I have a question. If he was in the water for 3 days, would dna still be present on his body, fingernails, clothing, etc.? I was just wondering if the water would wash all the dna away.

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In this case, I would think the dna under fingernails would be the most worthy after being in water.

If he was placed in the pit and depending how much water, then more than likely any evidence would be destroyed by the water. But you never know what may have survived it.

missingmydad said:

we were never told if he was taped or tied or what. The le has been very tight lipped. That is fine. As long as they find who did this. But i have heard rumor in town that he was bound, so, take that however, i have heard it a lot, but i have heard that he was beaten and i have heard that he was not beat. I was not allowed to view his body, i begged, i wanted to make sure it was really my daddy, but they told me no. And they were not gonna give in...
I have a question. If he was in the water for 3 days, would dna still be present on his body, fingernails, clothing, etc.? I was just wondering if the water would wash all the dna away.

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Yes, there would not be an expectation to find any 'touch' DNA. The only place a lab could hope to find touch DNA would be on tape that had been wrapped over itself; that is, if tape was, indeed, used on your Father's arms or hands.

Is there anyone in your family to whom LE has confided as regards some of this basic information on evidence they've obtained about your Father's murder?

It's one thing for LE to withhold letting out a critical piece of information or two that only the murderer would know, but it seems to me that they are keeping the family totally in the dark on most everything. If it were me, I would be forcing the issue -- as I described in prior posts. At a minimum, I would have an attorney make contact with whomever is heading up the case. You and your family have a right to know what progress they have made, if any. I would not wait for this to turn into a cold case.

This gets back to the basic problem in Oklahoma, which are extraordinary laws designed to sheild the public of the truth. I didn't read the laws en toto, but after the attack on the Oklahoma federal building, your legislature put laws in place on the release of information to the public. You're fighting a uphill battle against the authorities there. A lawyer probabably is your only recourse as wudge said.

I don't think a family member of the victim would be considered public, would they?

Missingmydad, my heart breaks for you, but I agree, there needs to be some way for you or someone in your Family to have more information. Which would not mean you could share it with us here. But there should be more that they can say to shine a small beam of light.

Carolina Girl, I'am not sure either way on that one. But MMD talks as if they aren't telling her very much.

mmd, I was wondering if you have talked to the customer who arrived before the gf/employee?

The impression I got was that the customer happened upon the scene, and went in search of your dad around the area, when the gf showed up. So having thought he saw the blood, I'm now thinking he couldn't get inside b/c the door was locked, so he went looking around outside. The gf showed up, unlocked the door, then they discovered the hat, blood, and whatever else caused them to think a scuffle occurred.
Also, did you talk to the gf about what she saw, or if she suspects anyone?
Also, is she still living in the area? Is she working somewhere?
I wonder if he had a life insurance policy with her as beneficiary, and if that might have been what was taken from the safe in the home?
ok, that is a wild imagination, with no basis to think it so. just covering all bases.

So do you know if she has bought a new car, or wearing nicer newer clothes.

I don''t have any reason to suspect her, and I don't, unless her and the customer have a history, moved there near the same time, and he has a new car and clothes too.

My thoughts and prayers are with you at this time. I'm truly sorry for your loss.

During the time when your father was missing and everyone was looking for him, thinking back on it now, was there anybody who seemed overly annimated, putting themselves front and center of the search, someone who went above and beyond anyone else?
Someone wanting to know all the details of the search? Or someone who kept coming around after your father was found to perhaps find out all the information they could about how the investigation was going?

VB

sameole said:

This gets back to the basic problem in Oklahoma, which are extraordinary laws designed to sheild the public of the truth. I didn't read the laws en toto, but after the attack on the Oklahoma federal building, your legislature put laws in place on the release of information to the public. You're fighting a uphill battle against the authorities there. A lawyer probabably is your only recourse as wudge said.

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From what I know; the family has not been told much.
It's my guess that they are trying to keep as much quiet as they can because one never knows who would do something like this.

While I'm sure it stinks to not know; I do understand the reason.

Look at Jody's case; the paraglider says one thing while the family is saying otherwise. It's my opinion what the paraglider is saying was not supposed to be let out to the public.

yosande said:

I wonder if he had a life insurance policy with her as beneficiary, and if that might have been what was taken from the safe in the home?
ok, that is a wild imagination, with no basis to think it so. just covering all bases..

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Girlfriend is too obvious. Situations like this, family is usually the 1st questioned.

As far as an insurance policy; MMD has said that after everything was paid from the insurance; there was not enough left to keep the bar running. So we know the kids were the beneficiary; or we assume.

When my dad passed away; I was accused of taking out my own policy on him; him changing his policy for me to be the beneficiary as well as there being more then 1 & I stole the 2nd..

If he was taped; that would help me make the most sense of everything.
Things do not add up here..



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These are from my old notes, and as far as I know they are still unsolved. They are not in order. All were found dead.

Feb 21, 2002- Hope Meek-valliant, Ok.

Between Aug 1999 and Jan, 2002
Jane Chafton, Found near Velma, Ok.
Cassandra Ramsey,Found near bridge, Jefferson county
Mandy Raite, Found in comanche County.

June, 1988-Mary Pewitt-Comanche County
July 1997-Ricky Lynn Gatewood/Debra Kay-Pontotoc County near Ada. Shot in Head
July 1997-Tiffany Johnston(my notes don't have a place.)
March 1997-Thomas Richard Humphers, Left home in Ada, Found in Lake Texoma, cumberland Cove Resort.
Feb. 1996-Danny Oakly/Doris Harris-Burned home, Delaware County.
June 1997-Found in Hominy Hotel.(I don't have the her name on my notes.)
May 1992- Wendy Camp, 6yr old Cynthia Britto, Sister-in-law Lisa Kregar, dissapeared near Shamrock.
Robert Austin Owens-Feb 4, 1991-healdton, Ok. Found shot at home.
August 11, 1997-Gerthie Carolina-found at home-seminole County, near Sasakwa, Ok.
June 23,1996-Janice Powers-found shot in her backyard-Caddo County.
Oct. 18,1998-Alexander S. Williams-found in trunk-Chickasha.
Sept.20,1997-Leah Rochelle Mahseet-body near Geary, Ok.
March 14, 1998- Leonard Dirickson-Last seen heading to Mobeetie, Tx.
Jan.5, 1981=Tracy Diane Neilson-found stabbed in Apt. Moore, Ok.
Nov. 12, 1988-Dwayne McCorkendale-Shot at truck stop near Chandler, Ok.
Dec. 30, 1999- Ashley Freeman and Lauria Bible-Vinita. (I don't believe they ever found their bodies.)
Suddenly, the dates of unsolved murders jumps, and I believe this is actual.

Sept.22, 2006-Brette Wolfe, Seminole, Ok.
Dec. 25, 2007 Jack and Elaine Denny-Cherokee County
June 17, 2007-Pamela Purser-Lone Grove
Sept 17,2007-Jasmon Howell-Idabel
May 2, 2008 Johnny Lee-Altus, Ok.
Nov.27, 2007-Denice Stice-Ok. City-Lake Overholser.
May 2007-Skull Found north of Tulsa-Osage County.

These are by no means all of them, I left out the Weleetka girls, Frieda/Marie Dighton.

MMD, I look at the picture of you and your father and I can tell he was very proud of you. I am only sorry that I will never get the chance to belly up at his place and hang out with him. It's one of my favorite hobbies. My following post is something I put together off of the OSBI website. I put them in order, something they can't seem to do. I have been very critical of them since the Weleetka girls, and actually had an OSBI agent hang up in my ear.( Not before I told him what I thought of him in a polite sort of way.) It was one of my proudest moments. I'll put my record up against anyones. There has and is a big problem out there. Sorry.

As of last year, all of these kids were listed on the OSBI Website as missing. This is unacceptable. The OSBI needs to be disbanded.

4-20-06 Wewoka, Or./ Colt Clark/m/11
5-11-06 Oklahoma City/Sheila Guardyare/f/16
6-25-06 Kansas, Ok/Lajauna Reid/f/17
9-22-06 Tahlequah, Ok./Brittany Ransey/f/17
9-24-06 Clinton/David Santau/m/2
11-10-06 Muskogee/ Micheal Gross/BM/15
11-22-07 Lawton/Destiny Brown/F/16
2-22-07 McCaleser, Ok/Kimberly Felder/F/17
5-6-07 Norman, Ok/Starla Hudson////F/17
5-22-07 Fort Sill/Ashley Ussery/F/17
8-24-07 Edmond/Daniel Thompson/M/16
8-26-07 Bartlesville/Brookland Stewart/F/16
9-17-07 Ok City/Kerry Jones/F/15
10-21-07 Moore, Ok./Holden Cross/M/17
11-9-07 Tulsa/Cori Baker/F/13
1-21-08 Tulsa/Ana Bruno/13

For a long, long time after the Weleetka girls, this type of sudden disapearance of young kids came to a screeching halt. It can only be one of two things, and I will only tell you one of the possible reasons. I believe the OSBI stopped listing them.

sameole said:

Thank you MMD. Now, if someone out there can find out if you can see the mountain range from Jodie's house, it sure would point this towards a possible M.O. I can't tell what the name of the mountain range is north, north=east of her home, because I scribbled over it's name on my map. But again, my guess would be yes, you can. It would be nice to have someone verify that for me. In the end though, it still doesn't give you a suspect.

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Jody was found on Poteau Mountain, but we are surrounded by mountains and hills here. There is Sugarlaof Mountain in Monroe-Gilmore into Arkansas area. There is Cavanah but it is really the worlds highest hill. It is right along the edge of Poteau. There is Blue Mountain, and list goes on. Get a map off Google and compare it to yours. Sorry I am not that much help in geography. I just do not see how to tie her to my dad, other than they were killed within the week and a half of each other. I remember talking with dad about her death being on the news. He would have said something had he known her. I am sure of it. We had lost about 2 or 3 friends recently, and we talked about them dying and missing them. He never said anything to make me think he knew her at all.