CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #3

[ThinkHard]

Psychosis is a loss of contact with reality that usually includes:
False beliefs about what is taking place or who one is (delusions)
Seeing or hearing things that aren't there (hallucinations)
Psychotic symptoms may include:
Disorganized thought and speech
False beliefs that are not based in reality (delusions), especially unfounded fear or suspicion
Hearing, seeing, or feeling things that are not there (hallucinations)
Thoughts that "jump" between unrelated topics (disordered thinking)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002520/

eta..... NOT MANIA !

Well that's all very true.

But I'm confused what the point is of defining psychosis in this case.

Elisa supposedly suffered from bipolar disorder. Not psychosis. So why define psychosis ?

Am I missing something?

 

[OCSlacker]

Also, on a previous thread, I posted that there was an error, whether intentional or not, that BD, 89 year old, 32 year resident that heard a loud noise and experienced flooding lived on the 3rd floor. In fact, records show he lives on the 14th floor. Could the loud noise have been someone dropping a body onto the tank from the maintenance roof, then reverberating through the pipes to cause that loud noise? Could the flooding have come from water pressure once she was placed in the tank to back up the toilet system on his floor. It could also be that the perp had a room or knew of an empty room on the 15th floor and attempted flush her personal belonging which caused flooding to the floor. Or perhaps was drowned in a room on the 15th floor which caused an overflow of water. How many rooms on 15 have a private bath and are any near where BD has a room?

I'm thinking drowning or asphyxiation by pillow as COD. Does anyone know if specific signs would show on a body due to suffocation that would be distinctly different then a drowning victim? Aside from the obvious water in the lungs.

 

[SCHMAE]

Well that's all very true.

But I'm confused what the point is of defining psychosis in this case.

Elisa supposedly suffered from bipolar disorder. Not psychosis. So why define psychosis ?

Am I missing something?

A number of medical problems can cause psychosis, including:
Alcohol and certain illegal drugs, both during use and during withdrawal
Brain diseases, such as Parkinson's disease, Huntington's disease, and certain chromosomal disorders
Brain tumors or cysts
Dementia (including Alzheimer's disease)
HIV and other infections that affect the brain
Some prescription drugs, such as steroids and stimulants
Some types of epilepsy
Stroke

Psychosis (or psychotic symptoms) may also be found in:
Most people with schizophrenia
Some people with bipolar disorder (manic-depressive) or severe depression
Some personality disorders

Some of the above could be going on with her also I've not ruled out that she was attacked prior to the video.
I'm wondering if she took an unfamiliar med, bought on the street, given to her by a ' friendly' guest if hers were
out and she trusted this not knowing what it was.

Also it's an ' acute' temporary state I believe. Oh boy I would hope no one has it permanently. So she could very well
have had A psychosis that was only that night , that day , maybe a day or 2 or 3 before. How long were people saying
she was talking strangely to them at the store ? Just that last day ?

 

[ThinkHard]

A number of medical problems can cause psychosis, including:
Alcohol and certain illegal drugs, both during use and during withdrawal
Brain diseases, such as Parkinson's disease, Huntington's disease, and certain chromosomal disorders
Brain tumors or cysts
Dementia (including Alzheimer's disease)
HIV and other infections that affect the brain
Some prescription drugs, such as steroids and stimulants
Some types of epilepsy
Stroke

Psychosis (or psychotic symptoms) may also be found in:
Most people with schizophrenia
Some people with bipolar disorder (manic-depressive) or severe depression
Some personality disorders

I'm sorry, I'm still not seeing the connection with psychosis and Elisa's death.

I don't need definitions of psychosis or its related conditions. Psychology and brain and behavior is my area of expertise.

I'm curious as to why you think defining it is significant to this case, as I am not seeing the connection.

The descriptions of her behavior to others as I have seen them described in the record store, talkative, rapid speech, extremely social, are more consistent with mania, not psychosis.

As far as her behavior in the elevator, I do not see psychosis, I see ambien induced sleepwalking. I do not see street drugs.

 

[mj12]

Even what I have is not a direct quote but an officer's name is mentioned. Also, when I try to obtain the archived version of the article it has been removed. ** never mind... it's there (oops!)


"LOS ANGELES (CBSLA.com) - 6 days ago

"....The body of a 20-something woman was discovered in a water tank on top of a downtown Los Angeles hotel Tuesday. Police and firefighters were summoned to the Cecil Hotel at 640 South Main St. shortly after 10 a.m.,
according to LAPD Officer Bruce Borihanh. KNX 1070s Claudia Peschiutta reports guests were disturbed to learn the nude body of the woman was found inside of one of four large water tanks. ...."


http://www.niuzer.com/Los-Angeles-C...ter-Tank-Atop-Downtown-LA-Hotel-16555391.html

The LAPD name is referring to the quote before it that the body was discovered, according to LAPD Officer

Then after it, it says Claudia Peschiutta reports guests were disturbed to learn the nude body...

So thats two different stories there.

Sorry not trying to patronise, I just think this would be a crucial piece of information if this was confirmed. So until someone asks directly to the investigating officers if she was found nude or not, we have to go on whats been provided so far. If she was nude, I'm certain it would have been reported more widely before now -you know what the tabloid/sensationalist press are like! :drama:

 

[SCHMAE]

I'm sorry, I'm still not seeing the connection with psychosis and Elisa's death.

I don't need definitions of psychosis or its related conditions. Psychology and brain and behavior is my area of expertise.

I'm curious as to why you think defining it is significant to this case, as I am not seeing the connection.

I edited up there ^^^ to include why . sorry bout that

 

[PopeReal]

I'm sorry, I'm still not seeing the connection with psychosis and Elisa's death.

I don't need definitions of psychosis or its related conditions. Psychology and brain and behavior is my area of expertise.

I'm curious as to why you think defining it is significant to this case, as I am not seeing the connection.

Just want to add to this. I have seen many many words attached to Elisa (I think mostly because of the video) like psychosis, drugged, bi polar (which may be true), and even crazy.

No matter what state she was in it still doesn't explain how she got access to the roof and then the water tank. That is the key to the case to me. Who got her up there?

 

[ThinkHard]

I edited up there ^^^ to include why . sorry bout that

I still do not see psychosis in any of her described behavior, or in her behavior on the video. I see no evidence of street drugs, or alcohol either.

If she took a drug willingly, that showed the behavior we saw on the video, I am 90% sure, it was ambien, and nothing else.

 

[SCHMAE]

Actually that people with BPD can suffer psychosis is news to me too.
I would have thought , as you , that they did not. Go combining different
meds with different events and there is no telling what could happen, really.

 

[ThinkHard]

Just want to add to this. I have seen many many words attached to Elisa (I think mostly because of the video) like psychosis, drugged, bi polar (which may be true), and even crazy.

No matter what state she was in it still doesn't explain how she got access to the roof and then the water tank. That is the key to the case to me. Who got her up there?

Agreed. However I just want to point out that the assertstion she was depressed, bipolar, ADHD are based on her own public profiles, not on elevator footage.

My assertstion that she was ambien sleepwalking, is however based on her behavior in the elevator footage.

 

[SCHMAE]

I still do not see psychosis in any of her described behavior, or in her behavior on the video. I see no evidence of street drugs, or alcohol either.

If she took a drug willingly, that showed the behavior we saw on the video, I am 90% sure, it was ambien, and nothing else.

I'm more thinking of the possible behaviors after the video.

 

[ThinkHard]

Actually that people with BPD can suffer psychosis is news to me too.
I would have thought , as you , that they did not. Go combining different
meds with different events and there is no telling what could happen, really.

Well no it is not surprising that psychosis can exist with bipolar disorder. (More common in multi diagnosis cases).

I just have not seen anything yet that would lead me to believe elisa was suffering or had suffered from psychosis as a symptom of her illness.

 

[fred&edna]

The LAPD name is referring to the quote before it that the body was discovered, according to LAPD Officer

Then after it, it says Claudia Peschiutta reports guests were disturbed to learn the nude body...

So thats two different stories there.

Sorry not trying to patronise, I just think this would be a crucial piece of information if this was confirmed. So until someone asks directly to the investigating officers if she was found nude or not, we have to go on whats been provided so far. If she was nude, I'm certain it would have been reported more widely before now (you know what the tabloid/sensationalist press are like)

I understand what you're saying and I don't feel your words are patronizing... so all's good

It seemed there were reports that a nude body was found in the water tank and later that body was ID'd as Elisa. Maybe I can email a reporter to verify the source... it's worth a try, right?

 

[ThinkHard]

I'm more thinking of the possible behaviors after the video.

What do you mean?

How can we apply a brand new mental state to a victim, with no history of such psychosis and no indicators of psychosis up to that point?

She could have been in any state in the world for all we know.

Do you mean as a possible reason why she would crawl into the tank? I mean I guess its possible....but I'm not sure I'm in total agreement.

I more inclined to believe her state (ambien sleepwalking) made her a target.

 

[PopeReal]

Agreed. However I just want to point out that the assertstion she was depressed, bipolar, ADHD are based on her own public profiles, not on elevator footage.

My assertstion that she was ambien sleepwalking, is however based on her behavior in the elevator footage.

If she is sleepwalking, how difficult would it be for her to access the roof and water tank alone? Especially assuming she had never been up there before in her life?

 

[ThinkHard]

If she is sleepwalking, how difficult would it be for her to access the roof and water tank alone? Especially assuming she had never been up there before in her life?

Well if she was sleepwalking via ambien.....surprisingly quite possible. At least to make it up to the roof. The tanks I'm not so sure about. (Side note, though, if she had been on the roof, the dogs should have picked up on her sent, I have a suspicion she only made it to the roof, after her death, or at least after she lost consciousness).

Ambien sleepwalking isn't like normal sleepwalking, a person is much more lucid.

People drive cars on ambien. Go out get food on ambien....but with no recollection the next day. It's a scary drug.

 

[mj12]

I'm hoping the family and friends of Elisa get answers soon! The wait for the tox report will be agonising, plus with the media attention. On top of the mysterious circumstances of her death and the lift video.

 

[OCSlacker]

Well if she was sleepwalking via ambien.....surprisingly quite possible. At least to make it up to the roof. The tanks I'm not so sure about. (Side note, though, if she had been on the roof, the dogs should have picked up on her sent, I have a suspicion she only made it to the roof, after her death, or at least after she lost consciousness).

Ambien sleepwalking isn't like normal sleepwalking, a person is much more lucid.

People drive cars on ambien. Go out get food on ambien....but with no recollection the next day. It's a scary drug.

I have taken ambien and I am a notorious sleepwalker. My roommate has filmed me during a regular sleepwalking and on ambien. In both instances she was unable to tell I was not awake until I said something completely jibberish or did something completely off the wall. ( tried to put a supersoaker on my foot and yelled why the hell won't this slipper go on while on ambien & when just sleepwalking was found in the bathroom in front of the shower, when asked what I was doing, I said waiting for security to let me through). I have also been known to wash dishes and pack bags with toilet paper. So yeah I can see where you think this might be the case. However, usually something is off with what I am doing and it becomes obvious after a minute or so. I'll pack a bag full of toilet paper but I tear each square of toilet paper and fold it. I'll wash a dish but leave the water running etc. Oh and for some unknown reason, I don't ever have my glasses on when I sleepwalk. Ever and I am blind as a bat . My roommie now knows that is the key if I am roaming around at night. No glasses means I am not awake.

It would also make sense that she would take a sleeping pill since many reviews say the hotel is very loud at night. Outside noise such as sirens and people may have caused her to decide she needed a good nights sleep since she would be travelling the following day.

It may have caused her to go up to a different floor but don't think she went to the roof.. Just doesn't feel like she could still maneuver that climb on the tanks.

 

[tapu]

What do you mean?

How can we apply a brand new mental state to a victim, with no history of such psychosis and no indicators of psychosis up to that point?

She could have been in any state in the world for all we know.

Do you mean as a possible reason why she would crawl into the tank? I mean I guess its possible....but I'm not sure I'm in total agreement.

I more inclined to believe her state (ambien sleepwalking) made her a target.

I suggest that it is quite a flight of fancy to think we (or anyone, incl any expert in anything) can identify Elisa as being psychotic, manic, on prescription or street drugs--let alone specific ones, like Ambien--based on her actions in the elevator video. <modsnip>

 

[ThinkHard]

I have taken ambien and I am a notorious sleepwalker. My roommate has filmed me during a regular sleepwalking and on ambien. In both instances she was unable to tell I was not awake until I said something completely jibberish or did something completely off the wall. ( tried to put a supersoaker on my foot and yelled why the hell won't this slipper go on while on ambien & when just sleepwalking was found in the bathroom in front of the shower, when asked what I was doing, I said waiting for security to let me through). I have also been known to wash dishes and pack bags with toilet paper. So yeah I can see where you think this might be the case. However, usually something is off with what I am doing and it becomes obvious after a minute or so. I'll pack a bag full of toilet paper but I tear each square of toilet paper and fold it. I'll wash a dish but leave the water running etc. Oh and for some unknown reason, I don't ever have my glasses on when I sleepwalk. Ever and I am blind as a bat . My roommie now knows that is the key if I am roaming around at night. No glasses means I am not awake.

Exactly! This is exactly why I think elisa was on ambien in the video. Her actions are kind of normal but not really. They are deliberate, but don't make sense (pushing 4 buttons when you enter, dramatic hand gestures). Popping in and out f the elevator, more random vivid hand gestures.....pressing many more buttons and walking right out without waiting for the elevator to do something. Deliberate movements that don't make sense when observing them closely.

Also she wasnt wearing her glasses