Deceased/Not Found CA - Sierra LaMar, 15, Morgan Hill, 16 March 2012 #6 *A. Garcia-Torres guilty*

[nutkin]

I agree with the premise of your post, but it does seem short sided. If you are being abducted (or know you are in a deadly situation) and your hands are free, most people will instinctively grab at or jerk the steering wheel or attack the driver (eye gouging etc..)while the car is moving. There is a reason that abductors restrain or incapacitate their victims before taking them away, especially in a planned abduction. We also know that control is a strong motivating factor for most abductors, they like to control every aspect of their crime/victim.
In regards to this case, I would think a lone abductor would put a high priority on restraining her and he would need at least a minute to secure her, more if she struggled. OTOH, two or more abductors can grab and go with one of them restraining her. There is nothing to make me lean one way or the other here, but there are so many possibilities in this case and the info we are working with only diminishes the chances of her being a run away and not much else.

A quick wack to the back of the head worked for Ted Bundy. He abducted victims in well-trafficked areas.

 

[crystalgenie]

I have not been able to keep up with the thread for a few days but another poster pointed out the same thing I have been thinking. The friends either knew she was not going to be at school or just didn't think anything about it.

Have any of her friends, at this new school, been asked about her mood prior to her disappearance? Writing a paper about depression can put one in a dark place especially if they are already unhappy with their current life.

Has there been any answer as to why Sierra was moved in the middle of the school year? It is sad to go from being a cheerleader with many friends to the " new kid " who doesn't know anyone.

IMHO it seems that noone was paying any attention to Sierra. Her social network sites are not standard teenage BS. My daughter is 12 and there is no facebook, myspace, or chatrooms for her. I have always told her if you write down on a piece paper or type it on the internet it will follow for the rest of your life and it is not worth it.

15 is a difficult age for any kid but one that was so involved in her old school to be moved, in the middle of the year, to a new one can create big problems.

Did she have an older boyfriend at her old school?

I think she changed clothes, unless the perp has a shoe fetish... It really doesn't make any sense to have someone strip but leave their tennis shoes on. If they have shoes on it is easier run.

I hope she is alive and just ran away. I would question the friends at the old school with a bare light bulb hanging in their face...

I hope she is alive. It would be too heart-breaking if she wasn't.

 

[Frogzilla]

A quick wack to the back of the head worked for Ted Bundy. He abducted victims in well-trafficked areas.

Again I agree, but that is extremely short sided. In the post of yours that I responded to, you eluded to the idea that a lone abductor will restrain their victim in their car with child safety locks, my response was trying to say that I don't think that is any abductor's "plan" in how to keep their victim controlled.
In addition, do you remember all of the items they had found in Ted Bundy's trunk? They included masks, handcuffs, crowbar, trash bags, ropes among other items. Ted Bundy must not of felt that attacking them to remove them from the immediate scene was enough.

 

[nutkin]

Again I agree, but that is extremely short sided. In the post of yours that I responded to, you eluded to the idea that a lone abductor will restrain their victim in their car with child safety locks, my response was trying to say that I don't think that is any abductor's "plan" in how to keep their victim controlled.
In addition, do you remember all of the items they had found in Ted Bundy's trunk? They included masks, handcuffs, crowbar, trash bags, ropes among other items. Ted Bundy must not of felt that attacking them to remove them from the immediate scene was enough.

Ted Bundy was a very sick person who enjoyed torturing his victims in brutal and horrible ways once he moved them to a secondary location. Some he kept handcuffed or tied to trees for days before killing them. Furthermore, he also would break into some victims' homes and murder them there.

I stated the fact that cars come equipped with child locks as a simple explanation of how someone could keep a person in a car against their will. Of course, that isn't the only way.

And you would think it'd be instinct to attack someone who is attempting to abduct you, but it isn't instinctive to everyone or else it wouldn't happen.

What is extremely short-sighted is how people have repeatedly stated it had to have been multiple offenders because there is no way that one person could abduct a tiny 15-year-old girl against her will. That is simply false. Much stronger, wiser, and older people (men and women) are taken against their will by a single offender. Statistics state that it is likely a single offender.

For all anyone knows, it could have been 10 people, but that is highly unlikely. Coming up with a theory that may happen 1 out of 1000 times does not make a case any closer to being solved.

 

[Niner]

okay back... one thing when I leave at night about 4 to 5pm Pacific I've caught up and then when I get back in the morning sometimes there are about 10 more pages to read - and I think - Oh, they've found her, or some new evidence is revealed... but alas, just more discussions of theories, etc. - not that I don't like it - it's always good to see other people's perspective of a case!! :rocker:
Anyway...

There has to be DNA and fingerprints on the clothes if this is the case. Than the police would be releasing that info.

Yes, I agree - with this 'new' touch DNA technology would be good! Also, maybe fingerprints on the purse, as that looks like plastic, ?? yes? can't tell from the pictures!

I agree with your post and the key word I think is possibility. Kids are always planning or hoping for a plan for a sleepover or some activity. And lots of times it is spur of the moment, but they always want to be prepared. jmo

Just wondering if Marlene has said anything about Sierra doing sleepovers to take her clothes as they were that morning. You know calling at the last minutes after school? Don't recall seeing or reading anything of that sort!? Anyone? TIA!! :waitasec:

Is there anything in San Martin or Gilroy that (anyone familiar with the areas) you can think of would lead LE to search there or do you all think it's just a logical branching out of search parameters?

I have an "invisible friend" from another forum who lives right there - let me check with her - as I believe I saw her posting here earlier in the case!!

According to the Namus site she was wearing grey shoes and the text at 0711hrs was regarding meeting before school to go over some homework. Interesting.
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/show/14258

WOW! Very interesting indeed!! :what: You've got to believe the LE has already talked with this person... but I find that quite revealing, no wonder they didn't release that earlier! hmmmm.... :dunno:

 

[Dee226]

Cars doors generally do have locks on them. Child locks even, to where you cannot open the door from the inside of the car. People much older, wiser, and stronger are abducted regularly by a lone offender. In fact, the vast majority of abductions are committed by a single offender.

I'm aware of that. I discuss regularly cases with my daughter who has a degree in criminal justice and is currently taking forensic technology and courses on serial killers. I'm basing this on her implied willingness to go in the car since it appears that there wasn't a struggle, no one heard any screams, and her phone being tossed so quickly. Seems to me that it's lot for someone to drive, restrain her and toss her phone all at the same time.

 

[Dee226]

Ted Bundy was a very sick person who enjoyed torturing his victims in brutal and horrible ways once he moved them to a secondary location. Some he kept handcuffed or tied to trees for days before killing them. Furthermore, he also would break into some victims' homes and murder them there.

I stated the fact that cars come equipped with child locks as a simple explanation of how someone could keep a person in a car against their will. Of course, that isn't the only way.

And you would think it'd be instinct to attack someone who is attempting to abduct you, but it isn't instinctive to everyone or else it wouldn't happen.

What is extremely short-sighted is how people have repeatedly stated it had to have been multiple offenders because there is no way that one person could abduct a tiny 15-year-old girl against her will. That is simply false. Much stronger, wiser, and older people (men and women) are taken against their will by a single offender. Statistics state that it is likely a single offender.

For all anyone knows, it could have been 10 people, but that is highly unlikely. Coming up with a theory that may happen 1 out of 1000 times does not make a case any closer to being solved.

I think i've read the majority of these posts and i don't see people repeatedly stating there were multiple offenders. I've seen more suggesting a single perp than multiple. We're trying to think of possibilities and since we along with LE don't know who's responsible, any guess is just as good as another. I don't consider anyone here short-sided even if i have a different opinion of what may have happened.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I guess I thought if they were just searching new areas, not based on any new info, they would go ahead and take volunteers to use as many people as possible. The small number of LE-only searchers made me think (hope) they had specific reasons for being where they are.

One reason I can think of is if they are using dogs. The fewer people in an area, the easier it is for dogs to search. Dogs can also clear an area much faster than a human can (depending on exactly what the search is aimed at finding, of course).

 

[SurfieTX]

I'm aware of that. I discuss regularly cases with my daughter who has a degree in criminal justice and is currently taking forensic technology and courses on serial killers. I'm basing this on her implied willingness to go in the car since it appears that there wasn't a struggle, no one heard any screams, and her phone being tossed so quickly. Seems to me that it's lot for someone to drive, restrain her and toss her phone all at the same time.

I agree with you. Many have compared this to Holly Bobo. Holly screamed.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I agree with the premise of your post, but it does seem short sided. If you are being abducted (or know you are in a deadly situation) and your hands are free, most people will instinctively grab at or jerk the steering wheel or attack the driver (eye gouging etc..)while the car is moving. There is a reason that abductors restrain or incapacitate their victims before taking them away, especially in a planned abduction. We also know that control is a strong motivating factor for most abductors, they like to control every aspect of their crime/victim.
In regards to this case, I would think a lone abductor would put a high priority on restraining her and he would need at least a minute to secure her, more if she struggled. OTOH, two or more abductors can grab and go with one of them restraining her. There is nothing to make me lean one way or the other here, but there are so many possibilities in this case and the info we are working with only diminishes the chances of her being a run away and not much else.

It can go either way. The vast number of abductions are single perps, though.

In single perp cases I've read of, the victim is either hit on the head hard enough to cause unconsciousness, threatened with a weapon and/or placed in the passenger footwell of the vehicle.

The footwell actually works fairly well on its own as a restraint device for most adults. The victim cannot easily reach the driver but the driver can easily lean over to reach the victim.

 

[Sjsleuth83]

I'm aware of that. I discuss regularly cases with my daughter who has a degree in criminal justice and is currently taking forensic technology and courses on serial killers. I'm basing this on her implied willingness to go in the car since it appears that there wasn't a struggle, no one heard any screams, and her phone being tossed so quickly. Seems to me that it's lot for someone to drive, restrain her and toss her phone all at the same time.

Also, aren't child locks only on the back doors of a car? If she got in the car willingly and there was only one perp, it would be weird for her to night ride in the front.

Also, if the perp did hit her, I guess its possible he'd/they would drive for a bit, then throw the phone, and then drive a bit more, and throw the purse.

But more than likely, if this were the scenario, i'd think the phone and purse would have been thrown a bit closer to eachother. Although it is possible the perp(s) didn't want the purse to be to easy to find and knew the phone would be traceable.

A lot of IFs there.

One other thing ive considered, is how big this purse was. I know if I were getting into a car with a backpack, I probably wouldn't have room to put it in the front seat with me. It would either go in the back seat, or the trunk.

This could mean the phone was tossed, then there was a scuffle (or the perp had a weapon), then the perp stopped and through the purse.

Some interesting possibilities there, but I dont think they really reveal anything important about the case, because we cant determine if it were one or multiple perps from this information.

 

[Dee226]

I agree it could go either way. I stated originally that it could have been one person she was familiar with who offered her a ride to school and things turned bad when she found out he had no intention of taking her to school. I'm not leaning toward either way, just trying to think of possibilities. I do believe that she intended to go to school that morning but someone had other plans for her.

 

[GrainneDhu]

A quick wack to the back of the head worked for Ted Bundy. He abducted victims in well-trafficked areas.

We know, however, from Carol DaRonch (his surviving victim) that he also relied on deception on occasion to get his victim into his car willingly. In her case, he posed as an undercover policeman to approach her in a mall. He told her that her car had been broken into and she needed to come with him to the police station to file a complaint.

She got into his VW Bug and as soon as she started getting suspicious, he pulled onto the shoulder and tried to handcuff her. In the scuffle, she ended up with both cuffs on one wrist. She was then able to open the door and get away (a couple in an oncoming car stopped for her; otherwise it is likely Bundy would have pursued her).

Janice Ott and Denise Naslund, the Lake Sammamish victims, also probably left with Bundy willingly. On that occasion, he had a (fake) cast on his arm and approached a number of women asking for help unloading a small sailboat from his car. When they got to the car and saw no sailboat, he told them that it was at his cabin a short drive away.

At least five women were suspicious enough not to leave with him but the two victims probably left willingly.

There are other occasions where Bundy was seen with a cast on his arm or leg, presumably to deceive potential victims.

 

[epiphany]

If lone perp, handcuffs may have been used immediately to restrain her (once in the car).

 

[shana]

Without even wracking my brain too hard, I can think of several ruses a lone perp could use on a 15-yo girl. Imagine this one, for example: Perp is anxious, says with urgency, "Your Mother was just in an accident up the road. They sent me here to pick you up..."

 

[liltexans]

We have also discussed the possibility that the perp may have used a taser on Sierra. How long does one normally remain incapacitated after being tased?

 

[Frogzilla]

It can go either way. The vast number of abductions are single perps, though.

In single perp cases I've read of, the victim is either hit on the head hard enough to cause unconsciousness, threatened with a weapon and/or placed in the passenger footwell of the vehicle.

The footwell actually works fairly well on its own as a restraint device for most adults. The victim cannot easily reach the driver but the driver can easily lean over to reach the victim.

I agree with everything you have said, except the part about the footwell. In most cases where the victim is placed into the footwell of the car, there is usually two or more abductors with one keeping them in the footwell, a lone abductor who restrains the victim and then places them into the footwell, or one or more abductors who put the victim into the footwell because they did not plan on taking them very far. Also, it is very difficult for a driver to reach over to the passenger side footwell and have much force to push their victim back down, get into your vehicle and try to reach over there, keeping in mind the person could be resisting and you would be driving as well.
Putting an unrestrained victim in the footwell would be equal to having them sit in the front seat, except they are out of view. A lone abductor will not fire a gun inside a moving vehicle, because the concussive sound would stun him. It would be very difficult to stab at somebody with a knife while you are driving and they are moving around.
I'm not trying to say that an abductor has never placed an unrestrained victim into a car floorwell, i'm saying that it requires a certain set of circumstances and cooperation from the victim and a level of trust/ignorance on the part of the abductor.

 

[sarx]

We have also discussed the possibility that the perp may have used a taser on Sierra. How long does one normally remain incapacitated after being tased?

Depends on the taser, but generally leave you pretty dazed and confused for quite a while.

 

[Kat]

Cars doors generally do have locks on them. Child locks even, to where you cannot open the door from the inside of the car. People much older, wiser, and stronger are abducted regularly by a lone offender. In fact, the vast majority of abductions are committed by a single offender.

Off topic but Ted Bundy altered the passanger door IIRC to not allow a victim to exit the car once they were inside. My memory was nudged when I saw your post. Sorry, ignore my off topic comment everyone!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree with the premise of your post, but it does seem short sided. If you are being abducted (or know you are in a deadly situation) and your hands are free, most people will instinctively grab at or jerk the steering wheel or attack the driver (eye gouging etc..)while the car is moving. There is a reason that abductors restrain or incapacitate their victims before taking them away, especially in a planned abduction. We also know that control is a strong motivating factor for most abductors, they like to control every aspect of their crime/victim.
In regards to this case, I would think a lone abductor would put a high priority on restraining her and he would need at least a minute to secure her, more if she struggled. OTOH, two or more abductors can grab and go with one of them restraining her. There is nothing to make me lean one way or the other here, but there are so many possibilities in this case and the info we are working with only diminishes the chances of her being a run away and not much else.

I dont think the post was short sided at all. We have read countless cases through the years where one lone predator was capable of kidnapping a victim all by themselves by getting them into their vehicle.

Until we are in that situation we cannot say with any certainty what it would take to subdue someone. Some victims will just freeze and be compliant ..others will kick and scream and try to get away and even that is not successful. A person capable of doing this rules by fear and intimidation. When a victim faces the monster of their nightmares we have no clue what is going through their minds at the time. I really think abductions like this happen so fast without any warning that the victim does not have time to react before they are in a vehicle and leaving the area with a person, who I have no doubt, is threatening to kill them if they dont do what they tell them to do.

I do think it is very possible for one lone perp to kidnap Sierra although I certainly know that others could be involved too.

IMO