GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #11

[AgentFrankLundy]

What questions would ya'll like the Macon.com reporters to answer ? I will submit them , might not get a response , but its worth a try

 

[WhoaJo]

There is a thread about these remains in the Unidentified forum with a link to this article.
http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index.cfm/fa/viewstory/story_ID/24187
Some of the comments mention that homeless people are known to live in the woods where the skull was found. Prince Frederick is about 60 miles south of North Laurel, BTW. I'd be very surprised if the remains are Lauren's, but yes, it would rule out McD.

I don't see how this would rule out McD, Bessie. In the unlikely event that this is part of Lauren's remains, we would have to discount the evidence the police already have against McD and make lots of assumptions: that he couldn't have possibly made the trip himself, that he didn't have an accomplice, etc.

On the other hand, if it turns out that some credible proof should indicate someone else, that's where we have to go. The point is justice, wherever it leads.

 

[Givsmetheshivers]

This is very interesting. I think it's interesting that at a time when funding is tight, so much would be put into a humanitarian mission. I'm not saying this to be an <unusual person> or because I begrudge Lauren's family the resources. I am saying it because I am puzzled.

My Mom and I are perfect strangers that donated a large amount of money to this search. If we did that, then I think that her freinds and family members did similar or better.

 

[al66pine]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...alvert-county/2011/09/19/gIQAPXn1eK_blog.html
link re skull found in Md. woods

If the skull is LG's, such a long drive w. it seems fraught w. risks:

1. Poss of LE making traffic-stop, vehicle search, and LE finding skull.
2. Even w/out LE finding skull, the drive is likely, imo to generate E-trail:
a. Gas purchases, food purchases, & other CC or DC use,
b. ATM withdrawals of cash on trip.
c. Cell phone pings on towers.
3. Surv. cameras en route.

Even avoiding all those, still a risk of---
--auto accident,
--traffic ticket,
--being seen by someone he knows, away from Macon w. his being in "wrong place,"
which w/nullify any poss. "I was studying for bar exam 24/7 in Macon" alibi.

Perp c/anticpate & work around some E-trail issues, but c/not avoid all other risks.

If the newly found skull is LG's, and if SMcD transported such a distance,
then why would he have placed the torso in rollaway bin at B-Hall apts,
instead of placing in his car and driving elsewhere to dispose of it?

IOW, if he thought transporting remains a couple miles to dispose of around Macon area was too risky,
why w/he have thought transporting skull several hundred miles was an acceptable risk?

 

[Backwoods]

My Mom and I are perfect strangers that donated a large amount of money to this search. If we did that, then I think that her freinds and family members did similar or better.

Apparently -- as best we could tell at the time this discussion (in which PlainJaneDoe posted what you quoted) was taking place -- the donated funds were NOT used for the search that took place -- since instead that search was made possible by donations and waivers and such from corporations and agencies involved, as well as the donation of time and equipment and search skills.

PlainJane, please correct me if I am wrong, but I think that was what you were referencing, wasn't it -- that in tight economic times, such donations from businesses and agencies were probably not easy to find "in the budget" for a strictly good-will mission, without some hope of finding evidence as well.

I really don't think she was saying that she found it odd that individuals would make donations to the cause of a search, if they were able. I think it's wonderful that such donations have been made -- maybe the time will come when they will be needed to search another area.

 

[Backwoods]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...alvert-county/2011/09/19/gIQAPXn1eK_blog.html
link re skull found in Md. woods

If the skull is LG's, such a long drive w. it seems fraught w. risks:

1. Poss of LE making traffic-stop, vehicle search, and LE finding skull.
2. Even w/out LE finding skull, the drive is likely, imo to generate E-trail:
a. Gas purchases, food purchases, & other CC or DC use,
b. ATM withdrawals of cash on trip.
c. Cell phone pings on towers.
3. Surv. cameras en route.

Even avoiding all those, still a risk of---
--auto accident,
--traffic ticket,
--being seen by someone he knows, away from Macon w. his being in "wrong place,"
which w/nullify any poss. "I was studying for bar exam 24/7 in Macon" alibi.

Perp c/anticpate & work around some E-trail issues, but c/not avoid all other risks.

If the newly found skull is LG's, and if SMcD transported such a distance,
then why would he have placed the torso in rollaway bin at B-Hall apts,
instead of placing in his car and driving elsewhere to dispose of it?

IOW, if he thought transporting remains a couple miles to dispose of around Macon area was too risky,
why w/he have thought transporting skull several hundred miles was an acceptable risk?

You make some good points -- though who can tell what a person in such a situation (and mental state perhaps) might and might not risk. There could definitely be all kinds of strange symbolism in such a placement -- it certainly wouldn't have been done for convenience.

Of course, too, as someone mentioned the possibility of an accomplice: Someone else might have taken the skull there.

Honestly, I find it very hard to believe that there really is much chance that the skull found in Maryland is LG's.

 

[bessie]

Yesterday morning, when I said McD would be ruled out, I based my opinion on timing and some thoughts about McD's personality. From 10:30 Saturday night until Tuesday morning, when I believe it was confirmed McD attended class, provides about a 60 hour window in which he would have to commit the murder and dismemberment, clean up, drive 700 miles to Maryland, find this particular spot (which is 60 miles south of North Laurel, incidentally), and then drive 700 miles back to Macon. It's not impossible, but nearly, imo. Then as Al66pine suggests, the risks involved in such a journey would be extraordinary, which adds to the unlikelihood. Everything we've learned about McD seems to indicate that he is a homebody and a creature of habit, meticulous, too. Based mainly on what I've gleaned from his internet posts, he appears to exist within a narrow comfort zone. That's why I had some hope LG's remains would be found in the landfill. Whatever he did, I believe he did it close to the apartment and/or in a place familiar to him.

WhoaJo made the point that we shouldn't overlook the known evidence against McD. Part of that evidence is a plan to commit the perfect murder that he allegedly talked about to his roommate. A reckless 1400 mile trek with a murder victim's partial remains in tow doesn't fit in with such a plan, imo. WJ also mentioned an accomplice, which I hadn't given thought to. If the MD remains did turn out to be LG, then I suppose we'd have to consider the possibility of a second perp. But in theory, involving another party increases the risk of detection and is also ill-suited to a "perfect murder", unless part of the plan involved immediately eliminating the accomplice. Possible, but a stretch. McD's a loner who had a difficult time enlisting a volunteer for a school project. Why would he buddy up to commit murder? Nah, IF he did murder LG, I'd bet dollars to donuts he acted alone, and the entire horrible scenario played out within a stone's throw of BH.

For the family's sake, I'd like to believe the Maryland finding holds answers, but I don't. The consolation is that another family's mystery might be put to rest, and that would be a good thing, too.

 

[bessie]

What questions would ya'll like the Macon.com reporters to answer ? I will submit them , might not get a response , but its worth a try

I had left for work by the time you posted this. Did you follow the chat? Anything new or of interest?

 

[AgentFrankLundy]

I had left for work by the time you posted this. Did you follow the chat? Anything new or of interest?

Yes, I did follow it . Absolutely nothing new or of interest . I think (maybe this is a good thing ) people are getting bored with this case , at least since there is nothing substantial going on at this moment . I also think LE is keeping a lot of stuff away from the media , or the media is keeping a lot of stuff away from the public. Maryland skull was not mentioned.
Twice asked about when will we get forensics, when will it go to grand jury.
The answer is they don't know.I talked to a lawyer the other day about the forensics and why is it taking so long. He says, and Amy Leigh and Joe also said, this is a perception probably based on TV shows solving things in 60 minutes. The FBI has 200 pieces of evidence form this case alone. They have had budget cuts, and are dealing with a lot more things than just this one case, and it takes time. I am still not sure it should take this much time, (2 1/2 months now) but sounded plausible .

 

[pearl]

3 crime scenes, 200 pieces of evidence. I think LE has SM signed, sealed, and waiting to be delivered to a Bibb County grand jury. I think they have a lot more than what LE has made public with the warrants, etc. I think that what they have is enough and are just waiting for all results to be returned so that people can't claim that evidence was overlooked or ignored. We can debate and have debated about the known evidence. Is the hacksaw packaging found in SM's apartment for the hacksaw found in the storage closet or did someone plant the packaging or hacksaw to frame SM? Did SM know he had a master key or not? Did SM or someone else put Lauren's torso in the trash can? I guess there could be "someone" else, however, SM is the common denominator in all the evidence we know about. But, the famous TV interview with "Body?" is all SM. I think we are looking at a guilty man there. Of course, this is all my opinion.

 

[3doglady]

3 crime scenes, 200 pieces of evidence. I think LE has SM signed, sealed, and waiting to be delivered to a Bibb County grand jury. I think they have a lot more than what LE has made public with the warrants, etc. I think that what they have is enough and are just waiting for all results to be returned so that people can't claim that evidence was overlooked or ignored. We can debate and have debated about the known evidence. Is the hacksaw packaging found in SM's apartment for the hacksaw found in the storage closet or did someone plant the packaging or hacksaw to frame SM? Did SM know he had a master key or not? Did SM or someone else put Lauren's torso in the trash can? I guess there could be "someone" else, however, SM is the common denominator in all the evidence we know about. But, the famous TV interview with "Body?" is all SM. I think we are looking at a guilty man there. Of course, this is all my opinion.

I believe that SM is guilty also. However LE sent 200 pieces of potential evidence. According to Patterson's testimony there is no forensic evidence linking SM to the hacksaw. Two and a half months seems like a long time not to get some type of forensic evidence back.

 

[tomkat]

Yea, tomkat I got it.. As I said in my thinking about it while posting about a gunshot wound other things relating to that came to my mind and I posted about them.. I understood your post exactly for what it was and nothing more.. Anything I chose to further elaborate about a gunshot were of my own thoughts.. The only thing that was directly related to your post was my stating that of course it's quite obvious that if a gunshot wound were to have been discovered that it woukd be investigated..

??????? Just stating a few things too.

 

[bessie]

I believe that SM is guilty also. However LE sent 200 pieces of potential evidence. According to Patterson's testimony there is no forensic evidence linking SM to the hacksaw. Two and a half months seems like a long time not to get some type of forensic evidence back.

I wish we could find out if McD submitted a DNA sample. I don't see how he can be cleared without it. I've forgotten which question Patterson was asked when he hesitated so long and wanted to confer with Winters. Was that in reference to the hacksaw? Guess it's time to review. :book:

 

[al66pine]

A few posts (~#344)above:
&#8220;LE sent 200 pieces of potential evidence.&#8221;
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - -- - - - - -- - - - - -
Maybe quibbling about words here (not trying to be a smart-butt).
Technically, isn&#8217;t anything and everything only potential evidence,
until it is actually offered/introduced by prosecutor or defense in court, and judge allows it in?

As to those particular 200 pieces, if SMcD goes to trial, poss that some will not be offered into evd. by either side???
=======================================================
Also a few posts (~345) above:
&#8220;just waiting for all results to be returned so that people can't claim that evidence was overlooked or ignored.&#8221;

I don&#8217;t know about poss of that &#8216;claim&#8217; at GrJury stage.

The ignoring/overlooking issue seems, imo, like a line of questioning and argument for defense at trial:
&#8220;Ofcr. Joe Blow of MPD, you inventoried 200 pieces and sent to FBI for testing? You got all 200 back?&#8221;
Then w. other witnesses, brings out that there were 5 or 100 or 195 pieces that State did not offer into evd.,
so those (# of ) pieces did not indicate SMcD&#8217;s contact (hair, fingerprints, handwriting, footprints, DNA, etc.)
therefore
in final argument, defense says, those pieces point to the &#8216;real killer who is still out there.&#8217;

Maybe, instead of using a couple &#8220;lesser&#8221; pieces (like hair or fiber) w. test results pointing to SMcD,
before going to GrJury, State is waiting for test result for one specific piece w. more &#8220;impact.&#8221; IDK, just a poss.

 

[bessie]

Maybe, instead of using a couple “lesser” pieces (like hair or fiber) w. test results pointing to SMcD,
before going to GrJury, State is waiting for test result for one specific piece w. more “impact.” IDK, just a poss.

respectfully snipped
Makes sense to me. Perhaps a piece of key evidence that will reveal something about the manner of Lauren's death with a direct link to McD. That's probably more wishful thinking on my part, as ThinMan would say, but it's possible.

 

[Backwoods]

I believe that SM is guilty also. However LE sent 200 pieces of potential evidence. According to Patterson's testimony there is no forensic evidence linking SM to the hacksaw. Two and a half months seems like a long time not to get some type of forensic evidence back.

Still not convinced of his guilt here. On that side, though, I keep remembering what someone (sorry I can't remember for sure who) suggested here after the commitment hearing -- that LE might have had, by that time, some type of informal or verbal confirmation (or strong "hint"", shall we say) about forensic results linking SM but with the formal report purposely held back by whatever agency at that point ... to guard against defense gaining knowledge of it at the hearing.

By now, though -- well, I would think it would have come on through formally.

 

[Backwoods]

I wish we could find out if McD submitted a DNA sample. I don't see how he can be cleared without it. I've forgotten which question Patterson was asked when he hesitated so long and wanted to confer with Winters. Was that in reference to the hacksaw? Guess it's time to review. :book:

I wish so, too, bessie.

I can't get the copy of the hearing I saved to play (my computer is just too slow, I think) so it is hard for me to review it. I'm hoping to upgrade a little soon -- maybe I will be able to watch the whole thing through again, then, as I have been wanting to. I do think one of the longer hesitations was regarding the hacksaw and evidence (maybe DNA) linking it to SM. I'm thinking that Patterson hesitated quite a while and then answered something like, "Not that I'm aware of." Could be sort of cryptic...

I wish also we knew something, almost anything, about SM's verifiable whereabouts during any of the time that Lauren was "missing". Well, guess we do know about a couple of bar prep classes ... but other than that, I mean. Did the Wal-Mart trip occur during that time or not (wish we knew). Did anybody see him out and about around town, even in the apartment complex...? I'm sure LE has some of the answers -- just wish we had a few!

 

[Backwoods]

Yesterday morning, when I said McD would be ruled out, I based my opinion on timing and some thoughts about McD's personality. From 10:30 Saturday night until Tuesday morning, when I believe it was confirmed McD attended class, provides about a 60 hour window in which he would have to commit the murder and dismemberment, clean up, drive 700 miles to Maryland, find this particular spot (which is 60 miles south of North Laurel, incidentally), and then drive 700 miles back to Macon. It's not impossible, but nearly, imo. Then as Al66pine suggests, the risks involved in such a journey would be extraordinary, which adds to the unlikelihood. Everything we've learned about McD seems to indicate that he is a homebody and a creature of habit, meticulous, too. Based mainly on what I've gleaned from his internet posts, he appears to exist within a narrow comfort zone. That's why I had some hope LG's remains would be found in the landfill. Whatever he did, I believe he did it close to the apartment and/or in a place familiar to him.

WhoaJo made the point that we shouldn't overlook the known evidence against McD. Part of that evidence is a plan to commit the perfect murder that he allegedly talked about to his roommate. A reckless 1400 mile trek with a murder victim's partial remains in tow doesn't fit in with such a plan, imo. WJ also mentioned an accomplice, which I hadn't given thought to. If the MD remains did turn out to be LG, then I suppose we'd have to consider the possibility of a second perp. But in theory, involving another party increases the risk of detection and is also ill-suited to a "perfect murder", unless part of the plan involved immediately eliminating the accomplice. Possible, but a stretch. McD's a loner who had a difficult time enlisting a volunteer for a school project. Why would he buddy up to commit murder? Nah, IF he did murder LG, I'd bet dollars to donuts he acted alone, and the entire horrible scenario played out within a stone's throw of BH.

For the family's sake, I'd like to believe the Maryland finding holds answers, but I don't. The consolation is that another family's mystery might be put to rest, and that would be a good thing, too.

about the red bolding: As I've already said, I do find the skull-in-Maryland connection highly unlikely -- but, it still
spooked me a little to read your comment about a possibly-disappearing accomplice just after I had run across this link to an article from The Baltimore Sun from July 20 of this year:

QUOTE:
Man walking on beach finds skull

"A human skull found on a beach in Kent County belonged to man who was killed with blunt force trauma to the head, Maryland State Police said on Wednesday. ..."

more at: http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/blog/2011/07/man_walking_on_beach_finds_sku.html

eta: I now see these remains are also covered in a WS thread: MD MD - Tolchester Beach - Male Skull, 2011 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[bessie]

Another skull found in Maryland?? That's two in two months, ninety miles from each other and on opposite sides of the Chesapeake. I don't think they're related to Lauren, but I wonder if they're related to each other. Interesting.

 

[al66pine]

Okay, I&#8217;m game to speculate until we learn more of the two skulls in MD.

If SMcD is the perp re LG, and
If SMcD had an accomplice, and
If accomplice transported LG&#8217;s skull from GA to Md woods, and
If accomplice dumped LG&#8217;s skull in Md woods, and
If accomplice&#8217;s skull was dumped on Md. beach and located there,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
First,
How did accomplice get from Macon to MD, to place skull in Md woods?
(Poss. = SMcD & accomplice shared car for 1st leg of trip?)
Second,
How did accomplice&#8217;s skull get dumped on beach?
(Poss. = SMcD killed accomplice just after they jointly dumped LG&#8217;s skull, and then SMcD placed skull on beach to be found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If above spec&#8217;tns are true,
Then what purpose did accomplice serve for SMcD? Maybe not much.

Accomplice --
---not save SMcD inconvenience, time, & $$$ re trip from GA to MD & back:
he still went, imo.
--- not reduce risk of GA to MD trip and back, as risk to SMcD was same whether accomplice was with him, or if SMcD traveled alone, imo.

Adding an accomplice increases risks of detection re crime, as Bessie noted above.

Until we have ID&#8217;s on both skulls, no further spec&#8217;tns about them from me.