GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #14

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Hello everyone! This is my first post here. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading the discussion since I first heard about the case a few weeks ago. I kept myself purposefully in the dark regarding certain developments and instead read them as they unfolded, like some strange, retrospective mystery. As a current Georgia resident/native with ties to both Mercer and Agnes Scott (several friends were enrolled concurrently with Lauren), this case has definitely touched me more than others have, not to mention everyone's respectful handling of it here.

I'm going to do my best not to be redundant or attempt to revive any long since passed-on horses, but am I mistaken in thinking that thing about somebody coming forward (by contacting the defense) as the author of the BBQ post hasn't been discussed yet? I only read this information on a "law" site I'm not certain we're allowed to discuss specifically, so bear with me as I get a feel for the rules.

Onto some late-to-the-party speculation.. The more I read up on all the motions filed recently by the defense, the more I wonder if this wasn't the "plan" all along. It seems like so many pieces of (highly circumstantial) evidence are downright unrelated to each other. The extent of SM's meticulous planning vs. his carelessness has been widely debated, especially with regards to the torso disposal, but I'm starting to think that might have been part of the plan too. If SM was expecting authorities at the apartment complex, he would've known a grotesque discovery like that would've prompted panic and potentially hasty action on the part of LE. Having a presumably in depth understanding of what is and isn't admissible, and with Casey Anthony's case fresh on his mind, what if SM was banking on some subtle procedural errors in evidence seizure to significantly weaken the state's case? I don't know how frequently the defense gets evidence thrown out, and what they want thrown out now is a BIG deal (IMO), so this is obviously all just weak speculation.

If we're to believe TM's testimony, SM has been thinking about details like shoe size and being identified by his hair for years now. The fact that he let himself be identified by security camera looking at boat anchors—that he didn't buy, right?—makes me think he could've been playing a game of circumstantial evidence, a choose-your-own-murder-method wherein LE has to see how rain ponchos, rope, boat anchors, etc all fit in, and whether any of them do at all. Perhaps he intentionally used some sort of weak legalese when he allegedly did not consent to a search, knowing they would enter his apartment anyway—where he left further puzzle pieces (as promised to detectives) like the three (!) guns on his bed, the decorative weapons, and the cooler, none of which garnered any forensic evidence (AFAIK), but all of which appeared immediately suspicious to LE. If he went as far as painting over walls and scrubbing every impacted surface, surely he'd have time to arrange these things in a less bizarre manner, or even leave them in Lilburn (again, knowing what connotations their discovery would have to LE, especially after what would then appear to be an erroneous mention of a "small handgun" in the interview. Is it still a red herring if it's planted with the expectation that someone will identify it as such?)

This doesn't necessarily explain the condom confession, since as you all have pointed out, he could've so easily just said they were his sister's/free from health events on campus/etc that he had lying around just in case. I don't buy that he confessed to that to explain the keys, because he could've tossed those in a river in the days he had between the murder and the arrest. It's equally unlikely to think he threw those tidbits in to play his game on extra hard mode as it is to think he was playing a game of circumstantiality in the first place—but IMO, he knew he couldn't guarantee a complete lack of forensic evidence, so why not try to hide it in a mess of unrelated detail that would self-destruct in confusion before it could even make it to trial, all the while making it look like prosecution was crying wolf?


:welcome:
Welcome to Websleuths, bettiepageturner!

It's good to have new eyes and a new voice on Lauren's threads.

bbm (bolded by me) in your post above: About that post you asked whether we had discussed/can discuss: Yes, we can and have discussed it. If you go way back to Lauren's thread #12, to this post of mine ...

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 2011 June 27 - #12


... you can start there and see the stuff about the post unfold (over several threads maybe), beginning with some of us viewing a live feed of the bond hearing at which then-DA Greg Winters read the post aloud.
 
Hello everyone! This is my first post here. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading the discussion since I first heard about the case a few weeks ago. I kept myself purposefully in the dark regarding certain developments and instead read them as they unfolded, like some strange, retrospective mystery. As a current Georgia resident/native with ties to both Mercer and Agnes Scott (several friends were enrolled concurrently with Lauren), this case has definitely touched me more than others have, not to mention everyone's respectful handling of it here.

I'm going to do my best not to be redundant or attempt to revive any long since passed-on horses, but am I mistaken in thinking that thing about somebody coming forward (by contacting the defense) as the author of the BBQ post hasn't been discussed yet? I only read this information on a "law" site I'm not certain we're allowed to discuss specifically, so bear with me as I get a feel for the rules.

Onto some late-to-the-party speculation.. The more I read up on all the motions filed recently by the defense, the more I wonder if this wasn't the "plan" all along. It seems like so many pieces of (highly circumstantial) evidence are downright unrelated to each other. The extent of SM's meticulous planning vs. his carelessness has been widely debated, especially with regards to the torso disposal, but I'm starting to think that might have been part of the plan too. If SM was expecting authorities at the apartment complex, he would've known a grotesque discovery like that would've prompted panic and potentially hasty action on the part of LE. Having a presumably in depth understanding of what is and isn't admissible, and with Casey Anthony's case fresh on his mind, what if SM was banking on some subtle procedural errors in evidence seizure to significantly weaken the state's case? I don't know how frequently the defense gets evidence thrown out, and what they want thrown out now is a BIG deal (IMO), so this is obviously all just weak speculation.

If we're to believe TM's testimony, SM has been thinking about details like shoe size and being identified by his hair for years now. The fact that he let himself be identified by security camera looking at boat anchors—that he didn't buy, right?—makes me think he could've been playing a game of circumstantial evidence, a choose-your-own-murder-method wherein LE has to see how rain ponchos, rope, boat anchors, etc all fit in, and whether any of them do at all. Perhaps he intentionally used some sort of weak legalese when he allegedly did not consent to a search, knowing they would enter his apartment anyway—where he left further puzzle pieces (as promised to detectives) like the three (!) guns on his bed, the decorative weapons, and the cooler, none of which garnered any forensic evidence (AFAIK), but all of which appeared immediately suspicious to LE. If he went as far as painting over walls and scrubbing every impacted surface, surely he'd have time to arrange these things in a less bizarre manner, or even leave them in Lilburn (again, knowing what connotations their discovery would have to LE, especially after what would then appear to be an erroneous mention of a "small handgun" in the interview. Is it still a red herring if it's planted with the expectation that someone will identify it as such?)

This doesn't necessarily explain the condom confession, since as you all have pointed out, he could've so easily just said they were his sister's/free from health events on campus/etc that he had lying around just in case. I don't buy that he confessed to that to explain the keys, because he could've tossed those in a river in the days he had between the murder and the arrest. It's equally unlikely to think he threw those tidbits in to play his game on extra hard mode as it is to think he was playing a game of circumstantiality in the first place—but IMO, he knew he couldn't guarantee a complete lack of forensic evidence, so why not try to hide it in a mess of unrelated detail that would self-destruct in confusion before it could even make it to trial, all the while making it look like prosecution was crying wolf?

I'm sure I replied to this post
Again, thanks for the new insight.
I too wondered about that and had mentinoed early on that SM KNEW about search warrants, if there wasn't one, then he was on his way to setting them up to fail and now he sits on the defense team; his own!
DOes look suspicious about the guns lined up on the bed but pshychopaths tend to have shallow sense of right and wrong, and dont think to cover up the obvious, so experts have said
I didn't know or remember about him looking at boat anchors, I thought camping equipment
 
I'm sure I replied to this post
Again, thanks for the new insight.
I too wondered about that and had mentinoed early on that SM KNEW about search warrants, if there wasn't one, then he was on his way to setting them up to fail and now he sits on the defense team; his own!
DOes look suspicious about the guns lined up on the bed but pshychopaths tend to have shallow sense of right and wrong, and dont think to cover up the obvious, so experts have said
I didn't know or remember about him looking at boat anchors, I thought camping equipment

That could be true about psychopaths, especially those on their own high from having "gotten away with it." I only mention it because of SM's previous detailed theorizing on getting away with something by changing the volume of his hair and shoe size— though I guess in his mind the scheme would've played out so perfectly he'd never get searched, hence no obsessive pre-planning for that.

Lauren's family cited the anchors when they were explaining their reasoning for wanting to search SM's grandfather's farm, where there are multiple bodies of water, apparently. I haven't seen the Wal Mart footage mentioned in any official document, so I guess I should've specified that as rumor?
 
That could be true about psychopaths, especially those on their own high from having "gotten away with it." I only mention it because of SM's previous detailed theorizing on getting away with something by changing the volume of his hair and shoe size— though I guess in his mind the scheme would've played out so perfectly he'd never get searched, hence no obsessive pre-planning for that.

Lauren's family cited the anchors when they were explaining their reasoning for wanting to search SM's grandfather's farm, where there are multiple bodies of water, apparently. I haven't seen the Wal Mart footage mentioned in any official document, so I guess I should've specified that as rumor?
Welcome to Websleuths, bettiepageturner.

The Wal-Mart footage isn't a rumor. It's mentioned in the wrongful death suit, paragraph 21.
http://media.macon.com/smedia/2013/06/18/17/40/JLYDh.So.71.pdf#storylink=relast
 
McDaniel answers federal lawsuit, denies involvement in Giddings slaying

In a federal court filing, accused killer Stephen McDaniel has denied having any involvement in the slaying and dismemberment of his Mercer University classmate or interfering with her burial. ...

...Floyd Buford, one of McDaniel’s criminal attorneys, filed an answer to the lawsuit on McDaniel’s behalf Tuesday.

In the 13-page document, Buford contends McDaniel didn’t participate in any events associated with Giddings’ death.

Contacted Wednesday, Buford declined to comment about whether McDaniel will oppose a search of his grandfather’s property. ...
read more at: http://www.macon.com/2013/07/10/2551176_mcdaniel-answers-federal-lawsuit.html
 
From Backwoods' link above:

"Buying a hacksaw and ingredients to make chloroform."

Is this the first we've heard about buying chloroform ingredients? I don't remember it being discussed before.


pearl, as I recall, it's this way: buying bleach "and other ingredients" to make chloroform is alleged in the civil suit wording only.

We had previously heard -- in the fairly recent macon.com report that mentioned the Wal-Mart footage and receipts for items bought at Kroger in previous months using SM's shopper's discount card -- that a small bottle (48 oz., I believe it was) of bleach had been purchased.

So don't know about additional "ingredients". Kind of made me want to google "how to make chloroform", but I thought better of it -- Lord knows, we've seen that doesn't look good if your computer is ever scrutinized.

I'll try to find the links on this for you later -- kinda having a rough day.
 
Too late for me to edit my earlier post to add links, so quoting that post and adding the links into the quote:

pearl, as I recall, it's this way: buying bleach "and other ingredients" to make chloroform is alleged in the civil suit wording only.

Adding quote and link here:

From the wording of the civil suit document:


... Prior to June 30, 2011, McDaniel acquired the components to make chloroform, including bleach. ...
As for the link, I can't figure out how to link directly to the pdf of the civil suit document, but if you go to this link:

http://www.macon.com/2013/06/17/2522198/wrongful-death-suit-seeks-search.html

...scroll down and look on the right side of the page for the heading "Other related content" and you can link to the pdf from there.



We had previously heard -- in the fairly recent macon.com report that mentioned the Wal-Mart footage and receipts for items bought at Kroger in previous months using SM's shopper's discount card -- that a small bottle (48 oz., I believe it was) of bleach had been purchased.

Adding quote and link here:

McDaniel lawyers want knives, rope, bleach excluded as evidence

...The attorneys, Floyd Buford and Franklin J. Hogue, make a similar argument about buys McDaniel is said to have made at a Kroger between April and June 2011: a pair of 8-inch scissors, a 48-ounce jug of bleach, household rubber gloves, Scotch-Brite pads and allergy tablets. ...

http://www.macon.com/2013/05/31/2499027/mcdaniel-lawyers-want-store-bought.html


So don't know about additional "ingredients".*** Kind of made me want to google "how to make chloroform", but I thought better of it -- Lord knows, we've seen that doesn't look good if your computer is ever scrutinized.

I'll try to find the links on this for you later -- kinda having a rough day. Just added them into my quoted post here.

***ETA: Now, maybe some other "buys" SM is "said to have made" might include other possible components of chloroform -- I don't know, maybe, maybe not. If only macon.com had posted the pdf of the second set of pre-trial motions referred to in the article at the above link (as they posted the earlier set of pre-trial motions) -- then we could probably see the affidavits and such quoted in the motions and we would know more. Lots of things of that nature that made me REALLY hope macon.com or another media outlet would come through with posting the motions in their entirety rather than just quoting select parts of them in stories -- but no, no one has posted them.

Since they haven't, I've decided that somebody doesn't WANT them posted, doesn't want them out there for the public to fairly easily peruse. Could be the media outlets themselves, could be defense, could be prosecution -- but someone doesn't want them posted as the earlier ones were. JMO.
 
Backwoods,
If I could figure out how to search Bibb County Superior Court's online database, would all of the motions by SM's defense be in the court record?
 
Backwoods,
If I could figure out how to search Bibb County Superior Court's online database, would all of the motions by SM's defense be in the court record?

That, I am not sure about.

Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable about this can help us. I know that at some point, motions and stuff should be public record -- maybe they already are, but, at this point (before the trial), I'm wondering if they would still "belong" to the defense, so to speak...? I'm really not sure.

Don't know if media was able to get them because they ARE already public record -- or if the defense just provided them to media (for whatever reason). (I tend to think they are already public record, but just not sure.)

Even if they are indeed public record already, I'm not sure if motions, etc., are ever put into the public online database, just because of work/space considerations...? In other words, just not sure how much record and what types are published there (Do you know, pearl?) -- may be many you have to go request in person, pay copying costs for, etc., even if they are fully public record.

ETA: Just wanting to add, for clarity, that we learned a lot when the pdf of the earlier motions was posted, not so much from the gist of the motions themselves, but from the supporting documentation (such as LE affidavits, search warrants, etc.) that the defense pretty much had to include to show what they were asking to be excluded, etc. (Not all of it was necessarily "favorable" to the defense -- for example, I think we learned things we had not known before about what former roommate TM claims that SM said to him.) I feel there probably would be a lot of that nature in the second set as well, and I sure would like to have a look.
 
Backwoods,
If I could figure out how to search Bibb County Superior Court's online database, would all of the motions by SM's defense be in the court record?
I doubt it, Pearl. Normally you need a subscription to a service like LexisNexis to access state/district/superior court docs, or you can obtain copies in person at the courthouse for a fee.
 
I doubt it, Pearl. Normally you need a subscription to a service like LexisNexis to access state/district/superior court docs, or you can obtain copies in person at the courthouse for a fee.

And what is your take, bessie, on whether the complete motions (at this stage, while the trial is still pending) would be "gettable", LOL, through those avenues -- are they "public record" already?
 
bessie, seeing your name on your recent post reminded me -- I saw the other night where you referred to Lauren's case in Jaren Lockhart's thread, pointing out that Jaren's case is sure not the only one where FBI forensic results have seemed to come soo-oo slooow-ly.

You know, I understand somewhat about backlogs, precedence, urgency, etc. Really I do. The more I read on Websleuths, the more I realize the seeming slowness happens in a lot of cases -- and it seems to surprise a lot of folks, not just posters here but also sometimes LE (remember how, in Macon with Lauren, LE seemed to genuinely expect to be getting the results back "any day now" early in Lauren's case?)

But here is what really just bamboozles me about Lauren's case and the forensic results: Why do we have this, way back in April of 2012 (bolding is mine):

Tuesday on Eyewitness News Mornin', Macon Chief of Police Mike Burns discussed his thoughts on the murder case against Stephen McDaniel. ...

Burns also said that almost all evidence Macon Police provided to the Georgia Bureau of Investigations and the Federal Bureau of Investigations has been returned.
http://www.13wmaz.com/news/local/article/176277/153/Chief-Burns-Opposes-Bond-for-Stephen-McDaniel


... and THEN, just last month, more than a year later, we get this (again, I did the bolding):


...In February of this year, the new District Attorney, David Cooke, took the death penalty off the table at the request of the Giddings family.

Two years ago, hundreds of pieces of evidence were sent to the FBI crime lab in Virginia. Cooke says most of it is just now going through testing.

"Federal cases take precedence," explains Cooke. "So we have bombings in Afghanistan and Iraq, and now Boston, those go ahead of us. That's one of the reasons I pushed so hard early on to get a trial date set, so it would expedite our testing. If we were still on the track that we had been on, we still wouldn't have a trial date, and so testing of evidence wouldn't even have begun."
http://www.13wmaz.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=237143


Honestly, what is with Cooke?? Is he telling it straight -- that hardly any testing had been done until now? Or, in that last part of his quote, is he just promoting himself?


I don't know who to believe!
 
And what is your take, bessie, on whether the complete motions (at this stage, while the trial is still pending) would be "gettable", LOL, through those avenues -- are they "public record" already?
IMO, JMO, MOO, IMHO cuz IANAL, but, if no order is issued to seal the records, then the pleadings are accessible.
 
bessie, seeing your name on your recent post reminded me -- I saw the other night where you referred to Lauren's case in Jaren Lockhart's thread, pointing out that Jaren's case is sure not the only one where FBI forensic results have seemed to come soo-oo slooow-ly.

You know, I understand somewhat about backlogs, precedence, urgency, etc. Really I do. The more I read on Websleuths, the more I realize the seeming slowness happens in a lot of cases -- and it seems to surprise a lot of folks, not just posters here but also sometimes LE (remember how, in Macon with Lauren, LE seemed to genuinely expect to be getting the results back "any day now" early in Lauren's case?)

But here is what really just bamboozles me about Lauren's case and the forensic results: Why do we have this, way back in April of 2012 (bolding is mine):

http://www.13wmaz.com/news/local/article/176277/153/Chief-Burns-Opposes-Bond-for-Stephen-McDaniel


... and THEN, just last month, more than a year later, we get this (again, I did the bolding):


http://www.13wmaz.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=237143


Honestly, what is with Cooke?? Is he telling it straight -- that hardly any testing had been done until now? Or, in that last part of his quote, is he just promoting himself?


I don't know who to believe!


I have learned that why cases drag out is because the defense is not ready. That applies to this case....rumor is there is a lot of damning evidence that (thank god) has not been leaked to the public. I am pretty sure McD is a sitting duck with the DNA results that have come back, plus the testimonies of certain people exclusively involved with LG.
 
I have learned that why cases drag out is because the defense is not ready. That applies to this case....rumor is there is a lot of damning evidence that (thank god) has not been leaked to the public. I am pretty sure McD is a sitting duck with the DNA results that have come back, plus the testimonies of certain people exclusively involved with LG.

My post to which you replied really was just to ponder why-oh-why do we hear that most of the results are "in" in April 2012 and then in June 2013 we hear that most of the evidence is just beginning to be tested. I can't help but wonder which is true!

(I just don't see how that indicates the defense is dragging this case out. They've filed motions, yes, that have to be addressed, but one expects that. They did ask for extra time to file them, back when the death penalty was still on the table, but, JMO, that is sort of to be expected, too, under those circumstances.)

but bbm: JMO, but if there is that kind of sitting-duck DNA evidence, I don't really see what it would hurt, at this point, if it was "leaked" -- it might be bad form or I guess might taint the jury pool...but on the other hand, if it is "rumor", as you say, guess it actually has been leaked to some degree --and I just haven't heard it. If it was well known, maybe it would encourage a plea? The defense should have all the DNA evidence results (all that has been returned, that is) by now anyway, so (presumably, anyhow) it's not like a "leak" would clue them in to the prosecution's "secrets" at this point.

As for testimony of people "exclusively involved with LG" -- not quite sure what you mean by that, but unless it is eyewitness testimony to her murder or something darn close, I wonder how compelling it can be to a jury.
 
The conflicting status reports concerning the evidence are interesting to me and I am equally puzzled by those reports, Backwoods. I wish the article had a direct quote from Cooke stating that most of the evidence is just now going through testing, rather than the reporter's interpretation of what he actually said.

For me, another interesting aspect of this case from early in the process has been the emphasis placed on McD's other alleged crimes (burglary, cp). Under normal circumstances, a mosquito bite on the ankle is insignificant when one has a hornet sting on his calf; yet, we've seen an awful lot of ankle-scratching, IMO.
 
Welcome to Websleuths, bettiepageturner.

The Wal-Mart footage isn't a rumor. It's mentioned in the wrongful death suit, paragraph 21.
http://media.macon.com/smedia/2013/06/18/17/40/JLYDh.So.71.pdf#storylink=relast

Thanks for the link! I had only read it in the form of quotes from her family in articles, and never in any of the reports from the state's case. Then again, I'm sure there's a whole host of information along those lines to which we're not privy yet.. here's hoping, anyway. :dunno:

This may be strange to say, but I find it quite touching that Kristin is representing Lauren's family. Lauren would've been really proud of her friend, and I can't imagine the depth of Kristin's motivation to give it her all.
 
From Backwoods post 707:
  • April 2012 Burns [then-Police Chief] also said that almost all evidence Macon Police provided to the Georgia Bureau of Investigations and the Federal Bureau of Investigations has been returned.
  • June 2013 Cooke [new District Attorney] says most of it is just now going through testing.
Honestly, what is with Cooke?? Is he telling it straight -- that hardly any testing had been done until now? ….
I don't know who to believe!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Backwoods,
The almost all-done testing vs. most-still being tested discrepancy frustrates me too.

These lines from the movie Annie Hall came to mind. They show the elasticity of a number, as experienced by 2 people as they described it:

[Alvy and Annie are seeing their therapists at the same time on a split screen]
Alvy Singer's Therapist: How often do you sleep together?
Annie Hall's Therapist: Do you have sex often?
Alvy Singer: [lamenting] Hardly ever. Maybe three times a week.
Annie Hall: [annoyed] Constantly. I'd say three times a week.

When LE and DA quantify evidence-testing completion for a case, in statements made a year apart, I can see it’s a question of being in the eye of the beholder.

Perhaps, between the two statements, LE & DA have gathered many more items to submit for testing. I hope so.
 
The conflicting status reports concerning the evidence are interesting to me and I am equally puzzled by those reports, Backwoods. I wish the article had a direct quote from Cooke stating that most of the evidence is just now going through testing, rather than the reporter's interpretation of what he actually said.

For me, another interesting aspect of this case from early in the process has been the emphasis placed on McD's other alleged crimes (burglary, cp). Under normal circumstances, a mosquito bite on the ankle is insignificant when one has a hornet sting on his calf; yet, we've seen an awful lot of ankle-scratching, IMO.

bbm: SC, it's from a TV station and, when it originally aired at least, had a clip of Cooke giving that statement (hearing him say all that was what originally kind of made me go "what?!") -- check and see if the video is at the link as well; it probably is.

ETA: Just checked and clip's there -- but now I realize you probably saw it already. "Most of the evidence" is the reporter's statement, not Cooke's, you're right -- though Mr. Cooke says plenty, LOL.
 
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