Kyron's General Discussion Thread for 2012-13

[gitana1]

Majority of the stuff you have listed is hearsay - it obviously won't stand in the court since it is all hearsay to date.

If you mean these facts won't be admissible in court, that's untrue.

I listed all those facts to explain why people think TH is guilty and to show it's not just because of one solitary letter to the court. The issue wasn't whether these facts would be admissible evidence. But I'll explain why they would be admissible:

Hearsay can be confusing. Hearsay is an out of court statement offered for the truth of the matter asserted. Eg.: "Bobby said his mother broke his arm," offered to prove that Bobby's mother broke his arm, is hearsay.

But what's not hearsay? Any statement made by TH, when offered at trial in which she is the defendant, is not hearsay:

§ 40.450¹
Rule 801. Definitions for ORS 40.450 to 40.475As used in ORS 40.450 (Rule 801. Definitions for ORS 40.450 to 40.475) to 40.475 (Rule 806. Attacking and supporting credibility of declarant), unless the context requires otherwise:
(1) A statement is:
(a) An oral or written assertion; or
(b) Nonverbal conduct of a person, if intended as an assertion.
(2) A declarant is a person who makes a statement.
(3) Hearsay is a statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted.
(4) A statement is not hearsay if:
(a) The declarant testifies at the trial or hearing and is subject to cross-examination concerning the statement, and the statement is: (A) Inconsistent with the testimony of the witness and was given under oath subject to the penalty of perjury at a trial, hearing or other proceeding, or in a deposition;
(B) Consistent with the testimony of the witness and is offered to rebut an inconsistent statement or an express or implied charge against the witness of recent fabrication or improper influence or motive; or
(C) One of identification of a person made after perceiving the person.
(b) The statement is offered against a party and is:
(A) That partys own statement, in either an individual or a representative capacity;
(B) A statement of which the party has manifested the partys adoption or belief in its truth;
(C) A statement by a person authorized by the party to make a statement concerning the subject;
(D) A statement by the partys agent or servant concerning a matter within the scope of the agency or employment, made during the existence of the relationship; or
(E) A statement by a coconspirator of a party during the course and in furtherance of the conspiracy. http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/40.450

That means that if someone who knew Bobby's mom testified, in her child abuse trial, "Bobby's mom told me she broke his arm." That's NOT hearsay.

That also means that the following facts, if offered at trial, would not be hearsay at all:

1. That TH was the last parent to see Kyron. (The statement as to when she last saw him would not be hearsay and his other parents would testify as to when they saw him last, proving this fact).
2. That TH was the last person at all, who has come forward, to say they saw Kyron. (Statements by TH as to when she last saw him and the LACK of statements by any other person subsequent to the time TH stated she last saw Kryon, would prove this fact).
3. Her long, rambling ride through heavily forested areas, with a baby who was sick with an earache, according to both parents, on the day Kyron went missing, and then taking that same baby to a gym daycare to be cared for while TH worked out. (Stated by TH in a letter).
4. TH telling Kyron's teacher, in advance, that he had a doctor's appointment on the day he went missing, according to sources. (Which would cause the teacher to not be alarmed that he didn't show up for class. Note, a classmate of Kyron's stated to the media that Kyron told him he was leaving for an appointment that day, on the same day). Then, after the investigation began, stating the teacher was wrong and that he had an appointment the following Friday, because: "The past 2 weeks he's been acting really weird. Staring off into space. Can't remember anything. Walks into the room and then back out, stopping to stare and then move on. The doc thinks that he is having mini seizures and I made an appt on Thursday for next Friday to have him checked out.” However, neither parent has ever verified either appointment and Kaine has stated there was nothing wrong with Kyron. Desiree was unaware of such an appointment or that Kyron had been acting oddly. If such was true and Kyron was due to go to his mother that Friday, one would think TH would have alerted her in case he had anymore "mini-seizures" while with his mom that weekend. That's a pretty significant health issue she never brought up to Desiree. (Statements by TH in a letter, and to his teacher, and statements by Desiree, Kaine and the child's doctor as to what they knew). The only hearsay here would be Kyron's statement to his classmate. But for that, see below).
5. TH being the only parent of the four to complain about the investigation and the polygraphs. (Statements by TH).
6. TH telling Desiree, on the day she failed a polygraph: "I want you to know, I loved your son." (Statements by TH).
7. TH storming out of a second polygraph and suddenly refusing to cooperate further with the investigation. (Actions and statements by TH).
8. TH sending e-mails, prior to Kyron's disappearance, indicating an extreme hatred of Kyron and talking about wanting to hurt him. (Emails by TH).

10. TH asking Desiree to take back custody of Kyron, shortly before he disappeared: (Statements by TH).
11. The MFH plot allegations. (Statements by TH).
12. TH failing to contest, at all, the MFH allegations and the allegations that she was involved in Kyron's disappearance, thereby acquiescing to a restraining order against her that barred her from having contact with her own infant daughter, effectively giving up custody of the child, and permanently affecting her ability to ever regain significant rights to her child, on the grounds that it might incriminate her. (TH's LACK of action here is not a statement at all, and it is admissible).

Every single one of the above can be established through a witness or witnesses who testify that these are things TH wrote or stated or sent in an e-mail, or did or didn't do, etc..

Then, there are hearsay exceptions that would cover #9 (Kyron wetting the bed and becoming very upset when it was time to go back to his dad's and constantly stating he wanted to stay with his mom, in the months prior to his disappearance) and probably the statement of Kyron to his classmate, in #4 :

§ 40.460¹
Rule 803. Hearsay exceptions
• availability of declarant immaterial

The following are not excluded by ORS 40.455 (Rule 802. Hearsay rule), even though the declarant is available as a witness:
(1) (Reserved.)
(2) A statement relating to a startling event or condition made while the declarant was under the stress of excitement caused by the event or condition.
(3) A statement of the declarants then existing state of mind, emotion, sensation or physical condition, such as intent, plan, motive, design, mental feeling, pain or bodily health, but not including a statement of memory or belief to prove the fact remembered or believed unless it relates to the execution, revocation, identification, or terms of the declarants will.

(28)(a) A statement not specifically covered by any of the foregoing exceptions but having equivalent circumstantial guarantees of trustworthiness, if the court determines that:
(A) The statement is relevant;
(B) The statement is more probative on the point for which it is offered than any other evidence that the proponent can procure through reasonable efforts; and
(C) The general purposes of the Oregon Evidence Code and the interests of justice will best be served by admission of the statement into evidence. http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/40.450

§40.465¹
Rule 804. Hearsay exceptions when the declarant is unavailable

(1) Unavailability as a witness includes situations in which the declarant:
(a) Is exempted by ruling of the court on the ground of privilege from testifying concerning the subject matter of a statement;
(b) Persists in refusing to testify concerning the subject matter of a statement despite an order of the court to do so;
(c) Testifies to a lack of memory of the subject matter of a statement;
(d) Is unable to be present or to testify at the hearing because of death or then existing physical or mental illness or infirmity; http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/40.465

 

[rosesfromangels]

Gitana1, you are a rock star!

 

[Cherry]

This is simply not fact: kyron was last seen by his fellow students long after th left the school. Th is NOT the last person to see kyron the school and his mates were.

 

[gwenabob]

Ah.... so if there was no step-sibling in the home, then custody of the baby would be a done deal for her primary caregiver, Terri. Well that would potentially explain a lot. Like why she had previously been entreating Desiree to take Kyron back, so he wouldn't be part of the Horman household.

But thinking of that... the fact that she was desperate for custody of her daughter couldn't possibly be the entire motive. She clearly hasn't sought any of the channels that would open the door to seeing her daughter since then, so my guess is it wasn't fierce love for her child that would have precipitated this. There had to be another piece to it. Otherwise why wouldn't she have just taken the awful route that so many do during divorce and custody battles and faked an abuse claim against Kaine in order to get temporary custody, then moved her older son back in to her home and used the 'don't separate step-siblings' precedent to show that the baby shouldn't be separated from the teenaged step brother?

BBM. As a reminder, both Kyron and James are not step brothers to the baby, but half brothers. I think that probably carries even more weight in a divorce/custody scenario.

 

[Inana]

I'm a newly practicing lawyer...

congratulations!! That was a lot of hard work. Kuddo's to you.

 

[gwenabob]

This is simply not fact: kyron was last seen by his fellow students long after th left the school. Th is NOT the last person to see kyron the school and his mates were.

I believe those reports were found to be unsubstantiated after a thorough investigation. And 7 year olds are not terribly reliable when it comes to time frames.

 

[gitana1]

This is simply not fact: kyron was last seen by his fellow students long after th left the school. Th is NOT the last person to see kyron the school and his mates were.

Well, that's what official reports state, so until there is actual, reliable evidence to the contrary, that's what we know from LE right now and I'm going by that and not what Terri Horman's attorneys say.

I've seen no facts to suggest Kyron was seen long after it was established that TH had left the school. The only thing I ever heard was that one fellow student told his mom that he saw TH leave the school building and that Kyron was not with her. But that doesn't prove that he was the last one to see Kyron or that anyone but the step-mom was. Because no time is stated for when he saw TH leave and the time he supposedly last saw Kryon changes from report to report and is sometimes contradicted by certain aspects of the case. For example, if the kid last saw Kyron at 8:45 a.m. when the bell rang, (several reports) why was the kid going downstairs and not up, back to class and was was Kyron going to see another exhibit?

Also, we don't know exactly what every witness has said regarding when Kyron was last seen, at what time, by whom and whether they saw TH with him at a later time than others saw him, etc. What we do know is that LE has been consistent that TH was the last to see him. Are they lying?

"The last time this child was seen was inside the school and was never seen leaving the school," Staton told CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/06/11/oregon.missing.boy/index.html?section=cnn_latest


Kyron disappeared the morning of June 4 following a school science fair. He was last seen by his stepmother, walking toward his classroom 150 feet away. But he never made it there. http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Media/parents-missing-kyron-horman-hope/story?id=10891582

Multnomah County Sheriff's Capt. Jason Gates said Kyron's stepmother brought him to school for a school science fair and last saw Kyron near his classroom at about 8:45 a.m.

REDACTED, Kyron's classmate, said he last saw his friend at about the same time when Kyron told him he was headed to look at another student's science project. "He walked by the hallway and I'm like, 'Hi, Kyron,' and he's like, 'Hi. I'm going to go see this cool one. It's electric.'
I'm like, 'Alright, bye.' And that's the last time I saw him," REDACTED said. "He never did make it back to class." http://www.kptv.com/news/23842774/detail.html

From updates video:
- Terri is the last known person to have seen Kyron before he disappeared.
- She's associated with the case because she was the last person to have seen Kyron.
LE: captain Gates, MCSO http://www.kgw.com/video?id=96685544&sec=547977

Terri Horman is believed to be the last one to see Kyron before he disappeared, but she's never been named a suspect by police, and no one else has ever been arrested in Kyron's disappearance. http://www.komonews.com/news/local/...protests-outside-stepmoms-home-233458861.html

 

[Knox]

I wonder what happened in that last 15 minutes of the Terri-Landscaper meeting that was apparently (to Terri's attorneys) supposed to be such a game-changer - she says "just kidding about the MfH!" or something?

Her radar went off. Sanchez probably did something which alerted her to the fact she was being recorded. She played the last 15 minutes for all she was worth ... we never said she was stupid, just a bad actress. You all do remember that first pressor video right? Our hinky meters went off the charts.

Thank you gitana1 for your excellent posts.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Yes, thank you again to gitana1 for giving us this incredible insight; it's very helpful in understanding the many dynamics of this case.

And Knox you are right. To me, TMH is the true definition of "hinky". If a little boy weren't missing, her bad acting would be comic fodder.

Despite the delay, I'd say TMH is just about out of runway, and we will see a major advancement in this case. Someone is going to squeal, and probably for immunity.

 

[ami]

Her radar went off. Sanchez probably did something which alerted her to the fact she was being recorded. She played the last 15 minutes for all she was worth ... we never said she was stupid, just a bad actress. You all do remember that first pressor video right? Our hinky meters went off the charts.

Thank you gitana1 for your excellent posts.

Ahhhhh, I get it. For some reason I thought they were referring to the initial "lunch" encounter with Sanchez, months before Kyron went missing, in which she allegedly asked him to get rid of Kaine, and saying that somehow after Terri realized he wasn't going to bite, she backpedaled or something - but you're right, they must have meant the 15 minutes during the failed sting operation months later, after Kyron vanished and Terri knew she was under the microscope.

 

[ami]

Yes, thank you again to gitana1 for giving us this incredible insight; it's very helpful in understanding the many dynamics of this case.

And Knox you are right. To me, TMH is the true definition of "hinky". If a little boy weren't missing, her bad acting would be comic fodder.

Despite the delay, I'd say TMH is just about out of runway, and we will see a major advancement in this case. Someone is going to squeal, and probably for immunity.

You know what's funny - I somehow get the feeling LE has been surprised at how willing Terri was to give up her baby. I feel a bit like they expected her to start talking and trying to explain herself (lying of course, but then hemming herself into her lies) after the protective order kept her from her baby a while. Instead she didn't even contest it.

It would have been a good strategy to get her to start talking, "Hey Terri, this landscaper is probably looking for some attention and trying to totally smear you in the process, we see this all the time. Just tell us YOUR version of the MFH, and if this landscaper is a total liar we'll bust him for slander and you can be reunited with your baby, she has to be missing her mamma..." -- But nope. Terri never contested it.

I do wonder if LE isn't surprised that Terri herself wasn't the squealer. So many of her type can't seem to stop talking, absolutely certain that their insane lies will be believed.

 

[Tulessa]

This is simply not fact: kyron was last seen by his fellow students long after th left the school. Th is NOT the last person to see kyron the school and his mates were.

We don't KNOW that Cherry. TH could have taken him from the school when she left. We need to stick to known FACTS. :seeya:

 

[jadejazzkayla]

a stranger/aquaintance may have abducted kyron from his school. that is a fact.

 

[AnaTeresa]

a stranger/aquaintance may have abducted kyron from his school. that is a fact.

I don't think you can call it a fact. It's a possibility, but it's not a fact. Fact implies evidence, and there's no evidence of that. And I say this as a fence sitter.

Circumstantially, TH looks bad. It's possible that this could be a stranger abduction, but there's not solid evidence which points in that direction - only possibilities.

 

[Donjeta]

Based on what occurred in the Sanchez deposition, Mother contends that Father
has opened the door to further discovery by asking a series of questions the origin of
which can only have come from law enforcement.

http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/Emergency Hearing Motion.pdf

Why would LE be the only possible source? Rudy Sanchez never talked to anybody else about anything at all?

I dunno but if I was Kaine and heard that my family had a landscaper that I knew nothing about and he's claiming that my wife is trying to have me killed I might have phoned him straight off and asked him what's what.

In sum, as a result of the questioning of Sanchez about a alleged meeting that,
by Sanchez's representation, only Mother, Sanchez, and law enforcement knew
occurred, compounded by an instruction to Sanchez to not answer questions that would
have exposed the issues with his prior testimony, Mother is in precisely the situation she
predicted could happen in this case: an incomplete and inaccurate accounting of events
is being used as a cudgel to prevent parenting time and to further smear Mother before
the court and in the public record, while the court's prior ruling is being used by
Sanchez's lawyer and Father's lawyer as a shield to prevent the full disclosure of the
facts germane to difficult decisions this court must make.

What meeting do they refer to when they say only Sanchez, LE and Mother know about it? Everybody who followed the case knew about the unsuccessful sting op...
If it refers to some other meeting that took place in a restaurant... well, a restaurant usually has staff around and someone might know something.

During the questioning, Sanchez was equivocal
about what Mother allegedly said to him on many occasions, and, in particular, about
the specific words she used

It says he used a translator during the deposition. If he requires one I think it's probably pointless to expect him to remember the exact wordings of conversations that took place several years ago.

Also, during questioning by Father's lawyer, Sanchez
revealed that he testified before the grand jury

. This imo was not big news. It was reported a long ago that he did, at least by certain blogs, I'm not sure about MSM. And who would LE call in front of the GJ if not their star witness?

 

[gitana1]

http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/Emergency%20Hearing%20Motion.pdf

Why would LE be the only possible source? Rudy Sanchez never talked to anybody else about anything at all?

I dunno but if I was Kaine and heard that my family had a landscaper that I knew nothing about and he's claiming that my wife is trying to have me killed I might have phoned him straight off and asked him what's what.



What meeting do they refer to when they say only Sanchez, LE and Mother know about it? Everybody who followed the case knew about the unsuccessful sting op...
If it refers to some other meeting that took place in a restaurant... well, a restaurant usually has staff around and someone might know something.


It says he used a translator during the deposition. If he requires one I think it's probably pointless to expect him to remember the exact wordings of conversations that took place several years ago.

. This imo was not big news. It was reported a long ago that he did, at least by certain blogs, I'm not sure about MSM. And who would LE call in front of the GJ if not their star witness?

It looks like they are saying they want info regarding the sting. True, everyone knows about it but no one knows the specifics of what was said and I think, since it is an on-going investigation, he has been instructed not to speak about the sting. But TH wants that info because she is trying to discredit him and his statements about what occurred will be more valuable than just hers (the failed sting attempt).

It will be interesting to see how the judge rules on this. It's not such a bright line, to me. I wouldn't want to have to make the decision! I think TH will lose on being able to question LE. That's not going to happen. But as to questioning Sanchez re the sting? I don't know.

 

[Knox]

Terri's Attorney's are going to attempt to trash Sanchez. They will use his need for a translator for all it's worth, i.e., "Mr. Sanchez misunderstood what Terri Horman was trying to say to him in the restaurant that day. She tried to clarify her intent in the last (sting) meeting, but again he misunderstood her".

I can just see how this is going to play out ...

 

[Shadowboy]

It looks like they are saying they want info regarding the sting. True, everyone knows about it but no one knows the specifics of what was said and I think, since it is an on-going investigation, he has been instructed not to speak about the sting. But TH wants that info because she is trying to discredit him and his statements about what occurred will be more valuable than just hers (the failed sting attempt).

It will be interesting to see how the judge rules on this. It's not such a bright line, to me. I wouldn't want to have to make the decision! I think TH will lose on being able to question LE. That's not going to happen. But as to questioning Sanchez re the sting? I don't know.

Boy howdee. I’m glad I’m not the judge.

In the original (and subsequent) requests for a PO, KH stated LE told him TM tried to have him killed and that there is cause to believe she disappeared Ky. The Court accepted this argument for the PO. Now, the Court has ruled – due to the DA’s requests – that witnesses/lines of questioning based on information originating with LE is out of bounds (same restriction DY faced in her civil suit).

So what happens if LE says, “Go ahead and talk about the sting. We’re no longer investigating the MFH.” KH’s lawyers have, without question, tried to connect the dots between conversations with RS and TM re: TM’s dissatisfaction in the marriage … and Ky’s disappearance. Given this attempted connection, could getting at the specifics of the sting potentially open the door to more “works” developed as part of the larger investigation?

Just asking. What a mess!

 

[gitana1]

Boy howdee. I’m glad I’m not the judge.

In the original (and subsequent) requests for a PO, KH stated LE told him TM tried to have him killed and that there is cause to believe she disappeared Ky. The Court accepted this argument for the PO. Now, the Court has ruled – due to the DA’s requests – that witnesses/lines of questioning based on information originating with LE is out of bounds (same restriction DY faced in her civil suit).

So what happens if LE says, “Go ahead and talk about the sting. We’re no longer investigating the MFH.” KH’s lawyers have, without question, tried to connect the dots between conversations with RS and TM re: TM’s dissatisfaction in the marriage … and Ky’s disappearance. Given this attempted connection, could getting at the specifics of the sting potentially open the door to more “works” developed as part of the larger investigation?

Just asking. What a mess!

Everything has the potential to open the door to other issues regarding the investigation as a whole. It's a fine, fine line. The judge has to balance TH's due process rights to discovery with the state's right to protect the integrity of a murder or MFH investigation. We have to remember that TH has not only not been charged, LE has not stated they are even investigating her at all. So the judge has to deal with that reality along with the reality that a child is missing and may have been killed.

Family law judges usually don;t have to make these kinds of decisions.

 

[gitana1]

Yes, thanks very much. I always enjoy reading your posts gitana, even when we disagree. You're very good at laying out facts to support your ideas, and keep your cool when you disagree with people. You're a gem.

Hey, congratulations on recently becoming an attorney! Super cool. I know you'll be a fabulous lawyer.