Lawrence Smith Replies - If you can say that

[JMO8778]

..and Patsy was questioned about sexual abuse growing up...her father was there the night of the party on the 23rd,when the odd 911 call was made.then he split for Atlanta asap on stand-by.and JB made the odd "I don't feel pretty" comment,crying at that.
Nedra didn't live in his apt with him in CO. either.I don't buy that she just didn't like Boulder...her husb. was there,and one of her daughters and 2 of her g-kids were there.
Would SS cover for JR,if something had happened,and then let him come to live w/ them? I'm not sure about that.I suspect she was covering for DP that evening,at Patsy's request.She didn't open the door when LE knocked,and spoke through the speaker only.ODD.would it have really been that much trouble to open the door?why didn't one of the R's answer it?even JB was known to do so.so I have to wonder where she was at that moment.

 

[UKGuy]

As far as the blood on the size 12s- to say they were blood-STAINED may be going a bit too far. As I understand it, there were a few DROPS of blood. That's it. Not even enough to penetrate through the thin cotton to the long johns. This SECOND bleeding (really only an oozing) was not seen by the stagers. Once those long johns were pulled back up after the initial wiping, her pubic area was not seen again until the coroner examined her.

I also get a feeling that JBR was being abused by JAR. Often when a child is sexually abused, it will be by multiple family members. In this family, we have an adult female whose sexuality has been diminished through surgery, chemotherapy, etc. We have a beautiful 6-year old girl, who has been made to look and act in the sexualized manner of a much older girl. She also does not have the usual sense of physical "boundaries" about her private parts that kids should have by that age. We have a young boy, who at nearly 10, is on the verge of puberty. (ask any man when he remembers that first "stirring" of hormones- it certainly can be that young). We have a college-age half brother whose semen stained comforter was found in a suitcase also containing a children's Dr.Seuss book and JBR's hairs. Just looking at it that way- it's a petri-dish for sexual abuse of the little girl.

As far as the blood on the size 12s- to say they were blood-STAINED may be going a bit too far.

You reckon, well citing from the Autopsy Report:

The underwear is urine stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch maximum dimension.

several sounds like more than two to me, and 0.5 inch seems large enough.

Also

As I understand it, there were a few DROPS of blood. That's it.

Your allusion to drops of blood is to be found nowhere in the autopsy report, or elsewhere?

Det. Arndt's account of the Autopsy is:
Ramsey warrant dated January 30, 1997

Det. Arndt further informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in the area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's pubic area having been wiped by a cloth.

No drops of blood mentioned here, just red stains and along with Coroner Meyer's observation that there were several and his measurement of up to 0.5 inch, I suggest to you that this is a substantial amount of blood.

Again for Coroner Meyer to reach his conclusion that JonBenet's pubic area had been wiped by a cloth, then the size-12's were patently not fresh on her at this point. So unless she was not initially cleaned up, then this must represent a second occassion on which JonBenet was cleaned up?

This SECOND bleeding (really only an oozing) was not seen by the stagers. Once those long johns were pulled back up after the initial wiping, her pubic area was not seen again until the coroner examined her.

It had to be seen by the stager if she was wiped by a cloth, Coroner Meyer does not indicate that he reaches his conclusion on the basis that there was a SECOND bleeding, but on the absence of blood from her pubic area?

Your assertion that there was a second bleeding may be correct, but not by necessity have to relate to the absence of blood from her pubic area?

I also get a feeling that JBR was being abused by JAR. Often when a child is sexually abused, it will be by multiple family members. In this family, we have an adult female whose sexuality has been diminished through surgery, chemotherapy, etc. We have a beautiful 6-year old girl, who has been made to look and act in the sexualized manner of a much older girl. She also does not have the usual sense of physical "boundaries" about her private parts that kids should have by that age. We have a young boy, who at nearly 10, is on the verge of puberty. (ask any man when he remembers that first "stirring" of hormones- it certainly can be that young). We have a college-age half brother whose semen stained comforter was found in a suitcase also containing a children's Dr.Seuss book and JBR's hairs. Just looking at it that way- it's a petri-dish for sexual abuse of the little girl.

Entirely possible, it may not have been systematic, but situational. I wonder if the collection of photographs will ever be released, they would tell us a lot as to how JonBenet was viewed by the person photographing her?


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[UKGuy]

..and Patsy was questioned about sexual abuse growing up...her father was there the night of the party on the 23rd,when the odd 911 call was made.then he split for Atlanta asap on stand-by.and JB made the odd "I don't feel pretty" comment,crying at that.
Nedra didn't live in his apt with him in CO. either.I don't buy that she just didn't like Boulder...her husb. was there,and one of her daughters and 2 of her g-kids were there.
Would SS cover for JR,if something had happened,and then let him come to live w/ them? I'm not sure about that.I suspect she was covering for DP that evening,at Patsy's request.She didn't open the door when LE knocked,and spoke through the speaker only.ODD.would it have really been that much trouble to open the door?why didn't one of the R's answer it?even JB was known to do so.so I have to wonder where she was at that moment.

JMO8778,
You may be correct, the circumstances do allow for that interpretation, but then many present must have had some notion that something was amiss, would they not have mentioned this to the investigators?

Then there is the idea of a loose collective conspiracy if JonBenet was molested and tried to dial 911, but silence was the order of the day?

Would SS cover for JR,if something had happened,and then let him come to live w/ them? I'm not sure about that.

But patently she did, and if she did not know prior to JonBenet's death she must have subsequently, yet continued with her anonymous campaign to assist the Ramsey's. Personally I smell conspiracy!

 

[JMO8778]

You reckon, well citing from the Autopsy Report:

several sounds like more than two to me, and 0.5 inch seems large enough.

Also

Your allusion to drops of blood is to be found nowhere in the autopsy report, or elsewhere?

Det. Arndt's account of the Autopsy is:
Ramsey warrant dated January 30, 1997

No drops of blood mentioned here, just red stains and along with Coroner Meyer's observation that there were several and his measurement of up to 0.5 inch, I suggest to you that this is a substantial amount of blood.

Again for Coroner Meyer to reach his conclusion that JonBenet's pubic area had been wiped by a cloth, then the size-12's were patently not fresh on her at this point. So unless she was not initially cleaned up, then this must represent a second occassion on which JonBenet was cleaned up?


It had to be seen by the stager if she was wiped by a cloth, Coroner Meyer does not indicate that he reaches his conclusion on the basis that there was a SECOND bleeding, but on the absence of blood from her pubic area?

Your assertion that there was a second bleeding may be correct, but not by necessity have to relate to the absence of blood from her pubic area?




Entirely possible, it may not have been systematic, but situational. I wonder if the collection of photographs will ever be released, they would tell us a lot as to how JonBenet was viewed by the person photographing her?


.

..the ones found in the basement that Patsy was questioned about? I think they were described as 'cute',or something,but yes,that would be interesting to know how the person veiwed her;my guess is they will never be released.I do wonder if it was JAR that did it though,not JR.
in the movie PMPT,which was depicted as accurately as possible,(I recall the narrator saying),a dummy was used for JB; on the autopsy table,it depicted the too large underwear and several reddish stains were showing (more like thick lines) in the crotch,(I wouldn't call them drops).it was just a brief clip.

 

[UKGuy]

..the ones found in the basement that Patsy was questioned about? I think they were described as 'cute',or something,but yes,that would be interesting to know how the person veiwed her;my guess is they will never be released.I do wonder if it was JAR that did it though,not JR.
in the movie PMPT,which was depicted as accurately as possible,(I recall the narrator saying),a dummy was used for JB; on the autopsy table,it depicted the too large underwear and several reddish stains were showing (more like thick lines) in the crotch,(I wouldn't call them drops).it was just a brief clip.

JMO8778,

Yes those photographs, I suspect they are more than simply cute domestic photographs of JonBenet, and were they dumped down there, as JonBenet was, from memory nobody admitted to taking them?

in the movie PMPT,which was depicted as accurately as possible,(I recall the narrator saying),a dummy was used for JB; on the autopsy table,it depicted the too large underwear and several reddish stains were showing (more like thick lines) in the crotch,(I wouldn't call them drops).it was just a brief clip.

I think that JonBenet's underwear was blood-stained with a sufficient amount of blood for Coroner Meyer to reach his conclusion that JonBenet had been wiped by a cloth, is not contentious since it is mention in the Autopsy Report.

For us, where I think it is relevant is in constructing a timeline of events. If we assume that the splinter arrived inside JonBenet down in the basement, then this might correspond with JonBenet being wiped by a cloth?

So can we assume JonBenet was garroted first, then turned over digitally penetrated, followed by being wiped by a cloth?

Those actions only seem to make sense within the context of a staging?



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[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
You may be correct, the circumstances do allow for that interpretation, but then many present must have had some notion that something was amiss, would they not have mentioned this to the investigators?

not if it was only she and Patsy and the perp who knew? sounds like there were some hushed up things going on there that night,perhaps someone taking a risky chance due to too much alcohol? and Ms Barnhill *did notice something was amiss w/ JB.

Then there is the idea of a loose collective conspiracy if JonBenet was molested and tried to dial 911, but silence was the order of the day?

that's my guess,but it needn't be JB...it could have been another adult who threatened to call LE if it didn't stop.

But patently she did, and if she did not know prior to JonBenet's death she must have subsequently, yet continued with her anonymous campaign to assist the Ramsey's. Personally I smell conspiracy!

could be, good point,of course it's odd her husb. left his position to follow them to Atlanta.and notice the Stine's weren't called to assist the morning of the 26th.It appears that only truly nice,truly *good,upstanding ppl were called.SO I have to wonder what they knew about the R's,did they know they *real them?

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

Yes those photographs, I suspect they are more than simply cute domestic photographs of JonBenet, and were they dumped down there, as JonBenet was, from memory nobody admitted to taking them?


I think that JonBenet's underwear was blood-stained with a sufficient amount of blood for Coroner Meyer to reach his conclusion that JonBenet had been wiped by a cloth, is not contentious since it is mention in the Autopsy Report.

For us, where I think it is relevant is in constructing a timeline of events. If we assume that the splinter arrived inside JonBenet down in the basement, then this might correspond with JonBenet being wiped by a cloth?

So can we assume JonBenet was garroted first, then turned over digitally penetrated, followed by being wiped by a cloth?

Those actions only seem to make sense within the context of a staging?



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I really think you're onto something,UK!
In thinking back to the movie (Schiller narrated it;you can watch that version as well),he says details were portrayed as accurately as possible.WHEN 'JB' (a dummy,Schiller said he thought using a real child for the part wouldn't be right) was on the autopsy table,I think I said this before...the too large underwear showed the lines of stains written about in the autopsy report..ie-'steaks' of blood in the crotch area.
My thought there is that they would have been drops of blood had they just ozzed out,and not been disturbed...but,it appears that wasn't the case.How did they become streaks,'stains',instead of drops???? I would have to agree,it appears she was wiped down *after the underwear was placed on her.When the cloth,or whatever was used,touched the drops of blood,it smeared them,causing the long steaks of blood,or the 'stains' Corn. Meyer put in the autopsy report. (if someone can come up w. another explanation,of course pls post).But it appears to me,the way the stains show up on the underwear,it was blood that was smeared by a cloth as she was being wiped down,after having the underwear placed on her.The lack of corresponding stains on JB,I would have to agree,shows this.
Now comes the question..would any intruder do this? nope.why bother? but,a parent would.WHY? IMO,there was a staged sexual assault,(the splinter being left there at the time),BUT,the stager didn't want the staged assault to be noticed right away...as in, fear of someone in the house being arrested right on the spot. SO,she's wiped,(as it appears that area was checked again),and then the LJ's and blankets are to further stop any blood that might leak out after that from being noticed *right away*.*That's why I think a sexual assault was staged,and then hidden beneath it all.And apparently,the blood didn't matter on the underwear...the stager knew a sexual assault would be found,but not right away,as long as blood was hidden,to some degree.(this gives JR time to get out of town?)
JMO.

 

[UKGuy]

not if it was only she and Patsy and the perp who knew? sounds like there were some hushed up things going on there that night,perhaps someone taking a risky chance due to too much alcohol? and Ms Barnhill *did notice something was amiss w/ JB.

that's my guess,but it needn't be JB...it could have been another adult who threatened to call LE if it didn't stop.


could be, good point,of course it's odd her husb. left his position to follow them to Atlanta.and notice the Stine's weren't called to assist the morning of the 26th.It appears that only truly nice,truly *good,upstanding ppl were called.SO I have to wonder what they knew about the R's,did they know they *real them?

JMO8778,

could be, good point,of course it's odd her husb. left his position to follow them to Atlanta.and notice the Stine's weren't called to assist the morning of the 26th.It appears that only truly nice,truly *good,upstanding ppl were called.SO I have to wonder what they knew about the R's,did they know they *real them?

Yes this behaviour along with other notables and the possibility that JR used his cellphone to dial for advice has led me to suspect that there was an overarching conspiracy, and one that may have flowed from lets say a liberal lifestyle.

Yes and if you note the common link, in general, with people who are connected to the Ramsey's is financial, which is what Susan Stine's husbands employment area was.

A lot of people understood that money and status were involved in the JonBenet case but nobody, as far as I know, has mapped out the post-mortem conspiracy connections based on a common purpose rather than the simple calling in of old favors?


Personally I reckon that enough circumstantial evidence now exists to demonstrate that there was a post-mortem conspiracy, along with the distinct possibility that prior to JonBenet's death, the participants socialized with each other?


.

 

[UKGuy]

I really think you're onto something,UK!
In thinking back to the movie (Schiller narrated it;you can watch that version as well),he says details were portrayed as accurately as possible.WHEN 'JB' (a dummy,Schiller said he thought using a real child for the part wouldn't be right) was on the autopsy table,I think I said this before...the too large underwear showed the lines of stains written about in the autopsy report..ie-'steaks' of blood in the crotch area.
My thought there is that they would have been drops of blood had they just ozzed out,and not been disturbed...but,it appears that wasn't the case.How did they become streaks,'stains',instead of drops???? I would have to agree,it appears she was wiped down *after the underwear was placed on her.When the cloth,or whatever was used,touched the drops of blood,it smeared them,causing the long steaks of blood,or the 'stains' Corn. Meyer put in the autopsy report. (if someone can come up w. another explanation,of course pls post).But it appears to me,the way the stains show up on the underwear,it was blood that was smeared by a cloth as she was being wiped down,after having the underwear placed on her.The lack of corresponding stains on JB,I would have to agree,shows this.
Now comes the question..would any intruder do this? nope.why bother? but,a parent would.WHY? IMO,there was a staged sexual assault,(the splinter being left there at the time),BUT,the stager didn't want the staged assault to be noticed right away...as in, fear of someone in the house being arrested right on the spot. SO,she's wiped,(as it appears that area was checked again),and then the LJ's and blankets are to further stop any blood that might leak out after that from being noticed *right away*.*That's why I think a sexual assault was staged,and then hidden beneath it all.And apparently,the blood didn't matter on the underwear...the stager knew a sexual assault would be found,but not right away,as long as blood was hidden,to some degree.(this gives JR time to get out of town?)
JMO.

JMO8778,
Yes, it could be a deliberate staged sexual assault, thats what it appears like on the surface e.g. Patsy or John digitally penetrating JonBenet, but I guess Patsy is prime suspect, since her fibers are embeded in the garrote, suggesting she created it?

From our perspective and I guess the investigators the mistake made by Patsy is the size-12's, regardless of what day-of-the-week was on them, particularly after she stated that she placed them into JonBenet's Panty drawer, so either she never redressed JonBenet in those size-12's and is making up the explanation since she never planned it that way, and is covering for someone else?

e.g.
Patsy redressed JonBenet in the size-12's
Patsy knows she never placed the size-12's into the drawer.

Patsy states she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's panty drawer.
Investigators find no size-12's in JonBenet's panty drawer.

So why does Patsy not have some calculated reason for JonBenet to be wearing the size-12's?

Maybe because she never did the redressing?



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[DeeDee249]

JMO8778,
Yes, it could be a deliberate staged sexual assault, thats what it appears like on the surface e.g. Patsy or John digitally penetrating JonBenet, but I guess Patsy is prime suspect, since her fibers are embeded in the garrote, suggesting she created it?

From our perspective and I guess the investigators the mistake made by Patsy is the size-12's, regardless of what day-of-the-week was on them, particularly after she stated that she placed them into JonBenet's Panty drawer, so either she never redressed JonBenet in those size-12's and is making up the explanation since she never planned it that way, and is covering for someone else?

e.g.
Patsy redressed JonBenet in the size-12's
Patsy knows she never placed the size-12's into the drawer.

Patsy states she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's panty drawer.
Investigators find no size-12's in JonBenet's panty drawer.

So why does Patsy not have some calculated reason for JonBenet to be wearing the size-12's?

Maybe because she never did the redressing?



.

Even if PR herself didn't do the redressing, it was surely done with her help. No one else would have known where those size 12s were (wrapped up as a gift for Jenny in the basement). PR said in a deposition that she had bought those as a gift and meant to send them but didn't get around to it, so she put them in JBR's panty drawer. We know that isn't true, because none were found. If it were really true PR would have made an issue of trying to find out what happened to them. Instead, she never mentions it again, offering no rebuttal to LE's finding none.
And as they did so many times, whoever was questioning her let the ball drop AGAIN and never pressed PR to explain why not a single pair of size 12 panties was found in the house, other than the pair on the body of her daughter. Then, MONTHS after they had moved back to Atlanta, it was "Oh, look HERE they are- think it'll help? "
Where were they before? Well, I'd venture the other 6 panties from the set were hidden after that gift package was opened, either taken out the night the Rs left the house or taken out by Aunt P when she raided the home.

 

[JMO8778]

I was going to reply something similar,now I don't need to
Yes,Patsy would have known where they were,remember she went without JR on the trip when they were bought in NY.Just because JB was wiped after being dressed in them doesn't mean Patsy didn't do it.(I guess I phrased that wrong),but Patsy and JR both,I believe,were present at the staging,(or,at least JR was afterwards) and she was wiped and wrapped to prevent blood from being noticed right away,although they did want it to appear to be an attack from a pedo intruder.So the blood in the underwear wasn't a big issue.It wasn't going anywhere.
I believe they were afraid of JR being arrested immediately and held under suspicion,had a sexual attack been noticed right away.

 

[DeeDee249]

That could be. One thing, though: I really can't imagine JR thinking he could "get away before he was arrested". When you are accused of murdering a child, I can't believe you'd get away with it just by leaving the state. He'd have to hide forever, literally.
I don't know if that was behind the wrapping in the blanket. I know the stains in the panties were seen when the panties were looked at by Meyer. I just don't think the stagers looked at them again after they were put on. The way I see it, it takes about 30 seconds to pull on a pair of panties on a motionless child. Another 30 seconds to pull up a pair of long johns. I think they pull on the panties...pull on the long johns, then wrap in a blanket. They don't check the panties again to see if there is staining. They walk away- and the panties are not looked at again until the coroner sees them.

Consider this...if there were a few drops of blood that oozed out onto her pubic area- when the panties were put on, those drops very likely smeared and absorbed onto the panties. The cotton of the panties could have been sufficient to absorb the small amount of blood so that there was none on the pubic area which was wiped down anyway.

 

[UKGuy]

Even if PR herself didn't do the redressing, it was surely done with her help. No one else would have known where those size 12s were (wrapped up as a gift for Jenny in the basement). PR said in a deposition that she had bought those as a gift and meant to send them but didn't get around to it, so she put them in JBR's panty drawer. We know that isn't true, because none were found. If it were really true PR would have made an issue of trying to find out what happened to them. Instead, she never mentions it again, offering no rebuttal to LE's finding none.
And as they did so many times, whoever was questioning her let the ball drop AGAIN and never pressed PR to explain why not a single pair of size 12 panties was found in the house, other than the pair on the body of her daughter. Then, MONTHS after they had moved back to Atlanta, it was "Oh, look HERE they are- think it'll help? "
Where were they before? Well, I'd venture the other 6 panties from the set were hidden after that gift package was opened, either taken out the night the Rs left the house or taken out by Aunt P when she raided the home.

DeeDee249,

Even if PR herself didn't do the redressing, it was surely done with her help. No one else would have known where those size 12s were (wrapped up as a gift for Jenny in the basement).

But were they? None were discovered, and I have never seen any mention of empty gift wrapping with or without Jenny's name tag on it being found. You may be correct that Pam Paugh removed them?

I remember from an interview where Patsy is reminded that there should be some empty wrapping left behind. e.g. would an intruder take the gift wrapping too?


.

 

[UKGuy]

I was going to reply something similar,now I don't need to
Yes,Patsy would have known where they were,remember she went without JR on the trip when they were bought in NY.Just because JB was wiped after being dressed in them doesn't mean Patsy didn't do it.(I guess I phrased that wrong),but Patsy and JR both,I believe,were present at the staging,(or,at least JR was afterwards) and she was wiped and wrapped to prevent blood from being noticed right away,although they did want it to appear to be an attack from a pedo intruder.So the blood in the underwear wasn't a big issue.It wasn't going anywhere.
I believe they were afraid of JR being arrested immediately and held under suspicion,had a sexual attack been noticed right away.

JMO8778,

Yes,Patsy would have known where they were,remember she went without JR on the trip when they were bought in NY.

I agree, this is probably why she was never questioned further on this topic, because the investigators knew she had lied, and did not want to offer her any further wriggle room, come a trial.

I wonder if it was John in a separate staging episode that wiped JonBenet down with his israeli shirt, after possibly inserting the missing piece of the paintbrush inside her. Although the assumption that it was left inside her and was redacted from the autopsy report is weak, it could be, also what was in the final report that was originally considered needed to be redacted?

Maybe the PDI is correct but John's input was designed to confuse the investigators over signs of chronic abuse?

That is there was three or more staging episodes e.g.

1. Patsy cleans up and redresses Jonbenet.

2. Patsy stages the wine-cellar garroting.

3. John stages the sexual assault, wipes her down, to prevent the blood showing for the reasons you suggest, then wraps JonBenet in the blanket depositing her back into the wine-cellar?


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[UKGuy]

That could be. One thing, though: I really can't imagine JR thinking he could "get away before he was arrested". When you are accused of murdering a child, I can't believe you'd get away with it just by leaving the state. He'd have to hide forever, literally.
I don't know if that was behind the wrapping in the blanket. I know the stains in the panties were seen when the panties were looked at by Meyer. I just don't think the stagers looked at them again after they were put on. The way I see it, it takes about 30 seconds to pull on a pair of panties on a motionless child. Another 30 seconds to pull up a pair of long johns. I think they pull on the panties...pull on the long johns, then wrap in a blanket. They don't check the panties again to see if there is staining. They walk away- and the panties are not looked at again until the coroner sees them.

Consider this...if there were a few drops of blood that oozed out onto her pubic area- when the panties were put on, those drops very likely smeared and absorbed onto the panties. The cotton of the panties could have been sufficient to absorb the small amount of blood so that there was none on the pubic area which was wiped down anyway.

DeeDee249,

That could be. One thing, though: I really can't imagine JR thinking he could "get away before he was arrested".

But he did, he had his getaway flight ready. He wanted to flee the crime-scene as soon as possible, he had likely been given legal advice that once out of state, it would be very difficult and time consuming to remove him from another states jurisdiction. Also if he was a pawn after the fact, and not involved in the PDI, why should he want to leave Colorado state so fast?

Consider this...if there were a few drops of blood that oozed out onto her pubic area- when the panties were put on, those drops very likely smeared and absorbed onto the panties.

Sure what you suggest may have occurred, and Coroner Meyer may have accounted for this e.g. the blood on her perineum may have had corresponding stains on her size-12's? Your idea that blood oozed out may simply be a distinct and separate event from the absence of blood that Coroner Meyer used to reach his opinion that JonBenet was wiped with a cloth?

The cotton of the panties could have been sufficient to absorb the small amount of blood so that there was none on the pubic area which was wiped down anyway.

But it was not a small amount of blood, there was enough to cause multiple staining, and according to JMO8778 there was also a streaking effect, that is the inside of JonBenet's size-12's were not peppered with small stains some corresponding to drop(s) of blood the origin of which had vanished due to absorption.

 

[JMO8778]

That could be. One thing, though: I really can't imagine JR thinking he could "get away before he was arrested". When you are accused of murdering a child, I can't believe you'd get away with it just by leaving the state. He'd have to hide forever, literally.

not quite what I mean.JR tried to make arrangements to leave the state just 20 mins after JB's body was found.he KNEW what was going to be found upon autopsy.he did NOT want to be around when that happened...I don't specifically know what he had in mind,but he was apparently afraid of being arrested when the staged sexual attack was found,IMO.at least out of state,he could buy some time,seek legal advice,etc.personally I think he was considering leaving the US,considering PP fetched the passports,as well as family mementos.passports+mementos=someone seriously considering fleeing the country !

that would also make sense as to why the she was wiped and then wrapped,thus hiding any more blood that might further leak out.

I don't know if that was behind the wrapping in the blanket. I know the stains in the panties were seen when the panties were looked at by Meyer. I just don't think the stagers looked at them again after they were put on. The way I see it, it takes about 30 seconds to pull on a pair of panties on a motionless child. Another 30 seconds to pull up a pair of long johns. I think they pull on the panties...pull on the long johns, then wrap in a blanket. They don't check the panties again to see if there is staining. They walk away- and the panties are not looked at again until the coroner sees them.

Consider this...if there were a few drops of blood that oozed out onto her pubic area- when the panties were put on, those drops very likely smeared and absorbed onto the panties. The cotton of the panties could have been sufficient to absorb the small amount of blood so that there was none on the pubic area which was wiped down anyway.

could be,but if the movie was portrayed accurately,I recall the clip showing long streaks.it was just a very brief clip though.

 

[JMO8778]

DeeDee249,

But were they? None were discovered, and I have never seen any mention of empty gift wrapping with or without Jenny's name tag on it being found. You may be correct that Pam Paugh removed them?

I remember from an interview where Patsy is reminded that there should be some empty wrapping left behind. e.g. would an intruder take the gift wrapping too?


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but weren't there some partially wrapped packages found,which some think are actually partially *unwrapped packages? I do recall that somewhere...

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,


I agree, this is probably why she was never questioned further on this topic, because the investigators knew she had lied, and did not want to offer her any further wriggle room, come a trial.

good point.

Maybe the PDI is correct but John's input was designed to confuse the investigators over signs of chronic abuse?

That is there was three or more staging episodes e.g.

1. Patsy cleans up and redresses Jonbenet.

2. Patsy stages the wine-cellar garroting.

3. John stages the sexual assault, wipes her down, to prevent the blood showing for the reasons you suggest, then wraps JonBenet in the blanket depositing her back into the wine-cellar?


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could be,JR appears to have been involved in at least some of the staging,and who knows what else?
but it's Patsy's guilty behavior,and the rest of the evidence available,that makes me think she inflicted the initial attack on JB.When she appeared on CNN,she should have just been wearing a GUILTY sign on her forehead.she was that obvious,IMO.
But think about it this way...would JR have let her appear on national tv,highly medicated,if HE had been the one that killed JB? There would be too much chance she could slip up on him.He was sitting on the edge of his seat as it was!

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

But were they? None were discovered, and I have never seen any mention of empty gift wrapping with or without Jenny's name tag on it being found. You may be correct that Pam Paugh removed them?

I remember from an interview where Patsy is reminded that there should be some empty wrapping left behind. e.g. would an intruder take the gift wrapping too?


.

There were unwrapped gifts in the basement, possibly even in the wineceller. You can see the distinctive gift wrap in some of the crime scene photos on Acandyrose. In the list of evidence noted, these were described as "partially wrapped". I believe this description was misleading. They are "partially UN-wrapped". No one "partially wraps" a gift when wrapping. It doesn't take that long to wrap a box. No one would stop in the middle. BUT- you can partially UNWRAP a box to see what was inside. THAT is how I believe the size-12s came to be put on JBR. PR knew she had purchased those size 12 for her niece and had them wrapped in the basement to be given to her when she saw her or to be sent along after Christmas. The point here is that as of Christmas night, they had NOT been given away YET. They were still in the R house. Available. And handily right there in the basement.
PR knew they were in one of the wrapped boxes, but since the boxes were wrapped, didn't know which box. So some boxes were unwrapped until they were found. In the panic of the night, obviously the boxed were not re-wrapped again, but rather just left as they were. When shown these boxes in crime scene photos by LE, PR was asked why they seemed to be unwrapped- a dirty basement is an odd place to open Christmas presents. PR then jumps at the chance to say that they are gifts she was wrapping.

 

[UKGuy]

There were unwrapped gifts in the basement, possibly even in the wineceller. You can see the distinctive gift wrap in some of the crime scene photos on Acandyrose. In the list of evidence noted, these were described as "partially wrapped". I believe this description was misleading. They are "partially UN-wrapped". No one "partially wraps" a gift when wrapping. It doesn't take that long to wrap a box. No one would stop in the middle. BUT- you can partially UNWRAP a box to see what was inside. THAT is how I believe the size-12s came to be put on JBR. PR knew she had purchased those size 12 for her niece and had them wrapped in the basement to be given to her when she saw her or to be sent along after Christmas. The point here is that as of Christmas night, they had NOT been given away YET. They were still in the R house. Available. And handily right there in the basement.
PR knew they were in one of the wrapped boxes, but since the boxes were wrapped, didn't know which box. So some boxes were unwrapped until they were found. In the panic of the night, obviously the boxed were not re-wrapped again, but rather just left as they were. When shown these boxes in crime scene photos by LE, PR was asked why they seemed to be unwrapped- a dirty basement is an odd place to open Christmas presents. PR then jumps at the chance to say that they are gifts she was wrapping.

DeeDee249,

There were unwrapped gifts in the basement, possibly even in the wineceller.

I'm confused about this, let me explain why.

You say there were xmas gifts in the basement as of xmas day, and "partially wrapped". as per your evidence list.

Next you say:

PR knew they were in one of the wrapped boxes, but since the boxes were wrapped, didn't know which box. So some boxes were unwrapped until they were found.

So as per your analysis if JonBenet had lived, just how would Patsy know which gifts were for who, would she have to unwrap them all, identify the intended recipient, then re-wrap them up again?

When shown these boxes in crime scene photos by LE, PR was asked why they seemed to be unwrapped- a dirty basement is an odd place to open Christmas presents. PR then jumps at the chance to say that they are gifts she was wrapping.

Very strange, without gift-tags, I would suggest they are partially wrapped to assist placing gift-tags on them. Thats if they really belonged in the basement, and were not simply placed there e.g. the collection of photographs.

Also why would Patsy need to unwrap gifts she had recently wrapped, surely she would know which gift-wrapping was intended for which recipient. It makes more sense for someone other than Patsy, unable to identify the gift-wrapping, to need to unwrap them to find the size-12's.


Curiously the size-12's have many unanswered questions.



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