MI MI - Patricia Spencer, 16, & Pamela Hobley, 15, Oscoda, 31 Oct 1969

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Here is a small part of a basic rundown made by LE for Pamela and Patricia that I received as part of a records request for the Harold Covey case. Just wanted to share this to help clear up a few things.

1. The base had a pretty significant population while in operation, but due to it being a military base, Oscoda was a revolving door when it came to people coming and going.

2. Due to these various people, along with locals, Oscoda was a pretty significant area for drug crimes, and the drugs were not just limited to weed and hallucinogens.

I'll place in a request to see what else they'll release in regards to this case, but it may be that they don't release much because they were both minors.
 

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MichiganTrueCrimer said:
Here is a small part of a basic rundown made by LE for Pamela and Patricia that I received as part of a records request for the Harold Covey case. Just wanted to share this to help clear up a few things.

1. The base had a pretty significant population while in operation, but due to it being a military base, Oscoda was a revolving door when it came to people coming and going.

2. Due to these various people, along with locals, Oscoda was a pretty significant area for drug crimes, and the drugs were not just limited to weed and hallucinogens.

I'll place in a request to see what else they'll release in regards to this case, but it may be that they don't release much because they were both minors.
Click to expand...

Interesting that part of the report states they interviewed the mothers of Pamela and Patricia and that, according to the moms, the girls didn't know each other. Mom's usually don't know a whole lot about who their teenage kids hang out with. It seems unlikely two girls would be walking down the same road separately and get kidnapped. The women also said the girls hung out with "black and white airman (airmen?) from the base.
Thank you for posting!
 
Betty P said:
Interesting that part of the report states they interviewed the mothers of Pamela and Patricia and that, according to the moms, the girls didn't know each other. Mom's usually don't know a whole lot about who their teenage kids hang out with. It seems unlikely two girls would be walking down the same road separately and get kidnapped. The women also said the girls hung out with "black and white airman (airmen?) from the base.
Thank you for posting!
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that they didn't know each other, but it appears that they weren't established friends to the best of their parents knowledge. That being said, everyone wasn't friends with people, up until they were. I don't know too much about this case, even with being a local, but hopefully the record request will shine some more light on the situation.

This isn't a very populated area since the base has closed down, but there is a MASSIVE amount of national forest and tons of bodies of water here. Most of it is well known for hunting and fishing, so the area is traveled pretty frequently, but that doesn't really mean too much. Many of the roads that went through the nation forest then, are closed or blocked off now.
 
MichiganTrueCrimer said:
I'm not sure that they didn't know each other, but it appears that they weren't established friends to the best of their parents knowledge. That being said, everyone wasn't friends with people, up until they were. I don't know too much about this case, even with being a local, but hopefully the record request will shine some more light on the situation.

This isn't a very populated area since the base has closed down, but there is a MASSIVE amount of national forest and tons of bodies of water here. Most of it is well known for hunting and fishing, so the area is traveled pretty frequently, but that doesn't really mean too much. Many of the roads that went through the nation forest then, are closed or blocked off now.
Click to expand...

Not to cast aspersions on the military, but with so many people on a base, coming and going, there's often opportunity for crime. Interesting information about the large national forest, its a strong possibility. That or the lake.
 
Betty P said:
Interesting that part of the report states they interviewed the mothers of Pamela and Patricia and that, according to the moms, the girls didn't know each other. Mom's usually don't know a whole lot about who their teenage kids hang out with. It seems unlikely two girls would be walking down the same road separately and get kidnapped. The women also said the girls hung out with "black and white airman (airmen?) from the base.
Thank you for posting!
Click to expand...

MichiganTrueCrimer said:
I'm not sure that they didn't know each other, but it appears that they weren't established friends to the best of their parents knowledge. That being said, everyone wasn't friends with people, up until they were. I don't know too much about this case, even with being a local, but hopefully the record request will shine some more light on the situation.

This isn't a very populated area since the base has closed down, but there is a MASSIVE amount of national forest and tons of bodies of water here. Most of it is well known for hunting and fishing, so the area is traveled pretty frequently, but that doesn't really mean too much. Many of the roads that went through the nation forest then, are closed or blocked off now.
Click to expand...
One possibility is that they were enticed to party with a couple of airmen and were then raped and murdered when they wouldn't consent to sex.

Another similar possibility is that the girls hooked up with some men at the base willingly but were murdered so that they couldn't tell anyone about the statutory rape of Pamela, who was below the age of consent.

Here in Michigan we had a couple of teen girls, Jennifer Wicks and Cassandra Fiolek, who were murdered because the two guys who killed them didn't want to get collared for statutory rape (so instead they're both doing life without parole for murder).

Of course, Patricia and Pamela could have been killed by a single offender. It wouldn't have been that difficult for an adult male (or even a teenage male) to take control of two girls.

MichiganTrueCrimer said:
Here is a small part of a basic rundown made by LE for Pamela and Patricia that I received as part of a records request for the Harold Covey case. Just wanted to share this to help clear up a few things.

1. The base had a pretty significant population while in operation, but due to it being a military base, Oscoda was a revolving door when it came to people coming and going.

2. Due to these various people, along with locals, Oscoda was a pretty significant area for drug crimes, and the drugs were not just limited to weed and hallucinogens.

I'll place in a request to see what else they'll release in regards to this case, but it may be that they don't release much because they were both minors.
Click to expand...
One thing that gave me pause in that document was where it stated that "[Frederick] Davis said he spent the first part of November in Jail [sic], and when he was released he didn't have a car to give anyone a ride."

The girls were abducted on October 31, so what does it matter where Davis spent the first part of November? Where was he on October 31st? Nevertheless, if Davis really did pick up two teen girls in Mio, it could have been any teen girls. There's no reason to think that the girls were Patricia and Pamela. Mio and Oscoda are close to two hours apart because there is no direct route and the expressway doesn't run through either.

By the way, where the report mentions "Ronald Collins b/m," does b/m mean black male? I'd like to know more about him and whether he has an arrest record. Several tips apparently placed the girls with him, so that angle should be a high priority.
 
Ozoner said:
One possibility is that they were enticed to party with a couple of airmen and were then raped and murdered when they wouldn't consent to sex.

Another similar possibility is that the girls hooked up with some men at the base willingly but were murdered so that they couldn't tell anyone about the statutory rape of Pamela, who was below the age of consent.

Here in Michigan we had a couple of teen girls, Jennifer Wicks and Cassandra Fiolek, who were murdered because the two guys who killed them didn't want to get collared for statutory rape (so instead they're both doing life without parole for murder).

Of course, Patricia and Pamela could have been killed by a single offender. It wouldn't have been that difficult for an adult male (or even a teenage male) to take control of two girls.


One thing that gave me pause in that document was where it stated that "[Frederick] Davis said he spent the first part of November in Jail [sic], and when he was released he didn't have a car to give anyone a ride."

The girls were abducted on October 31, so what does it matter where Davis spent the first part of November? Where was he on October 31st? Nevertheless, if Davis really did pick up two teen girls in Mio, it could have been any teen girls. There's no reason to think that the girls were Patricia and Pamela. Mio and Oscoda are close to two hours apart because there is no direct route and the expressway doesn't run through either.

By the way, where the report mentions "Ronald Collins b/m," does b/m mean black male? I'd like to know more about him and whether he has an arrest record. Several tips apparently placed the girls with him, so that angle should be a high priority.
Click to expand...
I too wondered why it mattered where he was in early November? To play devils advocate, however, if you were looking to hit some desolate areas, going from Oscoda to Mio via travelling through Glennie and Mckinley, you'd find plenty of it. However, I find it unlikely that the girls he was alleged to have picked up would have been Pamela and Patricia. People from Oscoda would have been far more likely to go to Alpena than to Mio.

Yes, b/m means black male. I haven't done too much digging into him, but if they release the reports to me, I'm sure it will contain information about him. If it does, I suspect I could find a way to place a record request for his past criminal history.
 
MichiganTrueCrimer said:
I too wondered why it mattered where he was in early November? To play devils advocate, however, if you were looking to hit some desolate areas, going from Oscoda to Mio via travelling through Glennie and Mckinley, you'd find plenty of it. However, I find it unlikely that the girls he was alleged to have picked up would have been Pamela and Patricia. People from Oscoda would have been far more likely to go to Alpena than to Mio.

Yes, b/m means black male. I haven't done too much digging into him, but if they release the reports to me, I'm sure it will contain information about him. If it does, I suspect I could find a way to place a record request for his past criminal history.
Click to expand...

At least this confirms the direction of the initial investigation. LE did focus on suspects who were stationed at the base, possibly based on tips they got from friends and other locals. It narrows things down considerably. If one or both of the girls had been raped, the attackers could have been worried about the girls reporting it to LE. If they already had criminal records, it would mean the end of the military and a stretch of time in prison. So they killed the victims to keep them quiet. JMO
 
Betty P said:
It seems unlikely two girls would be walking down the same road separately and get kidnapped.
Click to expand...
Not as unusual as a lot of people might think. For instance Ted Bundy removed two separate women at two separate times from the same beach on the same day.

I worry that this case may be similar to the Sumter County, SC Jane & John Doe case where it took 40 years to identify them because everyone assumed since they were found together they must have been a couple, when they were actually two separate missing people from different parts of the country, but no one seemed to be looking for a single missing person.

They were seen walking down the road at the same time which would make it appear that they were together but could have split up further down the road, one or both hitchhiking, or both may have had a ride waiting. (I never put much clout in people who show up years later claiming they saw them or picked them up. You get false sightings of missing people all the time from people reporting the information within hours or days a person goes missing.)

With the new DNA testings so many John & Jane Does are being identified as runaways who are killed in accidents, drug overdoses or drowning several states away and are never traced back to their origins until they get a DNA match.
 
hi guys. again, i used to live in oscoda. i always thought that it’s a possibility that they’re on the island on the water on loud road? i know of some Does found in remote locations like that. when i was younger, we never knew what it was used for or who owned it. i live by detroit now & i would really like to get up to Oscoda one day to search. one of her younger sisters is still alive & still has hope to find their bodies. oscoda is a super quiet city with a lot of drug users. i lived next to one 9 years ago & he was definitely older & weird. the other neighbors were 100% fine & even sent me my old address incase i needed to report anything. i just wish someone would talk because it’s been SO long. i’ve always agreed that it’s likely someone in the city that did whatever. Pam had gotten engaged to an airman & he was questioned as well but i never heard of his name. i hope someone like that is someone cops/detectives still background check to see if he has like domestic/sexual abuse charges, or even drug charges. anyone could’ve done it if the girls just “disappeared.” also just something i was thinking of last night, my boyfriend would search the ends of the world for me if i went missing & i asked him before. this fiancé has never came out & i’m guessing forgot about someone he was going to get married to? i’m a server (i’m 18 in college) & there’s a man that talks about his girlfriend he was dating as teenagers that went missing 30+ years ago. she was recovered but again, you’d *think* the fiancé would’ve maybe came out by now? he would’ve known her best.
 
shaejivy said:
hi guys. again, i used to live in oscoda. i always thought that it’s a possibility that they’re on the island on the water on loud road? i know of some Does found in remote locations like that. when i was younger, we never knew what it was used for or who owned it. i live by detroit now & i would really like to get up to Oscoda one day to search. one of her younger sisters is still alive & still has hope to find their bodies. oscoda is a super quiet city with a lot of drug users. i lived next to one 9 years ago & he was definitely older & weird. the other neighbors were 100% fine & even sent me my old address incase i needed to report anything. i just wish someone would talk because it’s been SO long. i’ve always agreed that it’s likely someone in the city that did whatever. Pam had gotten engaged to an airman & he was questioned as well but i never heard of his name. i hope someone like that is someone cops/detectives still background check to see if he has like domestic/sexual abuse charges, or even drug charges. anyone could’ve done it if the girls just “disappeared.” also just something i was thinking of last night, my boyfriend would search the ends of the world for me if i went missing & i asked him before. this fiancé has never came out & i’m guessing forgot about someone he was going to get married to? i’m a server (i’m 18 in college) & there’s a man that talks about his girlfriend he was dating as teenagers that went missing 30+ years ago. she was recovered but again, you’d *think* the fiancé would’ve maybe came out by now? he would’ve known her best.
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The island on Van Etten lake?
 
Quick update, my initial FOIA request was never properly responded to. Instead of going the legal route of addressing them not responding to it, in the required time, I'm just going to send another request. I'll note that they've already sent me a portion of their file when they sent me records for the Harold Covey case. If they're reluctant, or just not releasing the filee, as others have claimed, then this is likely the best approach.
 
hey guys. tomorrow will be 53 years since these girls were last seen. super upsetting:(i will be checking unidentified bodies soon again. no old bones or anything their description has been found in michigan this year.

just to get everyone’s mind going on this case again, i will share my thoughts on what i think happened to them. to be hopeful, sometimes i think that maybe they did successfully run away. i do search for bodies found in other states. although no evidence of them being friends or anything, maybe they thought they were coming back? another situation could be that they were literally kidnapped. i lived in oscoda so i KNOW the majority of older people are all very close in the town. this is relevant because there were two girls. there would need to be one strong man to take two girls forcefully. or multiple men that keep quiet to save each other. i strongly believe it could’ve been people who lived in the city & still do. i had strange neighbors on one side that knew a whole bunch of other strange people. strange as in they did drugs & they were older like around 50/60. another thing i feel like needs to be mentioned is that people have always torn down their missing flyers… even when it first happened. i asked my uncle who graduated from oscoda high school in 2016 if he even knew abt the girls & he said no. i can’t believe that not one person had ever mentioned it to him & he was literally in the school where the girls were last saw. i feel like it’s clearly being hidden by people that are still around. i was in such disbelief that with around 18+ teachers while he was there, no one had mentioned these girls. & to add, it’s not posted at all in the oscoda community group. im thinking maybe i’ll post it & see what happens.
 
Thanks for keeping this case going. IMHO it is hard to imagine that people can disappear seemingly into thin air. It is even more confusing when it is two or more people. This is sad for their families. It is difficult to solve crimes today and very hard during that time.

I wonder if LE had any thoughts on who could have done this. When reviewing the file, I wonder how many people are still around or alive. Not having either found, it makes it even more difficult. Curious about any alibis or witness statements.

Thanks
 
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