Must Have Books?

[sissi]

Twinkiesmom, I suppose twinkie isn't a little girl?
BTW, my terms are not "lay" terms, they are quite correct in the clinical sense.
I tried to find something for you , online, to explain what I suggest, this will do.

http://www.drkoop.com/ency/article/000897.htm

 

[twinkiesmom]

Twinkiesmom, I suppose twinkie isn't a little girl?
BTW, my terms are not "lay" terms, they are quite correct in the clinical sense.
QUOTE]



But you're using the word inflammation incorrectly. The autopsy findings are what was seen under the microscrope. It has nothing to do with vaginitis which is a macroscopic condition.

No, Twinkie is not a little girl, just as you're not a doctor. I'm not a doctor, but I read toxicology reports every day in my job. And I know how to separate the microscopic findings from the clinical observations.

 

[sissi]

Please tell, exactly what you think Meyer meant by using the term "chronic inflammation", if you don't mind.

 

[Nehemiah]

Twinkie'smom, do you read the autopsy report as her being molested prior to the murder?

 

[twinkiesmom]

Sissi,
The only use of chronic inflammation in the autopsy report with regard to the vaginal tissue is in the section of the microcroscopic results. The term used is "focal interstitial chronic inflammation."

Dorland's Medical Dictionary defines the following:
interstice (in·ter·stice) (in-ter¢stis) [L. interstitium] a small interval, space, or gap in a tissue or structure.

interstitial (in·ter·sti·tial) (in²t[schwa]r-stish¢[schwa]l) pertaining to or situated between parts or in the interstices of a tissue.

So the chronic inflammation in the autopsy report is not what Dr. Meyer observed with the naked eye such as the redness you might see after a bubble bath. The chronic inflammation he describes he saw within the tissue under a microscope.

I know I am not qualified to interpret these findings but if forensic pathologists and/or pediatricians interpret this as abuse than I am inclined to believe them.

Read Dr. Wecht's book, and then we'll talk.

 

[princessmer81]

I think I found a version of that statement here:

http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/

This is a very interesting analysis of the ransom note. The problem I have with it is that he says it is gramatically incorrect to say "and hence." He points out that the writer of the ransom note wrote "and hence" and in a Christmas message to their church the Ramsey's wrote "and hence." The author states that it would be very rare for both the "intruder" and the Ramseys to make the same error. In fact, it is correct to use "and hence" so that theory is flawed. I do agree with the author that "hence" is an uncommonly used phrase. I doubt that a foreigner would use the word "hence."

 

[sissi]

I've read Wecht's book.
I will not argue the point, I do know what I am talking about, suffice it to say we can play battle of the experts all day and continue to take our positions.

Wecht quote..oops..he used "chronic inflammation"..

"I have learned that the police called in three separate child sexual abuse experts," he reports. "They separately and independently came to the same conclusion that there was evidence of prior sexual abuse. Not that I needed anybody to hold my hand, but for saying that same thing I took abuse on national television from self-appointed Ramsey defenders and sycophants. But it's the most ridiculous thing in the world, a little girl with half of the hymen gone and she's dead, and you've got a tiny abrasion, a tiny contusion and a chronic inflammation of vaginal mucosa. That means it happened more than 72 hours earlier; we don't know how long, or how often it was repeated, but chronic means it wasn't from that night. This was a tragic, tragic accident. This was a game that had been played before."

end quote.

I WISH...WISH..that this was a true finding, it would certainly narrow the suspect list, giving us only those that had current access, but NO, it is not a fact, it is a guess, and there are as many "expert" guesses out there to counter.

 

[sissi]

This is a very interesting analysis of the ransom note. The problem I have with it is that he says it is gramatically incorrect to say "and hence." He points out that the writer of the ransom note wrote "and hence" and in a Christmas message to their church the Ramsey's wrote "and hence." The author states that it would be very rare for both the "intruder" and the Ramseys to make the same error. In fact, it is correct to use "and hence" so that theory is flawed. I do agree with the author that "hence" is an uncommonly used phrase. I doubt that a foreigner would use the word "hence."

Yep, and, that Christmas note was a year after the murder with the ransom note language part of the subconscious, likely making it mean nothing at all.
It was not authored by Patsy alone, either, it was a cooperative effort by several, including the Steins.

 

[twinkiesmom]

I've read Wecht's book.
I will not argue the point, I do know what I am talking about, suffice it to say we can play battle of the experts all day and continue to take our positions.

Wecht quote..oops..he used "chronic inflammation"..

"I have learned that the police called in three separate child sexual abuse experts," he reports. "They separately and independently came to the same conclusion that there was evidence of prior sexual abuse. Not that I needed anybody to hold my hand, but for saying that same thing I took abuse on national television from self-appointed Ramsey defenders and sycophants. But it's the most ridiculous thing in the world, a little girl with half of the hymen gone and she's dead, and you've got a tiny abrasion, a tiny contusion and a chronic inflammation of vaginal mucosa. That means it happened more than 72 hours earlier; we don't know how long, or how often it was repeated, but chronic means it wasn't from that night. This was a tragic, tragic accident. This was a game that had been played before."

end quote.

I WISH...WISH..that this was a true finding, it would certainly narrow the suspect list, giving us only those that had current access, but NO, it is not a fact, it is a guess, and there are as many "expert" guesses out there to counter.

Wecht is also referring to the microscopic findings. It's within the tissue, not just a surface observation.

And we're not talking about guesses, we're talking about expert opinions.

And the quote you gave makes even more sense to me...Wecht appears to be saying that JBR has minimal acute injuries from the night of her death...She's missing most of her hymen (per the autopsy report)...It's just missing without a fresh wound coinciding with the loss of tissue.

 

[Eagle1]

The Prince of Tides has already gone back to the library, and I really did look hard for the main point of it all. I just wanted to know how the therapist cured the twin sister after the guy twin told her about the repressed incident, a rape. Nope, I don't know anyone who's been raped, just curious. Like I said, I have other things to read before time to return them, and eyesight is suffering a little.

There may be a lot of others here who also would want to know this one detail, And I thank you for the title. It's a really rambling book, full of unrelated anecdotes complete with names ! The grandmother getting into the coffin to fool a neighbor, who declared she looked almost alive, I know the author just couldn't resist, but we may have heard it somewhere before. I suppose there was a scene like in "Sybil" when the twin was reminded, forced to deal with the rape.

 

[concernedperson]

The Prince of Tides has already gone back to the library, and I really did look hard for the main point of it all. I just wanted to know how the therapist cured the twin sister after the guy twin told her about the repressed incident, a rape. Nope, I don't know anyone who's been raped, just curious. Like I said, I have other things to read before time to return them, and eyesight is suffering a little.

There may be a lot of others here who also would want to know this one detail, And I thank you for the title. It's a really rambling book, full of unrelated anecdotes complete with names ! The grandmother getting into the coffin to fool a neighbor, who declared she looked almost alive, I know the author just couldn't resist, but we may have heard it somewhere before. I suppose there was a scene like in "Sybil" when the twin was reminded, forced to deal with the rape.

Most of the children were raped as well as the mother. But the convicts were killed by the one child who was watching the episode. He was the child who was later murdered by the police. The mother went into denial mode and thereby offered no assistence to her children and they were adversely affected by this incident. Then there was the brother who tried to protect them and they felt the guilt of their brother's murder over land I might add. It was intense and yes, there was anecdotes from time to time. But the point is, denial. How ugly denial is and how it affects others and what they might become because of it. I thought it was a great book but tragic!

 

[sissi]

Wecht is also referring to the microscopic findings. It's within the tissue, not just a surface observation.

And we're not talking about guesses, we're talking about expert opinions.

And the quote you gave makes even more sense to me...Wecht appears to be saying that JBR has minimal acute injuries from the night of her death...She's missing most of her hymen (per the autopsy report)...It's just missing without a fresh wound coinciding with the loss of tissue.

Your last sentence is contrary to all expert opinions.
Quote Wecht..
"My belief is that there was fresh, acute, sexual assault, and my belief is that there is evidence of older sexual assault.''

I do not agree with Wecht, as there have been experts counter his claim that there was an indication of prior abuse. However, as I have stated before, it would certainly limit the suspect pool and get this crime solved.

Carnes lost her credibility with some, but with others, such as myself ,she is believed to be ethical and honest.
12 The bleeding in JonBenet's genital area indicates she was alive when she was assaulted.
(SMF 48; PSMF 48.) Her hymen was torn and material consistent with wooden shards from
the paintbrush used to make the garrote were found in her vagina. (SMF 48-49; PMSF 48-49.)
No evidence, however, suggests that she was the victim of chronic sexual abuse. (SMF 50;
PSMF 50.)

 

[ScarlettOHara]

This is a very interesting analysis of the ransom note. The problem I have with it is that he says it is gramatically incorrect to say "and hence." He points out that the writer of the ransom note wrote "and hence" and in a Christmas message to their church the Ramsey's wrote "and hence." The author states that it would be very rare for both the "intruder" and the Ramseys to make the same error. In fact, it is correct to use "and hence" so that theory is flawed. I do agree with the author that "hence" is an uncommonly used phrase. I doubt that a foreigner would use the word "hence."

Hi all -- I've been lurking for some time. This is my first post here.

I work in a large public hospital. Our unit recently hired a doctor who was born and trained in the Phillipines. I was quite surprised to find, shortly after she started work, that she frequently uses the phrase "and hence" -- just like in the ransom note. For example, "The fetal heart rate slowed, and hence the C-section."

I'm dying to ask where she picked that up -- and tell her that it's grammatically incorrect, whether it is or not (LOL).

This doctor is the ONLY person I have ever known who has used this phrase habitually.

It's all the more puzzling because she doesn't speak English well. Maybe she attended the Subic Bay Training Center (haha) --SBTC.

 

[Eagle1]

I'm curious too. Did she pick up the phrase from someone in the legal profession, where she may have had some kind of case, or in religion? Maybe a Jim Jones type "missionary"? She may even say she doesn't remember where she got it.

 

[Eagle1]

Isn't it amazing how our culture habitually blames everything on mothers? Why? Because they were able to supply all our needs in the uncomplicated beginning of our lives, and we expected that to be permanent? We expect mothers to be able to solve all problems?

The father in The Prince of Tides was such a brute, the children hated him, and the mother ended up leaving him, nothing else she could do. The author said men just aren't taught to love. Can't be done? The father fell apart and asked how he was going to live w/out her when he learned the mother was divorcing him. "The other side of a bully is a coward."

Both the author and his mother coped by denial, putting the convict rapes and father's brutality behind them, much healthier than the girl twin's internalizing it all and trying to kill herself or change her identity. (Which Tom, the author twin, was also doing by telling his wife to tell his mother he wasn't there?) Would any of them have been helped by inviting gossips into the mess to make it even bigger? I think the mother's damage-control tactics and fortitude after the rapes was pretty smart, and Tom was just in a stage where he needed to blame her, but he rose to the occasion when he was the one who had to go to NY to help his twin sister.

Happy ending, though, if I remember correctly?

Nobody here found out the key to that, how they got the suicidal girl adjusted back to normal, so that (even though oldest brother got into a land dispute and got himself killed) they ended up finally one big happy family?

When I take some other books back, like "The New Jackals" I didn't even get to start on, I'll ask the librarians. Usually they've read some of everything. Even "When Bad Relatives Happen to Good People", which title just sounded like some interesting psychology study. I'd already read all of the college psych reading list except one book, before taking just a few psych courses, and the gist of it was that this is an evolving science. No guarantees.

 

[Eagle1]

Tomorrow I may be going to the library. Hope I don't forget to ask around.
Doesn't anyone else want to know?

 

[close_enough]

Isn't some of that book about recovered repressed memory? Recovered memories has been scientifically proven over and over in the past decade to be unreliable.

i saw the movie Prince of Tides years ago...Barbra Streisand (sp) played the shrink, & Nick Nolte was the patient....he had all kinds of repressed memories, that were all brought out, by the end of the movie...best i can remember, the movie was just awful....imo

 

[Eagle1]

I hope I can remember to ask the librarians if they've read the book. Maybe the author never did get to how the twin sister was healed. Instead, he took us on all sorts of irrelevant side trips with evidently peoples' real names, who would probably file suit if they'd read it or heard of it ! I can imagine, they must have made it into a movie just because it was so long, and nobody read all of it to notice the most important thing was missing (?) So I guess the movie didn't tell how the suicidal sister was healed either.

 

[Kaly]

DOI is Patsy's confession.

How do you feel about A Mother Gone Bad? That is supposed to be Patsy's confession. I just ordered one from Amazon, and it was interesting what the reviews said.

Which book is better? IYO?

 

[BrotherMoon]

Patsy didn't write AMGB, so how could she confess in it?

Hodges makes the mistake of doing associations with another person's material and then drawing conclusions about that person from his associations. He is also crippled by Freudianism. (Excuse the F word.)

I'd just stick to Wecht's, Thomas', Schiller's and McLean's books, also Mindhunter. DOI is a must.

And of course, The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie (play, book and movie), and The Psalms are musts. And read Red Dragon and Silence of the Lambs, just for fun.