NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #10

[Fireweed]

There is a reason why this case has kept people riveted for 10 years. To me it is the most bizarre missing person's case I have ever heard of. Sure, plenty of people go missing under weird circumstances, but Maura went missing within a 10 minute time frame (if you get my drift). We have people who are last seen on a Tuesday, and their car is found abandon on a Saturday, and you think, well, anything could have happened in those four days.

But what could have realistically happened in less than 15 minutes? Not a lot. Fred Murray now thinks a "dirtbag" got her. I think that is a possibility, but I cannot help but be convinced by the high improbability of that theory. A young woman who is having some problems, who seems like she is getting away from something, crashes her car in a very remote spot, and then just so happens upon one of those very rare people who is a psycho killer/kidnapper? It seems so very unlikely to me, but John Green over on the Maura blog made a very good point about this deduction that I cannot help but question my once firm conviction on the matter:

We are not deciding probability of a "dirtbag" based upon a random woman walking through that area, we are deciding probability of a "dirtbag" based upon a missing young woman from that area. For example, most days I personally take a walk where I live. I live out in the country and there are not a lot of people around. Every single day that I take a walk, the probability of me running into a psycho killer is minuscule. However, if I did not return from my walk and had vanished, then the probability that I had encountered a rapist/kidnapper/psycho is now very high.

I understand the statistical reasoning behind this logic, but I still just find it very hard to believe that Maura, a person who seemed like she was in the mindset of getting away for the week, just so happened, within a very short time frame, to have run into a very rare random killer.

 

[Fireweed]

I can see how the dad is viewed as suspicious, but I could also see how the family was just horrified by all the negative speculation, and they meant we will "never" know why she up there simply by analyzing her behavior. I think they realize she was having emotional problems that likely contributed, but that her thinking may not have been rational and we're not going to be able to simply explain it by figuring out if she was drunk during the crash, or if she stole money, or what. We can't really narrow it down beyond she was upset or overwhelmed and wanted a break or to harm herself - and even that could be wrong. The details underlying it are unlikely to matter if they haven't turned up a strong lead by now. They probably want all the focus to be on what happened after that accident, not before.

My problem with this reasoning is that we do not know what the family knows, so we do not know if something from Maura's past would have turned up a very strong lead by now. For example, nowhere was it reported that Maura was in trouble for credit card fraud until Renner revealed this a couple years ago. Under the Fred Murray version of events, Maura taking off like that did not make hardly any sense at all. But under the Renner version, I see a young woman who was much more troubled than her father would have us believe.

Does Maura's credit card fraud change my theories about what happened to her? No, not really. However, it does give me pause. It makes me wonder what else about her life is not being revealed that may give us big clues to finding her. Some people think she was "sleeping around." Hearing this does not make me think she was a "*advertiser censored*", rather it makes me wonder if she was meeting up with some guy up there, and if finding out who he was would lead to Maura being found.

Her family is acting as the guardian of her past and they have unilaterally decided that only a few things from her past are relevant to finding her, but they do not know every single thing about Maura's life. She was not a 2 year old, she was a 21 year old grown woman. There may be a clue in her past to help find her, but we will not know about it if the family keeps it a secret!

I want to make something very, very clear: I have absolutely nothing against the Murray family personally. I do not know these people, and I have never met them. I have sympathy for them as people who have a missing loved one, and I also have sympathy for them as people who do not want to air a family member's "dirty laundry." I get it; that would suck. However, I cannot take what they say at face value. I cannot hear them say over and over again that Maura's past is "irrelevant" without being totally baffled and wondering how the hell they would possibly know that.

Maura Murray is not the property of her family. She is an individual who is missing and may at this very moment be in harm's way. I do not think it is ethical to worry so much about the family's hurt feelings in circumstances like this. After the Cleveland case, I simply cannot bring myself to think that someone's feelings takes precedence over another person's life and well-being. It does not seem fair to Maura. On the chance that Maura is right now chained in some guy's basement (like those three women in Cleveland), then I think the public owes it to her to rigorously investigate her case. The fact of the matter is, is that listening to Maura's family has not brought us any closer to finding her than the very night she went missing.

I just think that Maura deserves better than a collective complacency just because it has been ten years and the family insists on something one way or the other. As i said a few posts up, I really hope that you all would do the same for me should I ever go missing. We can listen to Maura's family do as they direct us, and let Maura go missing for another ten years, or we can actually try and do something to find her.

 

[lawstudent]

^That is true, they don't know everything. But presumably if there were other men, some trace of that would have been found by now and those guys would have been questioned. If she had been having electronic conversations or there was other evidence regarding her fear of punishment over the credit cards, or growing alcoholism, or something of the sort, they'd have come out. It seems like most of it was going on in her head, unless those closest to her were lying about conversations. So it's hard to draw a link between any one problem and her disappearance. The fact that she was troubled is relevant to why she might run, so the credit card thing is important in that particular sense, but once we've determined that, we still don't know where the heck she ended up. Even if she was troubled and decided to hurt herself or run from the law, it doesn't really help explain how no one has found her.

 

[Fireweed]

This is what I am saying: we do not know if guys were questioned, and if they were, we do not know what they said. We do not know hardly anything at all, thus we do not know if there was a link one way or the other. We must rely on Maura's family to tell us there was a link and they do not strike me as being sincere when it comes to what they communicate with the public.

It may be hard to draw a link between any one problem and her disappearance, but not necessary between a whole lot of problems and her disappearance.

 

[scoops]

This is what I am saying: we do not know if guys were questioned, and if they were, we do not know what they said. We do not know hardly anything at all, thus we do not know if there was a link one way or the other. We must rely on Maura's family to tell us there was a link and they do not strike me as being sincere when it comes to what they communicate with the public.

It may be hard to draw a link between any one problem and her disappearance, but not necessary between a whole lot of problems and her disappearance.

So the family isn't sincere, yet when fred says he now thinks a local "dirtbag" took his daughter. You automatically think that its gospel truth?

 

[nevereverever]

Firstly, Maura's actions on the day she disappeared are key to solving this case in my opinion. I do not believe she planned to commit suicide. The reason for this is because despite what the media likes to tell us about people just *snapping*, it rarely ever happens. There are are always warning signs (often people are in denial and do not wish to acknowledge them but they are always there- even if highly subtle). Maura had no history of depression or self harm (as far as we know). We know she was a troubled young woman but she had expressed no suicidal ideation or wish to end her life permanently. In my mind, her trip into Bartlett was a *temporary escape* rather than a permanent one.If she were planning to kill herself she would not have packed up all her belongings and lied to her tutors about having a death in the family and needing a week off. These are not the actions of someone who plans to end their life permanently.

Honestly, everything about what she did that day points to suicide to me, especially the packing up of all her belongings. Why email her professors about why she'd be missing class? Because she didn't want anyone coming to look for her. Why pack up all her stuff? So her family wouldn't have to do it when she was gone. There were plenty of signs she was struggling with depression. She appeared to have an eating disorder, was drinking (and driving), went off into the mountains with what appears to be, at most, two outfits, but plenty of booze. I'm not saying she DID commit suicide. Until her body is found (and even then, no guarantee), there is no way to know for sure. But there is plenty of evidence to suggest that possibility.

 

[scoops]

Honestly, everything about what she did that day points to suicide to me, especially the packing up of all her belongings. Why email her professors about why she'd be missing class? Because she didn't want anyone coming to look for her. Why pack up all her stuff? So her family wouldn't have to do it when she was gone. There were plenty of signs she was struggling with depression. She appeared to have an eating disorder, was drinking (and driving), went off into the mountains with what appears to be, at most, two outfits, but plenty of booze. I'm not saying she DID commit suicide. Until her body is found (and even then, no guarantee), there is no way to know for sure. But there is plenty of evidence to suggest that possibility.

She also brought with her a book that is all about people's last moments on earth and the amazing courage they display right before they perish (on hiking trails in mountains) which happen to be some of the same mountains that Maura was in the vincinity of as I understand when she went missing.


here is an actual description of the book Maura had with her.

"These compelling profiles of 22 adventurous yet unlucky climbers chronicle more than a century of exploration, recreation, and tragedy in New Hampshire's Presidential Range."

 

[Lolacat]

Welcome aboard the crazy train Lolacat!

So you think Maura was planning to get away for a week to clear her mind?

Believe me, this theory has been gone over ad nauseum for years. It is a popular theory in fact.

But questions for you.

Would someone really need to take a week to catch a break when they just got back to school from a two month winter break less than 14 days earlier?

Would someone that is going away for a one week break, pack up their dorm and leave everything behind? ... For what, so they could come back from their mini-vacation and have to unpack everything once again?

Would someone who is going away for a one week break, bring less than 2 full outfits (One sweater, one pair of sweatpants and the clothes they have on them at the time) with them (to last them the entire week)?


?

Thanks guys

To answer your question scoops- yes, I think someone could very well need a break if their personal circumstances were so troubling to them that they just couldn't face the idea of returning to their course. When I was in my early 20s I was working part time and also studying for a degree part time. My personal life was a shambles, I had just broken up with the guy I thought I'd end up marrying and my mum was in and out of remission for cancer. I used alcohol as a crutch, much similar to Maura and of course, alcohol is a depressant and it just makes everything 100 times worse. I spiralled out of control in a very similar manner to Maura (in a weird parallel, I even crashed my car and lied to my dad about how it happened who paid to have it fixed). Its incredibly frightening to feel that everything is unravelling and you cannot talk to anyone about it because you dont want even more judgement or well intentioned advice from people who really dont know where you are coming from. There is also an element of not wanting to let people down.

Her packing up her dorm belongings is puzzling. My initial thoughts were that maybe she was planning to move completely out of the dorm when she returned from bartlett into different accommodation. Wasnt she involved in some kind of credit card theft? you know what university is like for gossip- I imagine if she had ripped off another student (which is what I've read) then her dorms would be a very unpleasant place for her to be. Everyone would be looking at her with shifty eyes.

The clothing is not so odd in my mind. If all she was planning to do was run, hang out and drink in the evenings then she wouldn't have such need for many outfits.

One thing I am ABSOLUTELY convinced about is that Maura's family, in particular, Fred, is not telling us everything. I think Maura was in some kind of trouble that clearly, he doesnt want to share. Of course, I understand his need to protect his daughter- he doesnt want her name dragged through the mud or to damage her reputation since its vital if people are going to help him they have some empathy or sympathy for Maura. I dont think Fred is directly involved in her disappearance but he is definitely holding back details. From Fred's demeanour he also seems to have some emotional problems of his own. I also find his insistence that *what happened to Maura prior to her disappearance is irrelevant* to be completely bizarre. Of course its relevant- the only reason he wouldn't be wanting to share this was if it reflected badly on Maura.

I find it interesting that the ONLY people she informed about her intentions were her college tutors. If you were in a highly emotional state wanting to end your life would you really make the effort to tell your tutors but not anyone from your family whom you supposedly love? If it were me, the absolute last people on my mind would be my tutors. I'd be like *eff them* lol.

Its just so so weird.

 

[Lolacat]

Honestly, everything about what she did that day points to suicide to me, especially the packing up of all her belongings. Why email her professors about why she'd be missing class? Because she didn't want anyone coming to look for her. Why pack up all her stuff? So her family wouldn't have to do it when she was gone. There were plenty of signs she was struggling with depression. She appeared to have an eating disorder, was drinking (and driving), went off into the mountains with what appears to be, at most, two outfits, but plenty of booze. I'm not saying she DID commit suicide. Until her body is found (and even then, no guarantee), there is no way to know for sure. But there is plenty of evidence to suggest that possibility.

I see where you are coming from but its actually very very difficult to commit suicide in a way that conceals your own body. If she had run into the woods and done it, wouldn't the dogs have found her scent? she can't have got that far on foot. Also, I dont know how things are at her college, but if a student doesnt turn up to class where I am, the tutors dont immediately launch a huge search party for them. They would never have time to check up on every student that oversleeps and misses a class, its a very common occurrence. I dont know, I just feel deep down that she met with foul play. When I think about her case, the main impression I get is feeling out of control. Drinking out of control, car out of control, feelings out of control. Ultimately, I dont feel she was a person who was in control of her eventual fate

 

[scoops]

I see where you are coming from but its actually very very difficult to commit suicide in a way that conceals your own body. If she had run into the woods and done it, wouldn't the dogs have found her scent? she can't have got that far on foot. Also, I dont know how things are at her college, but if a student doesnt turn up to class where I am, the tutors dont immediately launch a huge search party for them. They would never have time to check up on every student that oversleeps and misses a class, its a very common occurrence. I dont know, I just feel deep down that she met with foul play. When I think about her case, the main impression I get is feeling out of control. Drinking out of control, car out of control, feelings out of control. Ultimately, I dont feel she was a person who was in control of her eventual fate

All official searches have been done for Maura very close to where her car was found. Who says that is where Maura ultimately perished?

Statistics do back up that a person who has had an automobile accident and can't be found, will eventually be found within a few miles of where they had the accident (especially if it was a severe accident involving injury) but statistics for those kind of accident's aren't taking into consideration someone who was going through the emotional drama that Maura was going through BEFORE the wreck.

Maura emailed her professors and her two bosses from her two jobs. If she was a no-show to her job that Monday night she went missing, it is very likely that word would get out fast. She worked with a friend at one of her job's. That friend would want to know why Maura was a no show, hence her family could ultimately be contacted that very same night.

Plus Maura wasn't just a typical college student that goes to a big lecture hall and sits and take notes. She was in clinicals at the time she went missing and her absence in the nursing program would be noticed much faster (IMO) than if she was just skipping out on some lectures

And finally, Maura had a book with her that was about the very same place she went missing at. (yet no one seems to be able to put two and two together)

If a friend of yours went missing and you found their car in the parking lot of Walt Disney World in Florida and inside their car was a map of Disney World and a book about all the cool rides. ... Would you not think that just maybe, you should look for your missing friend somewhere in Disney World?

Just a thought.

 

[Lolacat]

All official searches have been done for Maura very close to where her car was found. Who says that is where Maura ultimately perished?

Statistics do back up that a person who has had an automobile accident and can't be found, will eventually be found within a few miles of where they had the accident (especially if it was a severe accident involving injury) but statistics for those kind of accident's aren't taking into consideration someone who was going through the emotional drama that Maura was going through BEFORE the wreck.

Maura emailed her professors and her two bosses from her two jobs. If she was a no-show to her job that Monday night she went missing, it is very likely that word would get out fast. She worked with a friend at one of her job's. That friend would want to know why Maura was a no show, hence her family could ultimately be contacted that very same night.

Plus Maura wasn't just a typical college student that goes to a big lecture hall and sits and take notes. She was in clinicals at the time she went missing and her absence in the nursing program would be noticed much faster (IMO) than if she was just skipping out on some lectures

And finally, Maura had a book with her that was about the very same place she went missing at. (yet no one seems to be able to put two and two together)

If a friend of yours went missing and you found their car in the parking lot of Walt Disney World in Florida and inside their car was a map of Disney World and a book about all the cool rides. ... Would you not think that just maybe, you should look for your missing friend somewhere in Disney World?

Just a thought.

Good point. This is all plausible.

*IF* she did plan to commit suicide in the mountains then her car crash must have really thrown a wrench in the works. Has anyone searched the mountain area that the "not without peril" book talks of? I would have thought Fred would have made an effort to do so, even if the police weren't willing to spend their resources looking. Also, how would she have got there after the crash? she was on foot and a bit intoxicated and it was pitch black. I would have thought if she still wanted to continue with her plan she would have waited until the next day?

 

[OldSteve]

I think he knows she was emotional and very upset anyway, IMO, he just thinks something happened to her after her accident in NH. Possibly, he thinks the rest (her past) is just muddying the waters. It is all noise. I can see why he feels this way. Possibly, he feels it is a waste of time. He wants to know what happened to her after the accident in NH. I can't really speak for him, but this is my impression.

If we dredge up her past, it still doesn't tell us what happened to her. It hasn't helped so far. She's been picked a part for almost 10 years. So far, we know that she was an emotional wreck, but we still haven't found her. Now, we are moving on to picking apart the rest of the family? I don't think this is helpful. IMO, I think she isn't alive, unfortunately. I hope she is found someday, so there is at least some partial closure for the family.

JMO

All so true! OT - but as some know I took off when I was young and in school... under lots of stress etc... Lucky for me nothing bad happened. Most likely because I'm a male... looking back on it now, if were a gal, you might be reading about me here instead... and I can easily see how all sorts of things would be looked into prior to my going missing... even suspecting my family perhaps, or others...
But I really agree with Fred in that all that happened before doesn't matter in terms of what happened to her after the crash... True, it can explain why she took off. But just as in my case, it really doesn't matter...
Okay, all just my opinion...

 

[OldSteve]

ETA to my above - I have to believe that Fred knew enough about Maura's private life to have felt the way he did. They were spending time together just before she took off, and I have a feeling he knew allot more about what was going on her life than we do..
I give him the benefit of any doubt, and it's important to not lose sight of the fact that he lost his daughter, and the nightmare of grief he has experienced.

 

[nevereverever]

Good point. This is all plausible.

*IF* she did plan to commit suicide in the mountains then her car crash must have really thrown a wrench in the works. Has anyone searched the mountain area that the "not without peril" book talks of? I would have thought Fred would have made an effort to do so, even if the police weren't willing to spend their resources looking. Also, how would she have got there after the crash? she was on foot and a bit intoxicated and it was pitch black. I would have thought if she still wanted to continue with her plan she would have waited until the next day?

She could've gotten a ride from someone passing through, or a relative local who has never wanted to get involved for fear of being accused or some other reason. Or she could have just gotten far enough on foot that she was never found via the searches. This is all my speculation (based on what we do know), but I think she had this grand plan to commit suicide on the mountain (hypothermia while you're drunk is a pretty painless way to die, as I understand it) that she loved so much, and then she got in that wreck, and it most definitely threw a wrench into things. I think she felt her life spinning out of control, and her suicide plan, with the emails and packing up her things, was her effort to take control of her life. And then, she got into a wreck, and her effort to take control was once again thwarted. It would have just made her feel even more like she had no control. I think she tried to kill herself in her car on the side of the road by putting the rag in the tailpipe, and quickly enough, realized that either wouldn't work, or people would come along and interrupt it, and so she took her booze and ran off into the woods.

I would not be shocked to find out that she met with foul play. Even if I do think she intended to kill herself, that doesn't mean that after the wreck, she didn't meet up with some bad guy who took advantage. But I just don't see how suicide can be ruled out, when there is so much that points to it.

 

[takeitfromme412]

This is really a very bizarre case... I have followed it since she went missing and I have followed brianna maitland too.... how nothing of either has been seen since is beyond me!!!! I do think that regardless of what maura's plan was that the end result was foul play

 

[Lolacat]

I notice over on James Renner's blog he seems VERY confident that this case will be solved "in a matter of weeks". He seems absolutely resolute that she disappeared voluntarily that night (driving in tandem with a secret boyfriend) and is living a new life in Canada. I have to wonder how easy it is to just start from scratch in this age of social media. Not to mention needing formal identification and documents for jobs/rent/getting a mortgage/hiring a car etc etc
I think I would also feel extremely vulnerable relying on another person, not only to keep my secret but to aid me financially and emotionally. Thats a heavy burden to place on someone else. I mean, what if they broke up? what then?

 

[scoops]

Good point. This is all plausible.

*IF* she did plan to commit suicide in the mountains then her car crash must have really thrown a wrench in the works. Has anyone searched the mountain area that the "not without peril" book talks of? I would have thought Fred would have made an effort to do so, even if the police weren't willing to spend their resources looking. Also, how would she have got there after the crash? she was on foot and a bit intoxicated and it was pitch black. I would have thought if she still wanted to continue with her plan she would have waited until the next day?

I actually think her original plans (minus the second car accident) were exactly just that (what I bolded above). She left late in the afternoon and if indeed her final destination was in the white mountains or surrounding area, then she knew in advance she would not be getting to the area until dark and the evening hours.

that is why I believe she took out enough money for a (1) night stay at a hotel.

And the next morning is when I believe she would've carried on through the trails. I surmise, she would've made up a suicide note that Monday night had she not had her wreck and would've left it in her car with the rest of her personal belongings (much like how she left her dorm) for family to take possession of once she was no longer around.

the second wreck did (IMO) change plans.

But with added panic now set in (that police were looking for her) I am guessing that her instincts would've been to accelerate her plans, not regroup and re-make new plans.

That is why I believe it is telling that Maura left the scene of her car accident (not with her valuables or clothes) but with just a backpack and alcohol.

If you are to believe the wacky (Maura was meeting someone theory) why in the world would Maura then not grab her personal belongings-- clothes/valuables) when her "Traveling in tandem friend" picked her up?

 

[Dixie811]

If Maura was planning to disappear and start a new life, it does not make sense to me why she would pack up her dorm room. I guess my impression is that most people who disappear to start a new life do not want their family to realize that is what happened. I guess they would rather their loved ones assume that something terrible happened to them than know that the missing person left willfully and try to find them and bring them back. Packing up the dorm room is sort of a dead giveaway that she was not planning on returning or continuing to live in the dorm, no? IMO, packing up the dorm fits with her planning to commit suicide or planning to leave school.

The poster above who stated that alerting your professors who oversee clinicals would be important if Maura did not want anyone to catch on to her absence right away was correct. It is much different than a college student not showing up to a week's worth of lectures. Even missing one clinical is a big deal and would cause people to wonder where Maura was. I think she wanted to buy some time so she could take care of whatever her intended 'business' was (whether it be suicide or just a break) without being bothered.

I don't have a firm theory in Maura's case, other than I don't believe she is alive. I would be highly surprised if Renner's theory is correct. Nonetheless, I find it interesting.

 

[OldSteve]

I actually think her original plans (minus the second car accident) were exactly just that (what I bolded above). She left late in the afternoon and if indeed her final destination was in the white mountains or surrounding area, then she knew in advance she would not be getting to the area until dark and the evening hours.

that is why I believe she took out enough money for a (1) night stay at a hotel.

And the next morning is when I believe she would've carried on through the trails. I surmise, she would've made up a suicide note that Monday night had she not had her wreck and would've left it in her car with the rest of her personal belongings (much like how she left her dorm) for family to take possession of once she was no longer around.

the second wreck did (IMO) change plans.

But with added panic now set in (that police were looking for her) I am guessing that her instincts would've been to accelerate her plans, not regroup and re-make new plans.

That is why I believe it is telling that Maura left the scene of her car accident (not with her valuables or clothes) but with just a backpack and alcohol.

If you are to believe the wacky (Maura was meeting someone theory) why in the world would Maura then not grab her personal belongings-- clothes/valuables) when her "Traveling in tandem friend" picked her up?

All logical - still, I'm not 100% convinced.... there is the possibility she accepted a ride, or was hit (perhaps on purpose) by a vehicle passing by and became the victim of foul play...

Where I'm puzzled is with her shoes - they weren't meant for hiking... did she have hiking boots with her? Going with the just the thin (what were they) shoes - seems like she did not plan to go far..

Also, I always go back to my question about a flashlight...

 

[Nugget]

I'm happy to see so much activity and conversation after all this time. Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who still cares so much.