NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4

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I wonder how her brother can be absolutely certain that she had no cavities? Her teeth are beautiful in the photos, but that doesn't necessarily mean she had no fillings-I really wish there was an x-ray or something from her dentist. Or as you said, Rose, an x-ray from an earlier injury. It's too bad LE didn't have her parents at least obtain the dental records back in 1975. I'm sure they'd have been available then-I can't imagine, with those beautiful teeth, that she had never been to the dentist. I was hoping that ASWDH would go through his parents' documents to see if there was anything in there that might help-since he posted the new photos, it looks like he's started to do that, so I'm hoping he'll find something else that could help identify her if she's found.

Do we know for a fact that LE does not have her dental records? Or are we guessing -- either because they're not posted or because it hasn't been addressed? Maybe we can conclude from her brother's confidence in this fact that he did obtain them at some point, or that it's a piece of the story about Sylvia that his mother often repeated? I don't think LE (or JL) would want to use unverified information about her teeth to potentially ID her remains, if they were found, or to eliminate UID remains. Sorry if I am missing something really obvious about this ...
 
I wonder how her brother can be absolutely certain that she had no cavities? Her teeth are beautiful in the photos, but that doesn't necessarily mean she had no fillings-I really wish there was an x-ray or something from her dentist. Or as you said, Rose, an x-ray from an earlier injury. It's too bad LE didn't have her parents at least obtain the dental records back in 1975. I'm sure they'd have been available then-I can't imagine, with those beautiful teeth, that she had never been to the dentist. I was hoping that ASWDH would go through his parents' documents to see if there was anything in there that might help-since he posted the new photos, it looks like he's started to do that, so I'm hoping he'll find something else that could help identify her if she's found.

Do we know for a fact that LE does not have her dental records? Or are we guessing -- either because they're not posted or because it hasn't been addressed? Maybe we can conclude from her brother's confidence in this fact that he did obtain them at some point, or that it's a piece of the story about Sylvia that his mother often repeated? I don't think LE (or JL) would want to use unverified information about her teeth to potentially ID her remains, if they were found, or to eliminate UID remains. Sorry if I am missing something really obvious about this ...

Bbms: My childhood girlfriend has perfect teeth, two miniscule fillings in her 30's, in 58 years.

With perfect teeth, I doubt many x-rays, if any, would be in her records (they didn't x-ray back then like they do now), but (imo) SL took care of herself, saw a dentist regularly (no cavities = regular cleanings) and that information (her records, her charting) that states no cavities as her brother has said may well be in LE's possession. In looking at the UID's in general, I have not come across one with perfect teeth - so it is a very distinguishing feature if she died young.

I did wonder about braces and if she has all her wisdom teeth (there would be x-rays) because her teeth are so straight, and perfect... The wording on Namus says "currently" not available. (?) Does that indicate records can be submitted if a UID is found as a possible match? I agree, LE would go to DNA if they couldn't verify her dentals.
 
Do we know for a fact that LE does not have her dental records? Or are we guessing -- either because they're not posted or because it hasn't been addressed? Maybe we can conclude from her brother's confidence in this fact that he did obtain them at some point, or that it's a piece of the story about Sylvia that his mother often repeated? I don't think LE (or JL) would want to use unverified information about her teeth to potentially ID her remains, if they were found, or to eliminate UID remains. Sorry if I am missing something really obvious about this ...

You aren't missing anything obvious-I think it's me. I had the impression that where it says "dental/charting information is currently not available" on her NAMUS page means that LE doesn't have the records. That is only an assumption on my part. How are the authorities ruling Sylvia out in the UID cases-does anyone know? It seems like they ruled Sylvia out quickly in the most recent submission, which could mean that they have her dental records, but why not state that they're currently available? It may be that Sylvia's dental perfection is family folklore, which would come under category of unverified information, but what if that's all they have right now? In the 70's all of the records were in physical files, which would have to be purged at some point, and if the Lwowskis didn't request them until 2010, they very likely wouldn't exist anymore, I think. I wish we knew, because I would feel a lot more confident about the comparisons between Sylvia and the UIDs. In addition to the difficulties of dental comparisons, extracting DNA from remains can be challenging, too. Irondequoit Jane Doe is a case in point, as well as the remains of 2 young women in Pennsylvania who LE are currently trying to identify. There isn't much that is working in the favor of Sylvia's brother finding out what happened to her.
 
Bbms: My childhood girlfriend has perfect teeth, two miniscule fillings in her 30's, in 58 years.

With perfect teeth, I doubt many x-rays, if any, would be in her records (they didn't x-ray back then like they do now), but (imo) SL took care of herself, saw a dentist regularly (no cavities = regular cleanings) and that information (her records, her charting) that states no cavities as her brother has said may well be in LE's possession. In looking at the UID's in general, I have not come across one with perfect teeth - so it is a very distinguishing feature if she died young.

I did wonder about braces and if she has all her wisdom teeth (there would be x-rays) because her teeth are so straight, and perfect... The wording on Namus says "currently" not available. (?) Does that indicate records can be submitted if a UID is found as a possible match? I agree, LE would go to DNA if they couldn't verify her dentals.

I have beautiful, straight, white teeth too, and have lots of fillings in my molars-I never wore braces, either. My point is that people can only see my straight white teeth, and not my fillings. I hope her brother is right about the perfect teeth, if that's all LE has to use in their dental comparisons. It would be better if they had the dental records, too-I hope they have them
 
You aren't missing anything obvious-I think it's me. I had the impression that where it says "dental/charting information is currently not available" on her NAMUS page means that LE doesn't have the records. That is only an assumption on my part. How are the authorities ruling Sylvia out in the UID cases-does anyone know? It seems like they ruled Sylvia out quickly in the most recent submission, which could mean that they have her dental records, but why not state that they're currently available? It may be that Sylvia's dental perfection is family folklore, which would come under category of unverified information, but what if that's all they have right now? In the 70's all of the records were in physical files, which would have to be purged at some point, and if the Lwowskis didn't request them until 2010, they very likely wouldn't exist anymore, I think. I wish we knew, because I would feel a lot more confident about the comparisons between Sylvia and the UIDs. In addition to the difficulties of dental comparisons, extracting DNA from remains can be challenging, too. Irondequoit Jane Doe is a case in point, as well as the remains of 2 young women in Pennsylvania who LE are currently trying to identify. There isn't much that is working in the favor of Sylvia's brother finding out what happened to her.

Bbm: Jmoose - I totally agree - is LE operating off of a description, or has this been verified in some way?

Here is what I received. I only made mention of perfect teeth. So, it seems someone has informed LE that she had "no cavities".

From NY State Police: re LI UID.
“The UNI mentioned below has dentals in NAMUS, listing multiple cavities, a crown, a bridge, a root canal, etc.... I spoke w Dr. Levine, and he states it is definitely not Sylvia Lwowski if she had no cavities prior to her disappearance.”

From Namus: re: Irondequoit UID
-“The description of 'perfect teeth' would rule this UP out, the dental work is extensive. There is no DNA available for the UP”.
 
RTBM:

My childhood girlfriend has perfect teeth, two miniscule fillings in her 30's, in 58 years.

I did wonder about braces and if she has all her wisdom teeth (there would be x-rays) because her teeth are so straight, and perfect...

I knew people like that growing up. I have what dentists call "soft" teeth. My dentist says it's genetic luck (or the lack of it). If they started working on my teeth in the womb, I'd still have had problems. My daughter has my genes, but she also had fluoride: Perfect teeth in terms of cavities. But there were many years of braces and two surgeries on bony impacted front molars (teeth growing in sideways from front to back -- they operate to get to the tooth, then anchor a chain to it, which they tighten over time to gradually ease it up!). Perfect teeth all around, in terms of both strength and position, are rare, but as you say, possible.

They can tell so much about wisdom teeth from the x-rays because they are intact under the gums. But depending on her history with incoming teeth, her wisdom teeth may not have erupted yet. I was roughly her age when I had to have two of mine removed surgically.
 
You aren't missing anything obvious-I think it's me. I had the impression that where it says "dental/charting information is currently not available" on her NAMUS page means that LE doesn't have the records. That is only an assumption on my part. How are the authorities ruling Sylvia out in the UID cases-does anyone know? It seems like they ruled Sylvia out quickly in the most recent submission, which could mean that they have her dental records, but why not state that they're currently available? It may be that Sylvia's dental perfection is family folklore, which would come under category of unverified information, but what if that's all they have right now? In the 70's all of the records were in physical files, which would have to be purged at some point, and if the Lwowskis didn't request them until 2010, they very likely wouldn't exist anymore, I think. I wish we knew, because I would feel a lot more confident about the comparisons between Sylvia and the UIDs. In addition to the difficulties of dental comparisons, extracting DNA from remains can be challenging, too. Irondequoit Jane Doe is a case in point, as well as the remains of 2 young women in Pennsylvania who LE are currently trying to identify. There isn't much that is working in the favor of Sylvia's brother finding out what happened to her.

BBM1: Could it just mean that, due to the age of the records, they are not in a form that can be easily made electronic? Not sure. Who knows, it could be due to a scanning backlog. Maybe they'll turn up on the site tomorrow :)

BBM2: I recall teeth being involved in prior rule outs -- Rose, didn't Kim say on a prior UID that it couldn't be SL bc of the teeth? (ETA: Never mind, I just saw your post above.)
 
Bbm: Jmoose - I totally agree - is LE operating off of a description, or has this been verified in some way?

Here is what I received. I only made mention of perfect teeth. So, it seems someone has informed LE that she had "no cavities".

From NY State Police: re LI UID.
“The UNI mentioned below has dentals in NAMUS, listing multiple cavities, a crown, a bridge, a root canal, etc.... I spoke w Dr. Levine, and he states it is definitely not Sylvia Lwowski if she had no cavities prior to her disappearance.”

From Namus: re: Irondequoit UID
-“The description of 'perfect teeth' would rule this UP out, the dental work is extensive. There is no DNA available for the UP”.

BBMs: JMO, but that language ("if" and "description") suggests to me that they do not have records.
 
I have beautiful, straight, white teeth too, and have lots of fillings in my molars-I never wore braces, either. My point is that people can only see my straight white teeth, and not my fillings. I hope her brother is right about the perfect teeth, if that's all LE has to use in their dental comparisons. It would be better if they had the dental records, too-I hope they have them

Bbm: You all with straight perfect beautiful teeth are so lucky!!! -Are the fillings from childhood? - My point about my GF is she had no fillings until her 30's -so it is definitely possible for Sylvia at 22. (imo)

To me the larger issue, if her brother is following this convo, is we are like a team searching for Sylvia. Are we searching in the dark? Are there no more details? Can we have some of this info verified so we don't have to wonder about it, or why it is not verified one way or the other? Because, it is possible that the smallest detail could solve her disappearance...
 
BBM1: Could it just mean that, due to the age of the records, they are not in a form that can be easily made electronic? Not sure. Who knows, it could be due to a scanning backlog. Maybe they'll turn up on the site tomorrow :)

BBM2: I recall teeth being involved in prior rule outs -- Rose, didn't Kim say on a prior UID that it couldn't be SL bc of the teeth? (ETA: Never mind, I just saw your post above.)

I think that dentals were a factor in ruling Sylvia out as Irondequoit Jane Doe (but there were possibly some other factors as well). DNA wasn't one of them, because they weren't able to extract any. I do sometimes wonder if, in the absence of DNA, some identifications back in the "olden days" were wrong? What if they didn't happen to have dental records for a missing person, and they couldn't get the DNA from the UID? How sure could they be? I don't think Sylvia's body has been found yet (and they haven't found her alive anyplace), so my question is a hypothetical one.
 
Bbm: You all with straight perfect beautiful teeth are so lucky!!! -Are the fillings from childhood? - My point about my GF is she had no fillings until her 30's -so it is definitely possible for Sylvia at 22. (imo)

To me the larger issue, if her brother is following this convo, is we are like a team searching for Sylvia. Are we searching in the dark? Are there no more details? Can we have some of this info verified so we don't have to wonder about it, or why it is not verified one way or the other? Because, it is possible that the smallest detail could solve her disappearance...

Why don't you ask Kim? Maybe so far it hasn't been an issue bc the UIDs she's been compared to had far from perfect teeth. Or, maybe what comes to them from the family, and JL's confidence in it, is enough for them. I'd like to know.
 
Why don't you ask Kim? Maybe so far it hasn't been an issue bc the UIDs she's been compared to had far from perfect teeth. Or, maybe what comes to them from the family, and JL's confidence in it, is enough for them. I'd like to know.

Bbm: Done. We'll see what she says.
 
Bbm: You all with straight perfect beautiful teeth are so lucky!!! -Are the fillings from childhood? - My point about my GF is she had no fillings until her 30's -so it is definitely possible for Sylvia at 22. (imo)

To me the larger issue, if her brother is following this convo, is we are like a team searching for Sylvia. Are we searching in the dark? Are there no more details? Can we have some of this info verified so we don't have to wonder about it, or why it is not verified one way or the other? Because, it is possible that the smallest detail could solve her disappearance...

Most of my fillings are from childhood-I don't think we had fluoridated water, and brushed our teeth with Colgate toothpowder, which I don't believe had fluoride, either.
As far as verification of details, well, I sent ASWDH an email probably a month or so ago and got no reply, same with a PM I sent him recently-I'm probably on the "poop list" because of the video and my visceral reaction to it. We shouldn't have to wonder, I agree, but I don't have the answer.
 
IF an UIP is discovered with perhaps a small cavity or two (unfilled) or one or two small fillings, then I would imagine the process would go further. Bridgework, root canals, crooked, overlapping, large number of fillings, etc: would rule SL out as the UIP.

IMO during that time, x-rays would have been done even with a mouth with no fillings...once a year or perhaps, just the molars as she got older.
 
Most of my fillings are from childhood-I don't think we had fluoridated water, and brushed our teeth with Colgate toothpowder, which I don't believe had fluoride, either.
As far as verification of details, well, I sent ASWDH an email probably a month or so ago and got no reply, same with a PM I sent him recently-I'm probably on the "poop list" because of the video and my visceral reaction to it. We shouldn't have to wonder, I agree, but I don't have the answer.

I don't think this is the case, but JMO. I thought we were all against that video. After the first few posts about it, I couldn't even bring myself to deal with the topic.
 
Quote: Jmoose - Irondequoit Jane Doe is a case in point, as well as the remains of 2 young women in Pennsylvania who LE are currently trying to identify.

Do you have any more info on the two woman found as to where these young girls were found? Just curious.
 
Quote: Jmoose - Irondequoit Jane Doe is a case in point, as well as the remains of 2 young women in Pennsylvania who LE are currently trying to identify.

Do you have any more info on the two woman found as to where these young girls were found? Just curious.

Someplace kind of near Reading Pa-the authorities believe these are two sisters-in-law who managed to get mixed up with a couple of members of the Pagans motorcycle club. They are trying to obtain DNA from the bodies to compare with the women who they believe they are, but they're having trouble extracting and testing any with the current available technology
 
IF an UIP is discovered with perhaps a small cavity or two (unfilled) or one or two small fillings, then I would imagine the process would go further. Bridgework, root canals, crooked, overlapping, large number of fillings, etc: would rule SL out as the UIP.

IMO during that time, x-rays would have been done even with a mouth with no fillings...once a year or perhaps, just the molars as she got older.

Bbm: Yes, you are right - I do remember x-rays.

When I think about this, I cannot imagine that EL wouldn't obtain her records, though. Wouldn't she have been well aware of why she might need them? I am assuming this would have been a family dentist? A dentist would know why she might need SL's records, too. Also, when one of my dentists retired, I was given notice, so I could pick up, or have my records transferred. When another moved his practice, same thing...
 
Bbm: Yes, you are right - I do remember x-rays.

When I think about this, I cannot imagine that EL wouldn't obtain her records, though. Wouldn't she have been well aware of why she might need them? I am assuming this would have been a family dentist? A dentist would know why she might need SL's records, too. Also, when one of my dentists retired, I was given notice, so I could pick up, or have my records transferred. When another moved his practice, same thing...

Every time we bump into this kind of thing -- the BBM above, or that it doesn't seem like EL suspected the BF/F -- I wonder, did EL know something ... did she have a reason not to do these things? I do think she may have, even if she was wrong. How unjust would it be, for instance, if based on what was going on at home, SL had threatened to leave home before she disappeared -- but met foul play instead -- leaving EL thinking SL must have followed through, when instead she needed to be found?

Although, with my grandfather's disappearance, I'm told everyone wondered the same thing about my grandmother. When my parents got married (about 30 years after my GF's disappearance), they said my GM passed out when a red-headed man walked into the reception (my GF was a full-Irish redhead). Supposedly that finally convinced everyone that she didn't know what happened to him. Maybe it's just natural to suspect the wife/mother.
 
Every time we bump into this kind of thing -- the BBM above, or that it doesn't seem like EL suspected the BF/F -- I wonder, did EL know something ... did she have a reason not to do these things? I do think she may have, even if she was wrong. How unjust would it be, for instance, if based on what was going on at home, SL had threatened to leave home before she disappeared -- but met foul play instead -- leaving EL thinking SL must have followed through, when instead she needed to be found?

Although, with my grandfather's disappearance, I'm told everyone wondered the same thing about my grandmother. When my parents got married (about 30 years after my GF's disappearance), they said my GM passed out when a red-headed man walked into the reception (my GF was a full-Irish redhead). Supposedly that finally convinced everyone that she didn't know what happened to him. Maybe it's just natural to suspect the wife/mother.

Bbm: It's possible—and what kid hasn’t threatened to leave home? And, if a situation like this was happening-it would further explain “no publicity”. -Wonder if EL & SL always, sometimes spoke in German together? Did SL express her thoughts and anger about the pool party with mother, but not father? -Mother and daughter relationship feels strong/tight/connected to me. EL’s initial reaction and driving to Mall that night & next day with MMQC, and filing MP report promptly, suggests she was worried about something...

Your grandmother’s story shows how close to the surface the memory of your grandfather must have been decades later– what a fright she must have had – like seeing a ghost.
 
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