The Brother & the Bike Fight

[scandi]

Thanks Jennifer for your post. It's too bad that everything we have learned about her is heresay, especially since she interjected herself into the case with her public comments.

Sitting here thinking about that, are police records public? I wish someone could get ahold of dispatch calls for the MPD. I know in Portugal I found a copy of LE's dispatching the night Madeleine went missing. Just a thought as it would be the type of info that would be verified and useful in sleuthing the case. xox

 

[coastal]

Oh.. the East Fork of the Wildcat Creek. I wonder who started calling it "fork" considering there are two forks of the Wildcat Creek (East and West). Calling it "fork" doesn't really tell anyone where they are talking about. I know the locals don't call it that. Most of us just call it the creek behind the door plant. lol

LEs aren't putting out a lot of info.. so who knows who they have talked to and about what.

From what I have learned from a few people in McCleary, she and her husband (and their kids) are "nice quiet people who have never caused any problems". But I don't know them personally so I can't vouch for that.

I believe I read something about "where the three forks of the __ meet (or branch, or something). I'll try to find it again, and bring a link.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Any information on the brother from articles and videos can be posted here. I would like to learn as much about him as possible.

In my opinion, he hasn't been "cleared" in this. The police may not "suspect" him, but it doesn't mean he has been cleared when only his mother can vouch for his whereabouts during the time she went missing, the time he arrived home without Lindsey, and if he went out again later.

We have heard speculation that he was a troubled kid and we do know they had physical altercations. Could he have been so angry that he was getting back at his sister on her way home? Could he have known or have run into some older guys and asked them to take care of his problem? We just don't have any answers.

 

[coastal]

Oh.. the East Fork of the Wildcat Creek. I wonder who started calling it "fork" considering there are two forks of the Wildcat Creek (East and West). Calling it "fork" doesn't really tell anyone where they are talking about. I know the locals don't call it that. Most of us just call it the creek behind the door plant. lol

LEs aren't putting out a lot of info.. so who knows who they have talked to and about what.

From what I have learned from a few people in McCleary, she and her husband (and their kids) are "nice quiet people who have never caused any problems". But I don't know them personally so I can't vouch for that.

I believe I read something about "where the three forks of the __ meet (or branch, or something). I'll try to find it again, and bring a link.

ETA:
http://www.cityofmccleary.com/vertical/Sites/{6900A7D9-59CE-4612-823A-FA3E5F25F431}/uploads/{214968EF-BDC3-44B0-9F8F-2CE99BAFC056}.PDF

WILDCAT CREEK AQUIFER:
HYDROLOGY, REGULATORY ALTERNATIVE, AND RECOMMENDATIONS - FINAL REPORT

June 13, 2008

snip>>>

Part 3 – Recommendations ……………………………………………p. 21
Joint County – City Recommendations

A
1....
(a,b,c,d)
e. Actions:
(i,ii)...
iii. Measure streamflow below the confluence of the three branches of Wildcat Creek and measure water levels in several wells to learn more about groundwater movement and quantity...

(report continues...)

>>>snip

I suppose it doesn't matter, except to my curiousity, but since our favorite locals know of and refer to "two forks of the Wildcat Creek", these being the "East Fork" and the "West Fork", and the City/County Water/Planning experts refer to "the three branches of Wildcat Creek", does anyone happen to know the difference (hydrologically speaking) between forks and branches?

What matters is that McClearies really use neither of these to identify 'where in Wildcat Creek'. Yes?

Sorry. It's been a long day.

 

[JenniferO]

I believe I read something about "where the three forks of the __ meet (or branch, or something). I'll try to find it again, and bring a link.

ETA:
http://www.cityofmccleary.com/vertical/Sites/{6900A7D9-59CE-4612-823A-FA3E5F25F431}/uploads/{214968EF-BDC3-44B0-9F8F-2CE99BAFC056}.PDF

WILDCAT CREEK AQUIFER:
HYDROLOGY, REGULATORY ALTERNATIVE, AND RECOMMENDATIONS - FINAL REPORT

June 13, 2008

snip>>>

Part 3 – Recommendations ……………………………………………p. 21
Joint County – City Recommendations

A
1....
(a,b,c,d)
e. Actions:
(i,ii)...
iii. Measure streamflow below the confluence of the three branches of Wildcat Creek and measure water levels in several wells to learn more about groundwater movement and quantity...

(report continues...)

>>>snip

I suppose it doesn't matter, except to my curiousity, but since our favorite locals know of and refer to "two forks of the Wildcat Creek", these being the "East Fork" and the "West Fork", and the City/County Water/Planning experts refer to "the three branches of Wildcat Creek", does anyone happen to know the difference (hydrologically speaking) between forks and branches?

What matters is that McClearies really use neither of these to identify 'where in Wildcat Creek'. Yes?

Sorry. It's been a long day.

There is the Wildcat Creek in Elma and then it branches out a few miles outside of McCleary (into the West fork and the East fork). The West fork of Wildcat Creek runs north, the East fork of the Wildcat Creek runs east through McCleary.
Different "branches" of the same creek are called "forks" in some areas.

 

[coastal]

Thank you, JenniferO! Thank you, thank you, thank you! That reference got stuck itself in my head and would not go away, but now I can move it along to the 'intresting but not very' file I keep i there.

Where else do kids swim, besides private pools and 'the creek behind the door plant'? Again, thank you very much!

 

[JenniferO]

Coastal, I believe that is everything that is available for the kids in McCleary unless their parents take them somewhere else.

 

[coastal]

...Can anyone confirm that ML (myspace "Brighteyes") claimed that a number of times LB came to her home to call 911 because JB had done some things to her?

Good morning, Normcar21. I'll take this one!
I brought that comment, which I copied from the comments section of a King5.com article about Lindsey, here to WS. It was signed "MLachester". It sounded to me like he/she had what might be important information about Lindsey, and I didn't want it to disappear into cyberspace. This was before the mods gave Lindsey her own forum, and also before the 'don't discuss KK or her comments at another site' decision was made clear to me. Then, the mods advised that since we can not verify the ID of people who post comments in public forums (such as King.5's viewer comments), we should not treat such comments as fact, and should not bring them to WS for discussion. (Mods, please correct me if this is incorrect!)

In other words, we cannot confirm a call from LB to 911, made from the home of Mlachester, at all. Local McClearies have identified a real live M.LaC, complete with husband and child near LB's age, in McCleary.

Any other information resulting from the initial comment I copied here from King5.com is, therefore, considered "fruit" from that "poisioned tree", and we can't use it in our discussions.

Everything I have heard about (and from) Mlachester comes, then, from unconfirmed sources, except for what JenniferO has posted above (and which she herself qualified as heresay).

So, there is no 'there', there. At least, not here!
I'm sorry, Normcar21. I think it is interesting, too.

 

[scandi]

Hi, Last night after crawling into bed I had a thought about the bike and was going to get up and post it on this thread so I wouldn't forget it in the morning. Guess what? LOL

I think it was I read the police found the bike behind the city bldgs 2 days after she went missing. Does anyone have a link for that?

Also, JB was seen riding his bike not long after Lindsey went missing, and I'm wondering where that came from? The point is his bike evidently was fixed so it was rideable again.

What either of these things really mean to the case I don't know. Maybe nothing, but just clearing up odds and ends about the bike. xox

 

[Normcar21]

I have compiled snippits of newly posted information in thread #7 related to JB and the bike as well as anything that seemed to relate so it would be easier for me personally to have a summative overview of what has been discussed over the past few days (topic number is posted as well for a quick reference). I am not making any specific claims relative to what this information may or may not be pointing to. My goal was simply to have a handy point of reference for discussion. I have bracketed and initialed specific "name" references. I have also included some of my own questions and considerations relative to various post numbers. I believe like many of you have expressed in threads along the way that every angle needs to be combed through, no matter what the implications may be. Leaving improbable scenarious completely alone and hidden doesn't really help anything. Case in point, who would have DREAMED that little Sandra Cantu's [accused] murderer would be a sunday school teacher, a female, and a neighbor who had her own kids who actually played with Sandra. That case alone explains the veracity and "need" to check out all possibilities, imo.

My sincere and profound amazement at what you people have accomplished over the past 48 hours. WOW!



SNIPPITS, all from thread #7, posted over the last few days:

CYBERSWEPT (#381)
No SS. Shel did not want to talk about him. I pressed her a little, but she seemed to shy away when I asked her about the brother much. The
threat was an arson threat against a neighbor. She said they caught him there with matches in hand and confirmed that he has been in juvenile
detention. One other thing she mentioned is that [MB] still lets him ride his bike around town, just like he did before.


SS (#383)
How strange she would let him take off on his bike after his sister went missing! It is kind of disturbing to me. I wonder if his mother is afraid to tell him he can't do things or if he simply does what he wants to do and is allowed? He does sound like a troubled boy. Arson is nothing to take lightly. I do hope LE was very intense with him when he was questioned since it appears he probably knows how to "work the system" by now.

DISTRACTED (#406)
Evidently, the bike was not fully operational. Lindsey was pushing it around because it was broken. That's what the fight was about that night. She was tired of pushing it and wanted her brother to take over or take it home and they began arguing about it so she just left it behind the Shell station and planned to pick it up on the way back home.

CYBERSWEPT (401)
Shel told me that what she heard was the sweatshirt jacket was found out in the open near where the flipflop was found. The flipflop was found in some brush behind the shell station, which led them to believe she tried to run, then hide in the brush, leaving the flipflop behind. She said they only found one though. This stuff was found early on. Either that night or the next morning.

SCANDI (436)
Now I'm thinking that I read that the witness who saw Lindsey lived on 6th and Simpson. That is UNCONFIRMED. Maybe she took a left on 6th instead of a right and walked down Simpson, across 3rd and back behind the station to get the bike she had maybe parked by the bridge. That would be a good hiding place to leave it and not worry about someone stealing it. Just sayin'

YOSANDE (455)
The park and ride is on the same street she lives on, and if her shirt, and shoe were found almost within eyeshot of her home, if I were 10 or 11, the only reason I wouldn't be screaming as I was running, if someone was chasing me, and/or grabbing me, is if home was not a refuge, therefore, her brother, mother, or anyone else living in the home, would be suspect to me especially if her mother didn't work evenings and she had every reason to believe her mom was home. Imo, she was too close to home to decide to hide instead of run if her shirt and shoe was found in that area.

JENNIFERO (460)
I don't think Lindsey made it to the park, park and ride or even on her street. If someone was chasing her behind the Shell.. why would she go towards the park instead of her house? If she was in the park why would she run in the opposite direction towards the Shell instead of her house?

SS (462)
As far as the bike goes...it is a curious story. I can see perhaps the chain breaking, but not pushing it all over town like that either. Since the fight was supposed to have happened behind the station...it was so close to the house and she was still pushing it? Why didn't she just leave it at home when she was there to shower and change? Why take the bike and push it to the station? Or if it was left it at the station on her way to KK's house, why did the brother just leave it? Her mother said the brother went back out that night searching...did she mention if he was walking or on his bike? There are a lot of questions concerning the brother and the bike fight. I don't trust the brother. Is it just me being suspicious or did anyone else find his little one line speech followed up with "Amen" at the vigil a bit odd?

AMANDAREAKONWITH (467)
Where would a 13 yr old hide a body so well that over 3 weeks later, still no sign? I don't think the brother is even near the radar, let alone on it.

NOTMYKIDS (469)
Where would a normal 13 year old hide a body? Who knows...one would assume they wouldn't. Where would a 13 year old who has been in juvie and supposedly shows the arson part of the homicidal triad hide a body? Lord only knows.

SS(471)
He was my first thought, too. The more I learn about him...the more I have to wonder if my first instincts weren't correct. As far as where he would hide a body? Being in Juvy, a boy can make some very undesirable friendships. Maybe he wasn't alone when she returned for the walk home. He knew if she left the bike behind the Shell station that she would return to pick it up after their huge fight. He also knew basically what time she would be coming home and she may be alone. He could have waited with friends and ambushed her easily.


QUESTIONS AND CONSIDERATIONS:

SS (#383) - it certainly seems that JB has a great degree of independence, for whatever reasons.

DISTRACTED (#406) - could it be that the tires simply needed air? That would require a simple fix. Is there a tire pump "behind" the Shell station? That would possibly be reason for activity behind the Shell station. Could the fight have been who gets to ride the bike now that the tire was pumped up, resulting in nobody taking the bike at that time out of frustration and anger. In any event, with that sort of scenario JB would be almost assured that LB would be returning to pick up the "fixed" bike.

CYBERSWEPT (401) - could fighting over this "repaired" bike tire be something that would cause 2 siblings extremely angry with one another to leave a scenario behind like that? Again, it would be nice to know if a tire pump exists behind this service station as I know that many service stations in my area have the air pumps around back.

SCANDI (436) - is it credible that she walked directly down Maple, crossed it to the service station, then went around back of the station to see if the bike was still where the two siblings left it (by the looks of camera positions she would not have been picked up by crossing maple and going directly behind the south end of the station to the back, perhaps near the treed area...location of a tire pump?)


YOSANDE (455) - you make an incredibly interesting statement here, imo: "...the only reason I wouldn't be screaming as I was running, if someone was chasing me, and/or grabbing me, is if home was not a refuge..."

JENNIFERO (460) - interesting statement as well: "...why would she go towards the park instead of her house? If she was in the park why would she run in the opposite direction..." (in light especially of YOSANDE'S statement above)

SS (462) - I agree, do you think that a possible flat tire and quick tire pump fix might lend some light? As well, could you share with me this little one line speech followed up with "Amen" at the vigil, thanks.

NOTMYKIDS (469) - I can appreciate your response to post #467 simply because "if" this information is accurate then JB seems to be tried and tested in the area of deception and negative activity. I also agree with SS's comments related to the same potential activity.


SS, thanks for creating this thread and if you see anything wrong with either content or format above please let me know what you would like changed or tell me to delete. This goes for all MODS as well.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Copied from the General Discussion Thread:

Hey I got some additional info from KK on the bike situation involving the brother that some of you have been asking about.

The bike that the kids were fighting over was actually not ride-able. It did not have a chain on it so Lindsey had actually been pushing herself along on the bike and then decided she no longer wanted to so she dropped it at the Shell station off to the side of the gas pumps closest to the police station. The argument actually stemmed over who was going to take it home her or Josh. Needless to say neither wanted to - hence the fight.

So who won?

It was my understanding that the bike was still at the Shell station 2 or 3 days after Lindsey went missing.

I wonder though if it would have altered her route enough to go around the north side of the Shell Station vs the south side which would have been her normal path? I also wonder if the bike was in line of sight of the camera there? If it was and she was not in the video from the pump camera, at least we could eliminate the bike as being an object of deviation from her normal walk home.

And see...to me this makes absolutely no sense. Her brother is an avid bike rider according to his mother. Why would he leave his bike by the Shell station so he cannot ride it to "go look for Lindsey"? It is obviously fixed now so I am curious to know when he really got back and who fixed it. If the chain was simply falling off or if it broke entirely is another question.

Why would Lindsey push a broken bike around town? Why not drop it immediately where it broke or take it home since it was only half a block? When and why did she leave it at the station?

So you are saying she was at KK's house earlier that day? The bike never made it to KK's for the last trip as the fight happened behind the Shell station where it evidently was left by both of them.

I've always assumed, and merely my assumption, that Lindsey had taken the bike and it broke and the brother was upset with her about it. I figure it was broken enough that once Lindsey went missing, the brother didn't care since he knew it needed repairs in order to ride it to look for her. MOO

I don't know.. I grew up in a poor family. We had limited resources when it came to entertaining ourselves. My brothers and I used to push each other around on our broken bikes, even wheel barrows when times were really tough.

One year we used an old wagon with the axles removed as a sled in the snow.

ETA: I am in no way saying that Lindseys family is poor. I know nothing about their finances. I was just saying that when a kid is bored they will find a way to entertain themselves. Pushing around a broken bike is really not that odd when you have nothing else to do. Who knows if it broke while L was on it, or if it had broken months before. The fact is.. the bike (for whatever reason) was left at the Shell. For how long? No one really knows.

I had a son who rode a broken bike because I don't think he even realized it was broken! I gave all the mechanical ability genes to his older brother! :crazy:

I don't know SS. I was just trying to relate one possibility of why she was on a broken bike at all. Also I am not suggesting a timeline or when during the day that might have taken place.

Any of the above scenarios related to the bike are possible, clearly the bike may have inspired some really nasty feelings between LB and JB, the exact method perhaps isn't as important as the negative sibling rivalry that resulted.

Which is why I can't clear the brother in this yet...

I'd love to be able to clear him completely, but I continue to be nagged by the "juvie" stuff. I have had experience with kids who have behavior problems, I worked with one individual, a teen, who one day could be so polite, in control, and helpful, then the next day he was the complete opposite, everything setting him off, even the slightest things. On those days he could be quite physical with peers, and the next day he'd be apologizing profusely.

I understand. I guess kids do things to entertain themselves that we as adults would never consider. I recall turning the bike upside down and spinning the tires for a long time for no apparent reason. LOL

The story is that they argued over who would take the bike home on the way to her friend's house. J did not want to push it back and she didn't want to push to her friend's and back home so they left it behind the Shell station. Her mother reports that the bike was not retrieved for 2-3 days.

So brother went without his bike for 2-3 days and just left it sitting there? Why? If he knew where it was...why? Hmmm...I guess that means he was on foot later that night and the following days he was out searching for Lindsey and she couldn't keep him home.

I think I will go check into what she said exactly about him searching etc.

Could there be two bikes? One that the brother rode around town when he was searching and there was a totally different, broken bike that they argued over and left behind the shell station?

 

[SeriouslySearching]

There could be two bikes. If so...did Lindsey not have one?

 

[Kimster]

There could be two bikes. If so...did Lindsey not have one?

ANOTHER question I have! We'll have to get a list of questions together to ask next time someone runs into KK!

 

[DogMom2JoeAndWillie]

Maybe he was more interested in bikes than she was.....so he had an old one and got a newer, better one or something....and she decided to use the old one when he wasn't in a very sharing mood (you know how kids will be kids)?
I can have like, fifteen chew toys in the middle of the living room floor and 100% of the time BOTH dogs are going to want the SAME EXACT one....I guess they just want to argue over something....haven't totally figured out doggie psychology, yet...but give me time...

 

[christee]

At the risk of getting slapped :slap: I have a question and if it's been asked/answered then just carry on but leave me a link-something! How much time passed between the sibling fight and when the brother was next seen or accounted for?
Don't mean to cast suspicion on him but, well...
As for his ability to know a place to leave a body I'd say with all his biking about town he knew of many places that may have been hard to get to except on bike or foot.

 

[Kimster]

At the risk of getting slapped :slap: I have a question and if it's been asked/answered then just carry on but leave me a link-something! How much time passed between the sibling fight and when the brother was next seen or accounted for?
Don't mean to cast suspicion on him but, well...
As for his ability to know a place to leave a body I'd say with all his biking about town he knew of many places that may have been hard to get to except on bike or foot.

Lindsey and her friend left the brother after the fight and Lindsey went to her friend's house. She then left her friend's house and walked home alone, where she was seen at some point by another McCleary resident. I'm not sure of the times - we need a timeline thread!!!

 

[christee]

Lindsey and her friend left the brother after the fight and Lindsey went to her friend's house. She then left her friend's house and walked home alone, where she was seen at some point by another McCleary resident. I'm not sure of the times - we need a timeline thread!!!

Thx Kimster-ITA!

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Maybe he was more interested in bikes than she was.....so he had an old one and got a newer, better one or something....and she decided to use the old one when he wasn't in a very sharing mood (you know how kids will be kids)?
I can have like, fifteen chew toys in the middle of the living room floor and 100% of the time BOTH dogs are going to want the SAME EXACT one....I guess they just want to argue over something....haven't totally figured out doggie psychology, yet...but give me time...

Off Topic: My dog found out if he hid his favorite toys, I would go buy him new toys. He has gained quite a stockpile! I dropped my remote under my bed and while fishing it out...I noticed his cache of hidden toys! He was busted! Which reminds me, his OCD is emerging...he has started laying his toys end to end in a neat straight line across the living room. WTH? Get your degree in doggie psychology fast! My dog needs serious therapy.

On Topic: For a girl that willingly pushed a bike without a chain all over town that day, I find it difficult to believe she didn't want one of her own. If she comes home, I am buying Lindsey a shiny new bike with a siren and a mace canister (forget the bells n whistles). We can add a license plate that says, Protected By WS.

 

[jvk]

Can some one site the source of the bike being behind station for 2-3 days? was it KK? (i missed this a while ago)

It just seems odd like why the hell would LE not be picking that up on day 1

I totally agree with you, JVK. (This discussion should probably move over to the Bike thread tho.)

The message you have entered is too short.

 

[DotsEyes]

Did the flip flop and sweatshirt hoodie found behind the Shell station belong to Lindsey?

Does anyone know what was wrong with the bike? Maybe they were going to pump air in the tires at the Shell Station?