SherlockJr
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Annasmom, do you know exactly when GW traveled to his parents home in Wisconsin to cut all ties with them?
Theory #2: Family Abduction by George Waters with George Brody, Part 2
- Thread starter Dr. Doogie
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I'm sorry...I really don't. I didn't even know where he was living at that time.
Dr. Doogie
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I am not sure that it occured face-to-face. The BFH contains letters that seemed to sever ties. This occured in 1970-71.
SherlockJr
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Oh, I heard that he personally went to his parents door and made a scene with them. The reason I was trying to pinpoint a timeframe for his trip was to hopefully rule out the TWA charges on his credit card being his trip to WI.
Cubby
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From the book, I had the impression GW's visit to Wisconsin occured before Anna went missing. Sometime about the time GW was asking his parents to pay his child support and Alimony.
I've wondered if GW might have gone back to where he studied in Greece. I know Annasmom stayed in contact with the people she new from the school, but I have always wondered if GW stayed in contact with anyone from back there.... Though, with him cutting off ties with so many it's probably a long shot that he would have.
I've wondered if GW might have gone back to where he studied in Greece. I know Annasmom stayed in contact with the people she new from the school, but I have always wondered if GW stayed in contact with anyone from back there.... Though, with him cutting off ties with so many it's probably a long shot that he would have.
SherlockJr
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Originally Posted by laini 
I found a George L. Brody listed in the online index of 'Cemetary Inscriptions Of Stark County, Ohio' Volume 4 - 1982. I wonder if Brody was from Ohio and had arranged for his ashes to be buried there, or if this is not even our Brody. I can find no further information. I don't know if the 1982 is referring to when the index was published or the date the cemetary inscription was made.
I found a George L. Brody listed in the online index of 'Cemetary Inscriptions Of Stark County, Ohio' Volume 4 - 1982. I wonder if Brody was from Ohio and had arranged for his ashes to be buried there, or if this is not even our Brody. I can find no further information. I don't know if the 1982 is referring to when the index was published or the date the cemetary inscription was made.
Dr. Doogie
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I found a website that describes and shows pictures of the Abby Hotel where Brody and Waters lived.
http://www.travelpost.com/hotels/Abby_Hotel/h70458
Though it has been remodeled, it still looks pretty shabby. Especially note the size of the rooms.
(And for a good laugh, the "streetview" on Google maps has a nice picture of a bum passed out in front of the building.)
http://www.travelpost.com/hotels/Abby_Hotel/h70458
Though it has been remodeled, it still looks pretty shabby. Especially note the size of the rooms.
(And for a good laugh, the "streetview" on Google maps has a nice picture of a bum passed out in front of the building.)
Cubby
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I've thought about this a few times recently and while it came to mind thought I would post.
Annasmom, Do you recall if GB had an opinion on divorce, remarriage, a child being raised by a man other than the childs biological father? I know he had some pretty odd opinions/beliefs and with poor GW hanging on GB's word I can easily see how GB could have convinced GW Anna might be better off.... with such an such a scenario.
With as much research as we have done with adoptee's it has crossed my mind perhaps Anna does not believe she is adopted but was raised by her fathers family, or her godfathers family as GB liked to call himself her 'godfather without portfolio'. I just wonder under what circumstances GB may have convinced GW- and that story was believable to Anna. Researching along those lines might be worth looking into. Do you have any thoughts on that avenue?
Thanks!
Cubby
Annasmom, Do you recall if GB had an opinion on divorce, remarriage, a child being raised by a man other than the childs biological father? I know he had some pretty odd opinions/beliefs and with poor GW hanging on GB's word I can easily see how GB could have convinced GW Anna might be better off.... with such an such a scenario.
With as much research as we have done with adoptee's it has crossed my mind perhaps Anna does not believe she is adopted but was raised by her fathers family, or her godfathers family as GB liked to call himself her 'godfather without portfolio'. I just wonder under what circumstances GB may have convinced GW- and that story was believable to Anna. Researching along those lines might be worth looking into. Do you have any thoughts on that avenue?
Thanks!
Cubby
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I look at Motive, Means and Opportunity; to see if the person had these things to commit the crime.
With these two, Motive is easy, it wouldn't take much. Not wanting GW to pay child support is enough for GB. Not wanting to share any inheritance would be another thing for GB, but if he could sell her to a childless couple, well that is what I think was the motive, a lump sum of money. He could convince GW of any reason to get him to go alone with it, so I think motive is there.
Means for them would be having access to a car. They would need to be able to get her in the car without much fuss. GW being a doctor could have easily gotten chloroform so she could have been lured to the car, to see puppies or kittens and then put to sleep in a second to drive away. I have heard that this was a way of kidnapping in other cases of children. If one is driving, another would have to approach the child and trick them to coming up to the car, and then she could have been placed in the back seat with yet a third party. So I think they could have had the means to do this.
The opportunity had to have been there as she is gone. So they waited until the coast was clear, or she wondered close enough to the car and far enough away from the house. I am sure they sat for many days watching the routine of the household and when it was best to do this.
From what I am reading here, the two George's circle of friends and acquittance would have been very small. So I think and this is just my opinion that is where it started, with a workplace encounter. Since GB didn't work, it had to be a patient, friend, acquaintance, of GW who wanted a child. This person had to have money and had to know the adoption was shaky at best. I also think that this person was under the impression that Margaret was the mother, and maybe deceased and the father couldn't take care of her. Just another thought. Maybe that is why he took the picture with him on "vacation" to show someone her picture and say this was her mother. I also think that the "vacation" was a story they told Anna, that she was going on vacation with her dad. They had to get her to go without a fuss. I think that GB stayed behind and that is why GW was so obsessed with the insurance claims and making sure he had provisions to survive on his own in case of a delay or some thing happened with the plane. I could be way off but I am trying to see if this fits. Once you know where the connection is, you have a better chance of tracing what happened or who she was likely to have gone to. Sorry for such a long post.
With these two, Motive is easy, it wouldn't take much. Not wanting GW to pay child support is enough for GB. Not wanting to share any inheritance would be another thing for GB, but if he could sell her to a childless couple, well that is what I think was the motive, a lump sum of money. He could convince GW of any reason to get him to go alone with it, so I think motive is there.
Means for them would be having access to a car. They would need to be able to get her in the car without much fuss. GW being a doctor could have easily gotten chloroform so she could have been lured to the car, to see puppies or kittens and then put to sleep in a second to drive away. I have heard that this was a way of kidnapping in other cases of children. If one is driving, another would have to approach the child and trick them to coming up to the car, and then she could have been placed in the back seat with yet a third party. So I think they could have had the means to do this.
The opportunity had to have been there as she is gone. So they waited until the coast was clear, or she wondered close enough to the car and far enough away from the house. I am sure they sat for many days watching the routine of the household and when it was best to do this.
From what I am reading here, the two George's circle of friends and acquittance would have been very small. So I think and this is just my opinion that is where it started, with a workplace encounter. Since GB didn't work, it had to be a patient, friend, acquaintance, of GW who wanted a child. This person had to have money and had to know the adoption was shaky at best. I also think that this person was under the impression that Margaret was the mother, and maybe deceased and the father couldn't take care of her. Just another thought. Maybe that is why he took the picture with him on "vacation" to show someone her picture and say this was her mother. I also think that the "vacation" was a story they told Anna, that she was going on vacation with her dad. They had to get her to go without a fuss. I think that GB stayed behind and that is why GW was so obsessed with the insurance claims and making sure he had provisions to survive on his own in case of a delay or some thing happened with the plane. I could be way off but I am trying to see if this fits. Once you know where the connection is, you have a better chance of tracing what happened or who she was likely to have gone to. Sorry for such a long post.
Cubby
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Copying here from Odyssey's addition to the timeline for the two G's.
Do we have a date that the detective working Anna's case actually saw the two georges at the hotel, and which hotel was that? IIRC they were living at TWO seperate hotels at the time which was unknown in the immediate months following Anna's disappearance. While I think it is likely this is when GW was on 'vacation' I'd like to see if we can place him at the unknown hotel during the last 1-2 weeks of January or not. Likely not, but we should review this......
or... was this the time frame when they could not reside in a 'transient' hotel for more than 30 days so they went back and forth between each for 30 days? Trying to sort this out....
Do we have a date that the detective working Anna's case actually saw the two georges at the hotel, and which hotel was that? IIRC they were living at TWO seperate hotels at the time which was unknown in the immediate months following Anna's disappearance. While I think it is likely this is when GW was on 'vacation' I'd like to see if we can place him at the unknown hotel during the last 1-2 weeks of January or not. Likely not, but we should review this......
or... was this the time frame when they could not reside in a 'transient' hotel for more than 30 days so they went back and forth between each for 30 days? Trying to sort this out....
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Copying another of Odyssey's questions
Doogie, when you have a minute could you refresh exactly what happened when you made contact regarding the safe depost box? IIRC you contact the location where the box was held and were informed all papers were destroyed by the bank? I don't recall the bank name, and the lump sum of just under 17,000 was turned over to the state controllers office correct?
This money was not ever in an actual savings or checking account of any kind was it? To determine how GB received this money. Did GB ever collect on an insurance police of MK's? I'm trying to think if there is a way to determine if this was a lump sum payment from someone who would have illegally adopted Anna. I'm just not sure how to go about or if we could go about finding the paper trail or source of these funds in GB's safe deposit box. Any idea's?
Odyssey! thanks for the great work these past few days and weeks. I really appreciate your work, time and comments. :blowkiss:
Doogie, when you have a minute could you refresh exactly what happened when you made contact regarding the safe depost box? IIRC you contact the location where the box was held and were informed all papers were destroyed by the bank? I don't recall the bank name, and the lump sum of just under 17,000 was turned over to the state controllers office correct?
This money was not ever in an actual savings or checking account of any kind was it? To determine how GB received this money. Did GB ever collect on an insurance police of MK's? I'm trying to think if there is a way to determine if this was a lump sum payment from someone who would have illegally adopted Anna. I'm just not sure how to go about or if we could go about finding the paper trail or source of these funds in GB's safe deposit box. Any idea's?
Odyssey! thanks for the great work these past few days and weeks. I really appreciate your work, time and comments. :blowkiss:
Is there any way of finding out when GB actually obtained the safety deposit box. If it was just prior to or immediately after Anna's abduction it would be very interesting. Maybe LE could find out.
I hate to throw yet another theory into this already tangled web but after reading the new posts, I have started to wonder if GB was actually the mastermind (which either way, I'm sure he was) and perpetrator of Anna's abduction.
I hope I can explain my thinking properly as my brain is going ten to the dozen right now.
Anna was the last link to GW's former life and the only thing that kept a connection to Annasmom/family. From what I can recall, GW had pretty much burnt his bridges with his own family via the ranting, nasty letters he had sent them.
I haven't thought about this before until I saw both of those comments together, Anna lost and I'm glad the tot is dead, and then reading other people's ideas on what they might mean.
It is entirely possible that GW actually had nothing to do with Anna's abduction and GB arranged the whole thing (without GW's knowledge). GW was so brainwashed by that time that GB could have convinced him of anything eg; Anna drowned in the creek.
Anna lost = if someone can't be found, they are lost (or the earlier suggestion that she might be dead).
I'm glad the tot is dead = GB had convinced GW that Annasmom was a bad mother and Anna was better off dead (if she had drowned in the creek).
To me, GW calling Anna "the tot" shows emotion, if he didn't have any love or feelings for Anna he would probably be more likely to refer to her as "the kid" or "the brat" or something not so kindly/caring.
This could also explain why there was $1 left to Anna in the insurance policy. GB could have also convinced GW that he should include that to cover GB in the event that someone, "impersonating" Anna, came forward to claim on the policy.
Sorry if I have just opened up a whole other can of worms but I had to put it out there.
Hope it all makes sense.
I hope I can explain my thinking properly as my brain is going ten to the dozen right now.
Anna was the last link to GW's former life and the only thing that kept a connection to Annasmom/family. From what I can recall, GW had pretty much burnt his bridges with his own family via the ranting, nasty letters he had sent them.
I haven't thought about this before until I saw both of those comments together, Anna lost and I'm glad the tot is dead, and then reading other people's ideas on what they might mean.
It is entirely possible that GW actually had nothing to do with Anna's abduction and GB arranged the whole thing (without GW's knowledge). GW was so brainwashed by that time that GB could have convinced him of anything eg; Anna drowned in the creek.
Anna lost = if someone can't be found, they are lost (or the earlier suggestion that she might be dead).
I'm glad the tot is dead = GB had convinced GW that Annasmom was a bad mother and Anna was better off dead (if she had drowned in the creek).
To me, GW calling Anna "the tot" shows emotion, if he didn't have any love or feelings for Anna he would probably be more likely to refer to her as "the kid" or "the brat" or something not so kindly/caring.
This could also explain why there was $1 left to Anna in the insurance policy. GB could have also convinced GW that he should include that to cover GB in the event that someone, "impersonating" Anna, came forward to claim on the policy.
Sorry if I have just opened up a whole other can of worms but I had to put it out there.
Hope it all makes sense.
Cubby
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The thought isn't that far out there Ozzie. It has crossed my mind as well. However, I don't think GB could have done it without help due to his age. He could have master minded the whole thing, 'tricked' Waters in some way and after arriving with Anna to whomever she would be given to, known he could have convinced Waters to agree to leave Anna there. Especially since GB was well aware GW hung onto his every word.
We still have to go back to the two men seen by the visiting neighbor in the white panel truck/van who could have likely been GB and GW. IIRC, while there was a pc of paper indicating GW was working that day, he had more than one job, could have worked an early morning shift, had the afternoon off, and then worked again in the evening.
We still have to go back to the two men seen by the visiting neighbor in the white panel truck/van who could have likely been GB and GW. IIRC, while there was a pc of paper indicating GW was working that day, he had more than one job, could have worked an early morning shift, had the afternoon off, and then worked again in the evening.
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~ I agree, without a doubt somehow someway Brody had it in his mind to free Waters of any debt family or institutional. The slip an alibi? Interesting indeed this slip was in the BFH. Really makes me wonder what GW's was thinking keeping this one and only medical slip. Hey George?!
~ About the 2 men in the white panel truck/van, the visitor waving back to them is pretty insightful as well. What I would love to know is did they have hats on?? I think this alone would tell alot esp. if the older man had a fedora. Even if the visitor was 20 feet away, one could tell if they had hats on or not, he apparently could tell that one was younger and one man was an older fellow. Can we get in touch with this visitor and ask him to meditate about that moment and perhaps he could recall?
I think Sherlock has his contact info.
So, if GB was the 'Mastermind' in this, who was he close to otherthan Waters? Uhm. Mystery other man, or it was Waters with him in the vehicle. I agree and have stated myself that Brody couldn't have done this act alone, and if Waters was driving, Brody couldn't have supressed Anna by himself either... so, who?
Cubby
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This just occured to me but I wonder if mystery other man - if there was another mystery man- could have been a fellow associate living in one of the hotels the two lived in. I don't think Joe Ford ever noticed GB socializing with anyone outside of the waitresses he flirted with..... (and most likely annoyed).
I would love to find out the names of the restaurants the two G's frequented and post at that city-data forum so many from WS'rs use to see if we can find any former employees from those restaurants. Perhaps they have some memories of the two G's which would be insightful to our search.
Joe, if you see this, do you happen to recall the names of any restaurants, or addresses of those restaurants so we can find the names? The only name I recall is Zims.
I would love to find out the names of the restaurants the two G's frequented and post at that city-data forum so many from WS'rs use to see if we can find any former employees from those restaurants. Perhaps they have some memories of the two G's which would be insightful to our search.
Joe, if you see this, do you happen to recall the names of any restaurants, or addresses of those restaurants so we can find the names? The only name I recall is Zims.
Craig B., who has been questioned extensively, was on his way to the farm when he saw the van with two men in it. He had stopped to pat a horse (this would have been on the south side of Purisima Creek Road or the right-hand lane, driving east, away from the ocean because the other side of the road is too steep for horses to come down to the fence.) The probability is that the van was heading west. After this time, Craig said that Anna greeted him at the front door of the house. The schoolbus driver said that she did not notice any van or parked cars on her long route from Half Moon Bay, around Higgins Canyon Road and west on Purisima Creek Road. I don't think we can attach too much importance to this van. It is more likely that a vehicle followed the school bus out of sight, stopped high on Higgins and observed the farm, unseen, until Anna went outside.