TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #8

[DD Byrd]

From what I've read, Julie wasn't originally supposed to be there, and her mother gave her permission at the last second. Without cell phones, an abduction (or altercation) already planned (at the mall or elsewhere) would have her at the wrong place at the right time. Her presence was likely a surprise to the person/people who orchestrated the abduction/altercation...but now the wheels are in motion and they're at the point of no return. Julie was a witness and therefore collateral damage.

That scenario would also hold true if Rachel planned a stop (possibly unknown to Renee) to pop in and say hello, etc. elsewhere. Then, although unplanned, it hit the fan. Even if Julie was waiting in the car (like teens might make a little kid do), she was still in the wrong place and may have seen or heard something as well, sealing her fate. I'm thinking of carjacking cases where the thief doesn't realize there is a child in the car (not that he/she would care), but it does change the dynamic and escalates somewhat mindlessly - especially for a non-career criminal, there would be some adrenaline-fueled decisions. If opinions disagreed (with what to do w/ Julie or otherwise) but everyone involved feared accountability, that would explains decades of secrets, twists, and silence.

All things considered, I think someone/s either knew were they were going to mall, were at the mall, or had been at the mall and had the planned or sudden insight to put the car there. I don't know if there were receipts along with the wrapped presents, but whoever had the car could probably surmise that's where they'd been.

 

[Brightchaser47]

I don't know but I think I was going on a few articles such as this one. It refers to him as a reserve in this one so maybe that's all he ever was.

That's possible. Reserves aren't listed on the roster.

Of course it may not even be the same person.

View attachment 492064

That is a rather common name, but I don't know how many are in LE- related jobs.

 

[Brightchaser47]

All things considered, I think someone/s either knew were they were going to mall, were at the mall, or had been at the mall and had the planned or sudden insight to put the car there.

RSBM
Agree

I don't know if there were receipts along with the wrapped presents, but whoever had the car could probably surmise that's where they'd been.

There was only  one wrapped gift, and it was brought with them by Renee. There was absolutely nothing about the car as it was found to suggest or prove the girls had done any shopping at the mall.
Possibly, they intended to shop, and plans changed (or were changed by someone else), or they were there for another reason. jmo

 

[Brightchaser47]

We know about the former police officer Hutchins at Sears

RSBM
Who's incidentally back on my radar as someone who knew something....

and then there was the head of security at JC Penny that I also believe was an FW police officer at one time.

View attachment 492064

The shoplifting article you posted was dated Aug 1974. This article's dated June 1978. So if it was the same John Tyree, he either left his position at JC Penney to join FWPD as reserve, or was doing both. Reserve officers were/are volunteers-- you get police training and experience, but no pay/benefits. Interesting...

 

[DD Byrd]

Do we know if Rachel was a regular, habitual mall goer...like every Saturday morning, etc.? That would lean towards someone (including a mall employee) knew she'd likely be there, or knew her when they saw her. If not, it would be brazen to abduct three people in broad daylight unless there was a gun in one of their ribs to keep all 3 quiet. Or they went willingly in a "we'll be right back" kind of way. Mall security makes sense because they wouldn't stand out that much, and the girls would likely go with them. I think a police unit might draw more attention.

I always land on what is so important to decide everyone is killed. And especially Julie who may not have even known those involved, what did she witness? A complete stranger (to her, but known to Rachel and/or Renee) might let her go, tie her up and leave her somewhere. To kill her, she either knew the killer/s on her own, or they had some identifier with a strong enough breadcrumb (ie. "he was wearing a mall cop uniform, had an eye patch, spoke with French accent, etc.") and she had to be silenced. Or, Rachel or Julie said his/her name during whatever happened and Julie heard it. That might be enough. Or you had someone who had killed before and it wasn't a big deal.

But why send a note at all? They could've just disappeared with no leads. Leave the car at the mall, in the woods, burned or sunk. Did they want the cavalry to all head out of town? Or, was the note already drafted, even by Rachel herself and was used to stage it adding NOT her signature. Have folks think they're coming back to bide time, which doesn't jibe since Julie's parents would be tripping. And why bide time unless the bodies weren't in their final resting place yet. Meanwhile, there's the possibility that "we" just had to get away was about Rachel and TT and was for some plan in the future? Who would not like if if Rachel and TT had gone, why would they "catch "it"?

On top of the mystery, unless I've missed it, all the key players seem to be in an insular world. Were there rumors or comments from friends or schoolmates, vigils besides the parents, community searches? If everyone outside of the families was mum, there's also some fear going on.

 

[Brightchaser47]

All things considered, I think someone/s either knew were they were going to mall, were at the mall, or had been at the mall and had the planned or sudden insight to put the car there.

As Renee's mother was calling the stores,  security would've known the girls were there, had been there, or were thought/expected to be there.  
Could FWPD have dragged their heels responding because they were told to? Or was mall security responsible for contacting FWPD and  they stalled? Do we know at what point FWPD was actually notified and by whom?

 

[Brightchaser47]

Do we know if Rachel was a regular, habitual mall goer...like every Saturday morning, etc.? That would lean towards someone (including a mall employee) knew she'd likely be there, or knew her when they saw her.

RSBM
I tend to think one or more members of mall security and FWPD knew these kids through associations outside the mall. Fort Worth was not a huge town back then, and these girls lived fairly close to Seminary South.

Or they went willingly in a "we'll be right back" kind of way. Mall security makes sense because they wouldn't stand out that much, and the girls would likely go with them.

Yep. Especially if the girls were found in the basement or taken there, a lot could happen without arousing suspicion.

Or you had someone who had killed before and it wasn't a big deal.

There aren't many cases from Fort Worth at that time that would suggest whoever was responsible for this had killed before (where bodies are unaccounted for).

But why send a note at all? They could've just disappeared with no leads. Leave the car at the mall, in the woods, burned or sunk. Did they want the cavalry to all head out of town? Or, was the note already drafted, even by Rachel herself

According to family members, it wasn't Rachel's handwriting.

And why bide time unless the bodies weren't in their final resting place yet.

Possibly. Or someone was waiting for concrete to set up or grass to start growing...jmo

 

[DD Byrd]

If family thought it wasn't Rachel's writing, then who'd write it and try to pull it off in the first place? Likely someone either clueless to the seriousness of what was happening or desperate for time. Leaving anything tangible tips the acceptable risk meter in my mind, esp if Rachel's "el" was obviously mangled. But I'd be interested to know if the family thought it was an attempt to look like Rachel's writing or flat-out different. If they tried, I'd say it was someone closer to her than passing acquaintance. All to say it'd would still be infinitely easier to forever wonder where they'd gone, not stir up the situation and direct a spotlight on it. That note is 'proof' someone who knew her is the reason (or knows the reason) she is gone. And I wonder if the original intent was to bring the girls back. Maybe a ransom gone wrong before it was actually in motion...or a week in a basement to teach (likely) Rachel a lesson and things went sideways with Renee and Julie being there. So instead of "trying again" at a later time, something made THAT moment go time. Why?

Why is Renee's mother having the stores paged? Renee was excited for the party yes, but teenagers in malls can get sidetracked, and if she's that worked up about it, perhaps she knew something we don't. It sounds like she didn't even know Julie was there, so if she's concerned, it has something to do with Rachel. Or where else Rachel might go.

I have no context of Fort Worth in the 70s. Is a 19 year high school student being married normal? Was everyone really cool with Tommy having been with Rachel's sister? I've read elsewhere these families were "rough n tumble." Which sounds crude, but could there be shady business deals, drugs or other non-Beaver Cleaver things going on?

What motive could there be for this to unfold like it did...people are killed for $5, but 3 kids is a LOT for FWPD to keep quiet on. But I certainly think a delay by mall security could play into it.

 

[Brightchaser47]

If family thought it wasn't Rachel's writing, then who'd write it and try to pull it off in the first place?

RSBM
Supposedly, the family initially said it  was her writing, then later back-tracked. Personally, I've always struggled with the fact that they couldn't make up their minds. js

Likely someone either clueless to the seriousness of what was happening or desperate for time.

Or a combination of the two--which would apply to the same family who gave LE the letter, imo.

Leaving anything tangible tips the acceptable risk meter in my mind, esp if Rachel's "el" was obviously mangled.

Agreed

But I'd be interested to know if the family thought it was an attempt to look like Rachel's writing or flat-out different. If they tried, I'd say it was someone closer to her than passing acquaintance.

Agreed

All to say it'd would still be infinitely easier to forever wonder where they'd gone, not stir up the situation and direct a spotlight on it.

Desperate people make mistakes.

That note is 'proof' someone who knew her is the reason (or knows the reason) she is gone. And I wonder if the original intent was to bring the girls back. Maybe a ransom gone wrong before it was actually in motion...or a week in a basement to teach (likely) Rachel a lesson and things went sideways with Renee and Julie being there. So instead of "trying again" at a later time, something made THAT moment go time. Why?

Good points

Why is Renee's mother having the stores paged? Renee was excited for the party yes, but teenagers in malls can get sidetracked, and if she's that worked up about it, perhaps she knew something we don't. It sounds like she didn't even know Julie was there, so if she's concerned, it has something to do with Rachel. Or where else Rachel might go.

Very possible. But this was also not long after Carla Walker was abducted/raped/murdered in that same town.

I have no context of Fort Worth in the 70s. Is a 19 year high school student being married normal?

Rachel was actually married at 16, and it wasn't unheard of.

Was everyone really cool with Tommy having been with Rachel's sister?

I don't think it was a big deal.

I've read elsewhere these families were "rough n tumble." Which sounds crude, but could there be shady business deals, drugs or other non-Beaver Cleaver things going on?

Absolutely

What motive could there be for this to unfold like it did...people are killed for $5, but 3 kids is a LOT for FWPD to keep quiet on.

It depends on who was involved, how and why.

 

[T rex]

RSBM
Who's incidentally back on my radar as someone who knew something....



The shoplifting article you posted was dated Aug 1974. This article's dated June 1978. So if it was the same John Tyree, he either left his position at JC Penney to join FWPD as reserve, or was doing both. Reserve officers were/are volunteers-- you get police training and experience, but no pay/benefits. Interesting...

I don't guess it should be a surprise that a head of security has law enforcement background because most of them do but the things that Hutchins said and the history of some of the others just makes me want to know more about them.

 

[Brightchaser47]

What motive could there be for this to unfold like it did...people are killed for $5, but 3 kids is a LOT for FWPD to keep quiet on.

RSBM
I don't have an easy answer for this, but I'll throw a few thoughts out there.
* No matter which theory you subscribe to in this case, at the heart of it is the fact that  someone (or a group of someones) didn't/doesn't want to go to prison-- that in itself can be a powerful motive for secrecy, imo.
* If there were indeed witnesses to the trio being abducted/sold or killed, and  any LE were involved in it in any way, and said witnesses felt/knew that reporting it would bring  them trouble (or expose illicit activity on their part), who in their right mind is going to talk?
* Absolutely no offense intended, but the girls' families were not socially or financially well-connected. Those who were sincerely trying to get answers couldn't 'grease palms', or call in favors if you will, to get to the bottom of this, and imo, FWPD etc knew that.
* At the end of the day, imo, there were people in this case who simply valued their careers, social status, and freedom more than the lives of three girls. Period. JMO

 

[Brightchaser47]

FWIW, I feel that JS (P.I. #1) figured out at some point what happened and who was responsible, but was unable or unwilling to pursue it, and DJ (P.I.#2) almost  had to know, and likewise was unable or unwilling to pursue it. JMO

 

[Brightchaser47]

Members of FWPD who did earnestly investigate this case stated they couldn't get the girls "off the parking lot". Is it possible the Trio  were at Seminary South that day (for whatever reason) and never left mall property? Most of the businesses (if not the entire mall) would've closed for a couple days between Christmas and New Year's. The car was left on the lot and watched that night (by Renee's father and a buddy, not LE) and picked up the next day by Rachel's husband. So attention was on the  car through the night. Then the very next day, the "runaway letter" appears (fwiw, most lower-ranking FWPD did not believe the girls ran away). The mall basement was not searched (that I know of). There are parts of that property I doubt were  ever searched.
Just a thought.

 

[DD Byrd]

I'm going to have to refresh on the P.I.s, it's been a lot of years since I reread everything. I think the "off the parking lot" is telling. That was said either to deflect away from some other location, or it's true. I lean towards true, unless whoever released that statement could be involved. And again, I'll have to reread to see what the FWPD didn't want to touch or might have been dirty in. I'm sensing something about the father's business.

One more thought occurred to me. I've always imagined the 3 girls suffered the same fate, together. But is there a chance they were separated? I've always assumed Rachel was the target. Could Renee and Julie have been held/threatened to get info out of Rachel? Rachel was killed, and maybe Renee and Julie died because they were kept somewhere and abandoned.

 

[FW_Froggy]

My opinion is ALL three girls were killed on the 23rd. To be gone for 50 years I think they were either cremated or buried 60 feet deep on the brother's property in Marshal. Look up Arnold's Trucking and you'll see it's a massive business with ALL kinds of excavating equipment. IMO the letter was to buy time BUT was really not needed. JMO for being gone 50 years.

 

[jetsfanjohn]

My opinion is ALL three girls were killed on the 23rd. To be gone for 50 years I think they were either cremated or buried 60 feet deep on the brother's property in Marshal. Look up Arnold's Trucking and you'll see it's a massive business with ALL kinds of excavating equipment. IMO the letter was to buy time BUT was really not needed. JMO for being gone 50 years.

I agree that all three were killed on the 23rd, also. Not too sure where they where buried though. JMO, I think they could only be buried on Arnold property if CA was responsible. I don't rule him out, but he would not be my top suspect.

I don't think they were abducted from the Mall. If they were at the Mall that day, then I think it was before the sighting at Minot at 12.30pm. A later abduction from the Mall only works for me if they were 'grabbed' straight away while walking from where the car was parked to the Mall proper as they did not meet their friends there at 1.00pm.

With regard to the Mall I find it very strange that no one they knew saw them there that day. School was out for Christmas, you would think someone (e.g school friend/neighbour) would have seen them, but all we have are a handful of vague 'witnesses' .

I agree about the letter being an attempt to buy time, which worked as it focused attention on the Mall, for that crucial time when the bodies were being moved to wherever they are to this day, IMO.

 

[TedMac]

My opinion is ALL three girls were killed on the 23rd. To be gone for 50 years I think they were either cremated or buried 60 feet deep on the brother's property in Marshal. Look up Arnold's Trucking and you'll see it's a massive business with ALL kinds of excavating equipment. IMO the letter was to buy time BUT was really not needed. JMO for being gone 50 years.

Or placed in barrels of used transmission fluid and buried at the landfill or wherever the used transportation fluid was discarded. If that is the case, the bodies will never be recovered.

 

[Tex Willer]

In reality, only later did Rachel's family claim that the letter had not been written by Rachel. At first, however, they claimed that it was authentic.

 

[Wishyouknew]

My opinion is ALL three girls were killed on the 23rd. To be gone for 50 years I think they were either cremated or buried 60 feet deep on the brother's property in Marshal. Look up Arnold's Trucking and you'll see it's a massive business with ALL kinds of excavating equipment. IMO the letter was to buy time BUT was really not needed. JMO for being gone 50 years.

I don’t have enough time to come on here and straighten out the absolute disaster of false information on this forum. However, when I get wind that my grandfather has been referenced in this, I’m going to take a moment and just say froggy is the correct name for you. You have jumped into an assumption that you have absolutely no idea of what you speak.
1. Arnold Truckung was not even in existence in 1974.
2. My grandparents did not own the land that Arnold trucking sits on until 1978.
3. 12/23/74 they owned a house on a small lot in the middle of town and leased a small lot across the road that they had a garden on. The neighborhood was densely populated. Still is.
4. Please I hope you do research Arnold trucking and you will find this aligation could not possibly be true.
5. You have no clue what you speak of JH.
6. Word travels fast in this arena.
7. Instead of being keyboard warriors y’all should come help us at the Thaw the Cold Case walk raising awareness for ALL cold cases on 4/13/24. Starts about 1 pm. Meet at the cold case unit at 1000 Calvert. We will shuttle you to the courthouse and we will walk the 3/4 of a mile back to the cold case unit. If you can’t walk we will have transportation for you back to the cold case unit. Here’s a little clip from last years event. Families march in Fort Worth, hoping to draw attention to cold case victims
Be about the change not talking about others and spreading false information. Do something to help.
8. God bless you.

 

[T rex]

I have often wondered about LE involvement, also, but I can't figure how the 'Runaway' letter fits into this scenario (as I believe it was written by someone close to Rachel).

I agree but I feel like this is true for any theory. I'm still convinced of the people that were either directly or indirectly involved, nothing has changed there. I still have my favorite theory too but I have come off of it somewhat. Although I know there are other possibilities this one thing has to somehow go along with it in order for me to give it serious consideration.