Altered my above post after further reading that Josh was out!
UK UK - Joshua Clayton, 23, homicide or ?, Tresco Island, Isles of Scilly, 13 Sept 2015
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ApparentlyInDenial
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Ok so by all accounts there was alcohol at the party. That's not surprising. And it goes to background in someone who may not have been in a good state of mind. As does the report of the bicycle having crashed into a thicket; if I went to a party and tried to cycle home I'd probably crash the bike.
ash_uk@somebody
Verified family member - Joshua Clayton discussion
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The family felt the bike was planted. The damage sustained on the bike seemed artificial. The seat post was 180 backwards (really stiff), muddied chain. The bike was also found thrown into the bushes much farther down the dead end of the track.
I personally went to the scene and you would not be cycling in the mud track where it was suggested he fell off. Ie the route taken to cycle through this muddy track is the opposite way you’d go by path toward inland to make your way north and home.
The second inquest focused only on the bike and no witnesses allowed to be cross examined. The second jury led to this belief on limited view of evidence.
The main issue here is the lack of police investigation. Total lack, even complete destruction of evidence before it can be examined.
We only have witness testimony as evidence to go on. Nothing else is fact.
ash_uk@somebody
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Draft of podcast I started to write;
Tresco is the second largest island of a small group, one of only 5 inhabited islands of the Isles of Scilly. This archipelago is the most south western island-group associated with the mainland UK and situated within 30 miles off of Lands End. A population of around 2,300 people live on the isles of Scilly.
Around 170 or so live and work permanently on the tiny 1.15sq mile Tresco. Other seasonal workers and tourists may bring the total to double or triple the normal population. The island economy is provided by tourism, mainly as a time-share with exclusive property rental and historically it relied on exporting floral products that grew here because of the temperate climate unique to the area.
As a business and a home for many generations, the island is leased exclusively by the Dorrien-Smith family from the Duchy.
The Duchy of Cornwall, the private estates that make it up, provide the Prince of Wales’ private income, manors/castles/estates throughout Cornwall and other counties belonging to one of only two Duchy’s in the UK – the other being the Duchy of Lancaster which provides income to the Queen.
It is also noted that Robert Dorrien-Smith is close friends with HRH Prince Charles, with the latter having stayed numerous times on the island.
i Charles and Diana with sons Harry and William prepare for a cycling trip in Tresco during a holiday in the Scilly Isles 1989.
ii The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge leave the island on a helicopter 1 year after josh's disappearance in 2016
The island has no need for roads. With the two main inhabited areas close together near the northern side and the tracks and bridleways that permit use of golf-carts to all other areas of the island it’s simply unnecessary for larger vehicles. The only other vehicles are light tractors, rural shuttle pickups and a small Piaggio Porter van that was solely for the painter & decorator’s use.
The Dorrien-Smith family live in the Abbey which is a large chateaux mansion complex with gardens that lure many tourists due to the sub-tropical climate uniquely enjoyed in this area. It’s also one of the only places where you can see Red Squirrel in the wild, the species being specially introduced here in 2012.
The island isn’t flat, the topography is quoted “Tresco is unique amongst the off islands in that its habitat ranges from a windswept northern plateau with waved heath to sheltered bulb fields, wetland and lakes, to beautiful beaches backed by a sand dune system on the south coast”.
It’s easy to understand why people want to holiday and work here.
The island runs itself with no need for any permanently based island local police force (The main island St Mary’s covers all islands in the archipelago with 4 officers – a Police Sergeant, Constable and two specials). Travel to the island is on boat or helicopter via the main island which you can reach via regional airport links or indeed the much-loved Scillonian Ferry from Penzance.
Tresco has no previous mentions or ties to crime. The islands themselves proudly market worldwide through social media and Tresco is written about in books.
The police force and sergeant police officer already had a keen fanbase with up to 60,000 followers on facebook. Tales of petit crime and chasing suspect ‘criminals’ on children’s bicycles and a funny outake on beat policing a sleepy archipelago made for serial happy reading globally it seemed.
However, this police officer’s efficacy in his role was subsequently called into question in the aftermath of the biggest story to hit the islands since 1976. The last known murder was when a father killed and buried his disabled son, the case itself being raised in parliament and making its own news at that time.
Josh Clayton was born in February 1992 and lived in or around the Somerset county town of Taunton throughout his childhood. He was raised by his mother, Tracey Clayton and had two older siblings 5 and 10 years his senior. Josh’s father had left the family when he was 3 years old, heading to Thailand where contact had quickly broken down and no further relationship occurred.
Josh was a happy child nonetheless, full of joy and happy to wind up his friends and family and excitable and fun to be around. Sensitive and open he was always forthcoming with his issues and very close to his mother and sister. Josh’s older brother was active in supporting the family as a teenager and was looked up to as the responsible elder – it was easier for Josh to confide in his mother or sister.
Always full of ambition to go somewhere and be something. Josh moved around after college and travelled to work in places abroad as well as here in the UK. He made a lot of friends everywhere he went. He looked out for people and always looked for the best in them. He would be too forgiving maybe, showing his kind nature and wanting everybody to enjoy themselves.
Working on Tresco for his second season in 2015 he was more in love with the place than when he had worked there before. One person said he had called Tresco his “second home” to his beloved Somerset. He clearly had fun and enjoyed the lifestyle of working and living in the small community and was excelling at his flare for hospitality work, fulfilling his role as bar manager with friendly and attentive customer service. Customers and staff alike praised Josh. He was also known as the selfie king, with more than enough photos of him on social media to prove it!
He was actively making plans to go with his partner, Sam, to Japan at the end of the season on Tresco. They had acquired jobs working in a Ski Resort and it was going to be the next chapter in Josh’s travel. Sam was not on Tresco. Their distance relationship was still quite new and indeed Sam was meant to be coming to visit Josh the week he went missing.
His friends and colleagues on the island described Josh in positive ways, noting on his ability to bring a shining light to any room. He would not be afraid to meet people, make people laugh (usually at himself), offer a kind flirty nature and nobody would say anything negative about him that knew him.
Most seasonal staff are in their late teens or early twenties. Robert Dorrien Smith’s youngest son, Tristan Dorrien Smith, lived on the island and would regularly hang out with workers and would be known to throw parties in his shack, which is situated in a remote part of the island adjacent to the beach and the Abbey.
Being remote this was encouraged as the place to go as the loud music and congregation of people around the area would be less likely to disturb paying guests in the more built up areas to the north.
The end of the season was approaching, and the word had gone around the island on Saturday 12th September 2015. Tristan’s shed was going to be open tonight – “Who’s up for going?”.
The Shed is quite large, you’d call it an outbuilding. Inside a smaller room at the front of the building Tristan had a DJ booth, numerous couches, coffee tables and areas for dancing or mingling. There is lighting inside the Shed but nothing sufficient outside, where muddy tracks leave off in different directions north, south, east and west. Trees or hedgerows immediately around the area run along narrow single vehicle access to some fields before you encounter any other dwellings up the hill.
The beach is over 100meters to the east yet over some dunes, thicket and through bushes and trees. The shore is elevated lower down with shallow decline to the sea and wide sweeping sand and rocky outcrops that all protrude obviously and present no clear path for the entirety of the 1.3 mile coastline as it hooks back around into the harbour at Old Grimsby. This is where Josh’s accommodation is located and naturally a possible way home. The normal and safest route is via the bridle path and narrow lanes that head west and north from the Shed.
Revellers who were going to the party had been clocking off their respective duties during the day or evening. One of the last photos of Josh on social media is of him and a colleague, Amirah Haffar, having pre-party drinks as they finish work in the Ruin Café. Others leaving from the pub, called the New Inn, or making their way via accommodation to get changed or pick up more drinks, music equipment or get changed etc. Up to 40 or more so people end up heading to the party, mainly arriving after 11pm before the event is in full gear after midnight. The atmosphere is said to be very lively, music is loud and there is generally a good vibe described.
Some witnesses have said they saw and took drugs. Others say not so.
Most witnesses did confirm trouble with one partygoer. This individual might stick out as he is much older compared to the average age at the party, he is in his 40s and they are in their late teens or mid twenties. His behaviour is accused of being very drunk and creepy towards some of the girls and notably so towards Tristan’s cousin, Amber, whom he had tried to grope. Witnesses say that Tristan asked Leroy to leave the party, which he did so until returning between 20 and 30 minutes later. Nobody confirms to being with him outside or knowing why he returned.
Further trouble ensued with witnesses confirming they either saw or indeed had a scuffle with Leroy inside or just near the entrance of the Shed. A shirt was ripped and there was lots of shouting with a scene of commotion described by more than one person. Little facts are known but an incident is confirmed by numerous people. Nobody confirms seeing Josh involved but he is in the immediate area, present at the time with his close friends involved fighting Leroy.
Josh was said to be in high spirits and his usual self during the evening. Some people suggest he was wasted, staring into space at times, whilst others say he was a little tipsy but not legless. Another witness said they saw him smoking cannabis amongst drinking multiple cans of San Miguel beer. He was seen and proven to be inside the Shed (social media photos show him dancing and having a good time). However within an hour he was also witnessed outside the shed in a more urgent and panicked manner displaying behaviour that wasn’t normal. Around 1:15am or shorty after, Josh is seen to attempt to drive Tristan’s golf buggy and exclaiming, “I just need to get out of there and need to go home”. He was notably out of character.
A reason for Josh wanting to leave at this time is given by a couple of witnesses because he had to work the next morning at 07:00am. However, without any reasoning to the sudden urgency, a witness, F, said he was ‘frantic’ and desperate to drive the owner’s son’s buggy in his needed to go home. They took him back into the building and sat him down, removing him from the ‘situation’ involving the buggy.
The same witness, F, said she could see this scuffle going on inside the entrance to the shed which prevented her from getting outside. Nonetheless after leaving Josh with her friend she went off to get her bicycle and then returned to find Josh was already outside yet heading back again to the Shed.
After leaving him for a second time to go and collect others to begin to head home, she noticed that he had started to head off in the other direction to her. When she had gone back to check he had vanished. This witness said that it was out of character for Josh to walk home alone. Everybody knew he had formed a buddy system to ensure that people always sought out a walking partner if they had to go out at night. Josh wouldn’t put himself in any danger unnecessarily as he knew the risks around the island.
He is seen outside the Shed with two other individuals that shortly later are in her group that leave. Her last sight of Josh is to assume he was heading in the opposite direction and she assumes this was to get a bicycle. He was headed towards the “banks” area and this would not be suitable for bicycles, even in the day-time which everybody knew. This witness, F, says she last saw Josh around 1:50am. He had a torch/light illuminating his face from the iPhone he owned.
Witness statements now begin to blatantly differ.
Numerous accounts do not align, notably and importantly concerning the whereabouts of Leroy Thomas?
Which group he is with to go home? What route is taken?
Is anybody driving any vehicles? Are people being shuttled around in golf buggies under the influence?
Who is the last to see Leroy and where?
__
__
__
At this point I am totally unsure how to collate the evidence without fear of compromising further investigations.
__
__
__
Searches took place the next day. We know Josh was expected at work by 07:00am and he didn’t turn up. Search parties
olice called:What happened.
Josh found 10 days later. Over 2 days after the searches were called off and everybody had returned home to the mainland.
Things that happened that week:
Tristan was immediately flown off the island.
Detectives went to the island but were brought home quickly. (cover this – must be in the disclosure).
Vehicles were hastily repaired by the island ASAP.
A bicycle was found near the shed. Minor damage, odd damage to the seat (180* around) and two other artifacts thought to belong to Josh were found closeby.
No evidence was secured. Josh’s room was left open. Things were taken from Josh’s room, unknown if anything was disturbed that night but certainly in the days after. Potential forensic opportunities were eroded.
Now we should talk about Leroy and what he did next throughout that night and the next day.
This witness really provides further twist in this mystery and halted the first inquest. He must have left the Shed area around 3:00 or just before. We don’t know who he goes home with. He is in one of two groups that traverse the island. He is either very subdued or very angry. He is very drunk.
After departing from the others, he doesn’t go into his apartment, rather he goes back in the direction of where the party was held. Leroy ends up staying in one of two buildings known as the Artists’ Chalets. A small 1 story contained dwelling situated on a larger farm complex. This is borough Farm and is located not too far north from the Shed.
The twist was to become one of many. Leroy provided slightly changing or evolving statements to the police. First was an encounter with the St Mary’s PC; Matt Crowe. A 20 year veteran constable. Only notes exist from a conversation that took place as Leroy was leaving the islands immediately after being fired by Tresco Estates.
Second was when he provided an S9 statement to the police in the week that Josh was still missing.
Third was an interview under caution the day after the autopsy had taken place, some more than three weeks after josh had gone missing.
Fourth was in a prepared document answering questions that were put to him by the family for the inquest. This is late 2016.
Fifth was the inquest cross examination, or attempts to cross examine by the Coroner. The inquest was then halted before any further cross examination by the family or the police barristers. January 2017.
Sixth occurred during a conversation with the Senior Investigating Officer Deborah Jago and the Police Sergeant from Scilly, Colin Taylor. This took place in a backroom of the Inquest Coroner’s Court. January 2017.
Seventh and final interaction with the police was some few weeks after the inquest and to take a formal S9 which outlined Thomas’ evidence at the inquest. February 2017.
Tresco is the second largest island of a small group, one of only 5 inhabited islands of the Isles of Scilly. This archipelago is the most south western island-group associated with the mainland UK and situated within 30 miles off of Lands End. A population of around 2,300 people live on the isles of Scilly.
Around 170 or so live and work permanently on the tiny 1.15sq mile Tresco. Other seasonal workers and tourists may bring the total to double or triple the normal population. The island economy is provided by tourism, mainly as a time-share with exclusive property rental and historically it relied on exporting floral products that grew here because of the temperate climate unique to the area.
As a business and a home for many generations, the island is leased exclusively by the Dorrien-Smith family from the Duchy.
The Duchy of Cornwall, the private estates that make it up, provide the Prince of Wales’ private income, manors/castles/estates throughout Cornwall and other counties belonging to one of only two Duchy’s in the UK – the other being the Duchy of Lancaster which provides income to the Queen.
It is also noted that Robert Dorrien-Smith is close friends with HRH Prince Charles, with the latter having stayed numerous times on the island.
i Charles and Diana with sons Harry and William prepare for a cycling trip in Tresco during a holiday in the Scilly Isles 1989.
ii The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge leave the island on a helicopter 1 year after josh's disappearance in 2016
The island has no need for roads. With the two main inhabited areas close together near the northern side and the tracks and bridleways that permit use of golf-carts to all other areas of the island it’s simply unnecessary for larger vehicles. The only other vehicles are light tractors, rural shuttle pickups and a small Piaggio Porter van that was solely for the painter & decorator’s use.
The Dorrien-Smith family live in the Abbey which is a large chateaux mansion complex with gardens that lure many tourists due to the sub-tropical climate uniquely enjoyed in this area. It’s also one of the only places where you can see Red Squirrel in the wild, the species being specially introduced here in 2012.
The island isn’t flat, the topography is quoted “Tresco is unique amongst the off islands in that its habitat ranges from a windswept northern plateau with waved heath to sheltered bulb fields, wetland and lakes, to beautiful beaches backed by a sand dune system on the south coast”.
It’s easy to understand why people want to holiday and work here.
The island runs itself with no need for any permanently based island local police force (The main island St Mary’s covers all islands in the archipelago with 4 officers – a Police Sergeant, Constable and two specials). Travel to the island is on boat or helicopter via the main island which you can reach via regional airport links or indeed the much-loved Scillonian Ferry from Penzance.
Tresco has no previous mentions or ties to crime. The islands themselves proudly market worldwide through social media and Tresco is written about in books.
The police force and sergeant police officer already had a keen fanbase with up to 60,000 followers on facebook. Tales of petit crime and chasing suspect ‘criminals’ on children’s bicycles and a funny outake on beat policing a sleepy archipelago made for serial happy reading globally it seemed.
However, this police officer’s efficacy in his role was subsequently called into question in the aftermath of the biggest story to hit the islands since 1976. The last known murder was when a father killed and buried his disabled son, the case itself being raised in parliament and making its own news at that time.
Josh Clayton was born in February 1992 and lived in or around the Somerset county town of Taunton throughout his childhood. He was raised by his mother, Tracey Clayton and had two older siblings 5 and 10 years his senior. Josh’s father had left the family when he was 3 years old, heading to Thailand where contact had quickly broken down and no further relationship occurred.
Josh was a happy child nonetheless, full of joy and happy to wind up his friends and family and excitable and fun to be around. Sensitive and open he was always forthcoming with his issues and very close to his mother and sister. Josh’s older brother was active in supporting the family as a teenager and was looked up to as the responsible elder – it was easier for Josh to confide in his mother or sister.
Always full of ambition to go somewhere and be something. Josh moved around after college and travelled to work in places abroad as well as here in the UK. He made a lot of friends everywhere he went. He looked out for people and always looked for the best in them. He would be too forgiving maybe, showing his kind nature and wanting everybody to enjoy themselves.
Working on Tresco for his second season in 2015 he was more in love with the place than when he had worked there before. One person said he had called Tresco his “second home” to his beloved Somerset. He clearly had fun and enjoyed the lifestyle of working and living in the small community and was excelling at his flare for hospitality work, fulfilling his role as bar manager with friendly and attentive customer service. Customers and staff alike praised Josh. He was also known as the selfie king, with more than enough photos of him on social media to prove it!
He was actively making plans to go with his partner, Sam, to Japan at the end of the season on Tresco. They had acquired jobs working in a Ski Resort and it was going to be the next chapter in Josh’s travel. Sam was not on Tresco. Their distance relationship was still quite new and indeed Sam was meant to be coming to visit Josh the week he went missing.
His friends and colleagues on the island described Josh in positive ways, noting on his ability to bring a shining light to any room. He would not be afraid to meet people, make people laugh (usually at himself), offer a kind flirty nature and nobody would say anything negative about him that knew him.
Most seasonal staff are in their late teens or early twenties. Robert Dorrien Smith’s youngest son, Tristan Dorrien Smith, lived on the island and would regularly hang out with workers and would be known to throw parties in his shack, which is situated in a remote part of the island adjacent to the beach and the Abbey.
Being remote this was encouraged as the place to go as the loud music and congregation of people around the area would be less likely to disturb paying guests in the more built up areas to the north.
The end of the season was approaching, and the word had gone around the island on Saturday 12th September 2015. Tristan’s shed was going to be open tonight – “Who’s up for going?”.
The Shed is quite large, you’d call it an outbuilding. Inside a smaller room at the front of the building Tristan had a DJ booth, numerous couches, coffee tables and areas for dancing or mingling. There is lighting inside the Shed but nothing sufficient outside, where muddy tracks leave off in different directions north, south, east and west. Trees or hedgerows immediately around the area run along narrow single vehicle access to some fields before you encounter any other dwellings up the hill.
The beach is over 100meters to the east yet over some dunes, thicket and through bushes and trees. The shore is elevated lower down with shallow decline to the sea and wide sweeping sand and rocky outcrops that all protrude obviously and present no clear path for the entirety of the 1.3 mile coastline as it hooks back around into the harbour at Old Grimsby. This is where Josh’s accommodation is located and naturally a possible way home. The normal and safest route is via the bridle path and narrow lanes that head west and north from the Shed.
Revellers who were going to the party had been clocking off their respective duties during the day or evening. One of the last photos of Josh on social media is of him and a colleague, Amirah Haffar, having pre-party drinks as they finish work in the Ruin Café. Others leaving from the pub, called the New Inn, or making their way via accommodation to get changed or pick up more drinks, music equipment or get changed etc. Up to 40 or more so people end up heading to the party, mainly arriving after 11pm before the event is in full gear after midnight. The atmosphere is said to be very lively, music is loud and there is generally a good vibe described.
Some witnesses have said they saw and took drugs. Others say not so.
Most witnesses did confirm trouble with one partygoer. This individual might stick out as he is much older compared to the average age at the party, he is in his 40s and they are in their late teens or mid twenties. His behaviour is accused of being very drunk and creepy towards some of the girls and notably so towards Tristan’s cousin, Amber, whom he had tried to grope. Witnesses say that Tristan asked Leroy to leave the party, which he did so until returning between 20 and 30 minutes later. Nobody confirms to being with him outside or knowing why he returned.
Further trouble ensued with witnesses confirming they either saw or indeed had a scuffle with Leroy inside or just near the entrance of the Shed. A shirt was ripped and there was lots of shouting with a scene of commotion described by more than one person. Little facts are known but an incident is confirmed by numerous people. Nobody confirms seeing Josh involved but he is in the immediate area, present at the time with his close friends involved fighting Leroy.
Josh was said to be in high spirits and his usual self during the evening. Some people suggest he was wasted, staring into space at times, whilst others say he was a little tipsy but not legless. Another witness said they saw him smoking cannabis amongst drinking multiple cans of San Miguel beer. He was seen and proven to be inside the Shed (social media photos show him dancing and having a good time). However within an hour he was also witnessed outside the shed in a more urgent and panicked manner displaying behaviour that wasn’t normal. Around 1:15am or shorty after, Josh is seen to attempt to drive Tristan’s golf buggy and exclaiming, “I just need to get out of there and need to go home”. He was notably out of character.
A reason for Josh wanting to leave at this time is given by a couple of witnesses because he had to work the next morning at 07:00am. However, without any reasoning to the sudden urgency, a witness, F, said he was ‘frantic’ and desperate to drive the owner’s son’s buggy in his needed to go home. They took him back into the building and sat him down, removing him from the ‘situation’ involving the buggy.
The same witness, F, said she could see this scuffle going on inside the entrance to the shed which prevented her from getting outside. Nonetheless after leaving Josh with her friend she went off to get her bicycle and then returned to find Josh was already outside yet heading back again to the Shed.
After leaving him for a second time to go and collect others to begin to head home, she noticed that he had started to head off in the other direction to her. When she had gone back to check he had vanished. This witness said that it was out of character for Josh to walk home alone. Everybody knew he had formed a buddy system to ensure that people always sought out a walking partner if they had to go out at night. Josh wouldn’t put himself in any danger unnecessarily as he knew the risks around the island.
He is seen outside the Shed with two other individuals that shortly later are in her group that leave. Her last sight of Josh is to assume he was heading in the opposite direction and she assumes this was to get a bicycle. He was headed towards the “banks” area and this would not be suitable for bicycles, even in the day-time which everybody knew. This witness, F, says she last saw Josh around 1:50am. He had a torch/light illuminating his face from the iPhone he owned.
Witness statements now begin to blatantly differ.
Numerous accounts do not align, notably and importantly concerning the whereabouts of Leroy Thomas?
Which group he is with to go home? What route is taken?
Is anybody driving any vehicles? Are people being shuttled around in golf buggies under the influence?
Who is the last to see Leroy and where?
__
__
__
At this point I am totally unsure how to collate the evidence without fear of compromising further investigations.
__
__
__
Searches took place the next day. We know Josh was expected at work by 07:00am and he didn’t turn up. Search parties
olice called:What happened. Josh found 10 days later. Over 2 days after the searches were called off and everybody had returned home to the mainland.
Things that happened that week:
Tristan was immediately flown off the island.
Detectives went to the island but were brought home quickly. (cover this – must be in the disclosure).
Vehicles were hastily repaired by the island ASAP.
A bicycle was found near the shed. Minor damage, odd damage to the seat (180* around) and two other artifacts thought to belong to Josh were found closeby.
No evidence was secured. Josh’s room was left open. Things were taken from Josh’s room, unknown if anything was disturbed that night but certainly in the days after. Potential forensic opportunities were eroded.
Now we should talk about Leroy and what he did next throughout that night and the next day.
This witness really provides further twist in this mystery and halted the first inquest. He must have left the Shed area around 3:00 or just before. We don’t know who he goes home with. He is in one of two groups that traverse the island. He is either very subdued or very angry. He is very drunk.
After departing from the others, he doesn’t go into his apartment, rather he goes back in the direction of where the party was held. Leroy ends up staying in one of two buildings known as the Artists’ Chalets. A small 1 story contained dwelling situated on a larger farm complex. This is borough Farm and is located not too far north from the Shed.
The twist was to become one of many. Leroy provided slightly changing or evolving statements to the police. First was an encounter with the St Mary’s PC; Matt Crowe. A 20 year veteran constable. Only notes exist from a conversation that took place as Leroy was leaving the islands immediately after being fired by Tresco Estates.
Second was when he provided an S9 statement to the police in the week that Josh was still missing.
Third was an interview under caution the day after the autopsy had taken place, some more than three weeks after josh had gone missing.
Fourth was in a prepared document answering questions that were put to him by the family for the inquest. This is late 2016.
Fifth was the inquest cross examination, or attempts to cross examine by the Coroner. The inquest was then halted before any further cross examination by the family or the police barristers. January 2017.
Sixth occurred during a conversation with the Senior Investigating Officer Deborah Jago and the Police Sergeant from Scilly, Colin Taylor. This took place in a backroom of the Inquest Coroner’s Court. January 2017.
Seventh and final interaction with the police was some few weeks after the inquest and to take a formal S9 which outlined Thomas’ evidence at the inquest. February 2017.
ApparentlyInDenial
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From what I've read so far, these are the questions that come up:
1. Specifically what outcome are you hoping to achieve?
2. What was Sam (Josh's BF) involvement in the story of the disappearance that day/night? Has he given an account of Josh's state of mind that evening and the preceding days?
3. Are there coordinates or a similarly precise location available for where Josh was found?
4. What danger was Josh trying to address with the buddy system?
5. What did the post-morterm report on the physical/biological nature of Josh's death (rather than the circumstancial nature which has been litigated in the inquests)?
6. Is there any factual evidence you know of - in reports of Josh's physical state, or witness statements etc. - that Josh's death was not an accident?
If you can shine any light on those that'd be great.
Also a note on a question you include on your website:
"Why would the police never elevate this case to a criminal investigation based on probable suspicion?"
They'd need a very clear reason. Josh wasn't a High-Risk Missing Person. It's extremely rare for a missing person case to be converted into a suspected murder case so soon, and impossible for the police to do so without a prompt/proof.
Recent Sarah Everard and Richard Okorogheye cases show this...
I know that - whatever happened that night - it is incredibly difficult for you and your family losing your brother.
Last edited:
ash_uk@somebody
Verified family member - Joshua Clayton discussion
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1. Specifically what outcome are you hoping to achieve?
So, I accept this happened a long time ago now. One should be 'over it' is an undertone and reminder from people. I am not suggesting that is what you are saying - but time has 'moved on'. People die, yada yada.
But this is not the case with losing my brother for me. We lost him in such strange circumstances with so many things going on that night. There are probably a million reasons why I am doing this, each time I speak to somebody new or we uncover something else there are just further questions. The inquest did nothing to answer any questions, I am a human being and I am allowed to ask any question of any other human being. I will keep seeking to get answers whilst I know they are out there.
2. What was Sam (Josh's BF) involvement in the story of the disappearance that day/night? Has he given an account of Josh's state of mind that evening and the preceding days?
I will dig into the cache of evidence and get back to you! There might be clues above in the draft podcast post I made.
Mum spoke to him daily. My sister spoke to him very regularly.
He had plans, Sam was going out to see him in the end of season which was around a week after this event.
3. Are there coordinates or a similarly precise location available for where Josh was found?
Approx Here : XM9J+GG Isles of Scilly I will get the exact location from the evidence and get back to you.
4. What danger was Josh trying to address with the buddy system?
It was dark on the island, you couldn't see your hand in front of your face at night. There were groups of friends who'd hang out differently over the island. They all lived in different places and had different jobs, there were multiple places they'd kick back. Josh was just a caring person. More than one person confirmed he had invented this buddy system.
5. What did the post-morterm report on the physical/biological nature of Josh's death (rather than the circumstancial nature which has been litigated in the inquests)?
I could post the whole toxicology and post mortem report but I think that's kinda off limits for the pathologist. I am sure it's reported widely on the news reports after the first inquest, he had zero drugs and only less than 2 times the drink drive limit.
6. Is there any factual evidence you know of - in reports of Josh's physical state, or witness statements etc. - that Josh's death was not an accident?
I'll get back to you. Understand his body was in a terrible state of decomposition (see below delays induced to the examination on him).
Regarding the high risk missing person I believe there is enough concern in the evidence surrounding Leroy that night, know early on when the island swiftly sacked and removed him from the scene. Most coppers I have spoken are pretty embarrassed that this has happened in today's age.
These screen clips are from the Dorset review. PDF on my website.
Detectives were quickly removed from the island.
The Scilly Sergeant Colin Taylor spoke to me on the Monday morning after the 12th Sept Saturday night. I asked how quickly I could get to the island, he was taken aback and explained it was not a matter of just going there. Also the island is private, the who search team and even the police presence (and even ourselves) were only welcome on the island if the management or owners were happy for us to be there. We were reminded of this several times, especially when asking questions as advised to keep positive and the searches should go on longer etc etc. Dude, I really look back now, I really regret not saying what was in my head at the time, so many times.
In short, no 'normal' policing happened to secure and gather evidence. Witnesses were not interviewed widely, physical evidence was laid to waste and any physical evidence had zero chain of authority placed upon it whatsoever. The copper lost the artifacts near the bike. Further more on Leroy -
There is behaviour concerns of Leroy that night. Clear and documented early.
No forensics even by the mainland. They interviewed Leroy after the post mortem. They took zero photos of his cuts and wounds (two whole weeks later mind you, still visible according to the transcript). What was he up to that night on the same night Josh went missing? Our barrister pointed out how insane this is, based on the amount of other criminality that took place that night how the police did not treat this more seriously.
Maybe they were not allowed on the island to even make an effective investigation? Just leaving it to the local bobby to ask some questions here n there.
margarita25
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Thank you for sharing all this, @ash_uk@somebody.(Mind if I call you Ash for short? )
This is a lot of material you have provided, and it will definitely take some time to look through and study.
You have done a great job.
)This is a lot of material you have provided, and it will definitely take some time to look through and study.
You have done a great job.
ash_uk@somebody
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Ash is totally fine !Thank you for sharing all this, @ash_uk@somebody.(Mind if I call you Ash for short?
This is a lot of material you have provided, and it will definitely take some time to look through and study.
You have done a great job.
We have not even got out of the starting blocks yet, I have a ton to share. I have questions and hopefully you guys can give me some insight and inspiration.
Who knows, maybe some people who were there that night might stumble and come on to comment.
ApparentlyInDenial
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@ash_uk@somebody
Thanks for that.
So what was the actual cause of death please?
And my reading of all this is that the central reason you feel Leroy is incriminated is because he was witnessed to be behaving pretty badly earlier that night toward other people, his older age, and because of his reputation as a shady type?
Thanks for that.
So what was the actual cause of death please?
And my reading of all this is that the central reason you feel Leroy is incriminated is because he was witnessed to be behaving pretty badly earlier that night toward other people, his older age, and because of his reputation as a shady type?
Tortoise
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Sorry to jump in, I haven't managed to read the last page yet (but I will), so forgive me if you've covered it already - do you have the actual witness statements, in their own words, or do you only have summaries of what the witnesses said? I'm not asking you to post them here if you do have them, I'm just interested in whether they are available to you. As I say, apologies if you've already said above.
ash_uk@somebody
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Hi. The cause of death was not given, there wasn’t anything the pathologist could give, even drowning or dry drowning. I will grab the summary and post it here later.
The problem with the witness is his statements change and expose more information. Such as not knowing who Josh even was through to admitting hitting him outside the shed and then going to look for him throughout the night after everybody went home.
I don’t think the witness page is too clear on the website - the link only showing half way down. I might edit the site later to show a page tab at the top and add more pages as per insight / feedback here.
Thanks again for the interest.
ash_uk@somebody
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<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>
Thanks for all of your time spent reading this. I am really grateful and humbled by all the interest.
Leroy was a person of significant interest indeed, the police having interviewed him under caution. The evidence we have are witness testimonies. I can give you anything you ask for regarding the real disclosure which you could cross examine as facts?
I also have this spreadsheet collating all important points for cross examination in witness statements. Would this be helpful for the community? To back up that spreadsheet I have the actual evidence in raw form (PDF etc) and call notes from speaking to witnesses.
Thanks for all of your time spent reading this. I am really grateful and humbled by all the interest.
Leroy was a person of significant interest indeed, the police having interviewed him under caution. The evidence we have are witness testimonies. I can give you anything you ask for regarding the real disclosure which you could cross examine as facts?
I also have this spreadsheet collating all important points for cross examination in witness statements. Would this be helpful for the community? To back up that spreadsheet I have the actual evidence in raw form (PDF etc) and call notes from speaking to witnesses.
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ash_uk@somebody
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<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>
I have the audio from the first inquest and a transcription of it too. You can hear Leroy give his whole new account of the night and the admittance of hitting Josh is in that (I think, it could be in the latter statement after the inquest but I will confirm).
I have the audio from the first inquest and a transcription of it too. You can hear Leroy give his whole new account of the night and the admittance of hitting Josh is in that (I think, it could be in the latter statement after the inquest but I will confirm).
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ApparentlyInDenial
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I'll happily cross-examine anything you would like me to. Some of my professional background might be useful.
I'll always be black & white honest though; I'm not trying to discourage you, just being an honest friendly voice.
ApparentlyInDenial
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Don't be shy to post as much documentation/internals of the case and inquest as you legally can, which is probably the vast majority of any documents. There would be injunctions in place - which you'd know about - if you weren't meant to release specific information, which on this case I doubt.
ash_uk@somebody
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There is just so much of it.
Here is some inquest audio leading up to the halting of the proceeding.
https://www.somebodyknows.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Inquest-Audio-14-15-LT.mp3
I then have the following I could share:
2015-09-16 Witness Statement - Leroy Thomas - Painter.docx
2015-10-09 Leroy Thomas Interview Transcript.pdf
2017-01-10 Leroy Thomas Answer to family questions read at inquest and Coroner questioned on.docx
.a 2017-01 Post inquest Jago n Taylor n LT pt1.docx
.b 2017-01 Jago n LT pt2.docx
.c 2017-01 Jago n LT pt3.docx
.d 2017-01 Jago n Lt pt4.docx
2017-02 LT S9 after Inquest, 1941 Office Lens.docx
I have about 320 files - some will be duplicates (redacted / not redacted and maybe duplicated for filing easy find).
I have not been able to track down the boat that found Josh. It is believed to be the Kurun which is at port in Brest. I have sent a number of messages to the harbour masters at both marinas there but nobody gets back to me. I have spoken to them on the phone but can't seem to get any further to the owner or skipper of the boat. I wanted to cross check the sailing log and thank them for reporting in the sighting.
I have a bunch of messages on my phone with witnesses. Some really closed ranks, hard.
The case is incredibly complex... Do ask away. We need to think of a way I can securely share files and control the access to the evidence. If I am seeking the trusted advice of individuals then I am much happier than just throwing everything on the public internet. We can even get the post mortem pics if we want.
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Hey everyone,
ash_uk@somebody has now been Verified in Josh's case as a family member.
As a Verified Insider, ash_uk does not have to provide links to their knowledge of the case or what they state as fact, and is allowed to link to their comprehensive site related to Josh's case.
As with all VIs, please treat them with sensitivity and respect at all times. If they state something you disagree with, do not argue with them or challenge them. It's up to individual members to decide how much weight to give to the information presented.
The status of this case is undetermined as it relates to whether misadventure vs foul play, and there are no officially named POIs or suspects in this case. Please do not make insinuations or direct accusations against any parties being discussed. Members may question various aspects but please do so in such a fashion as to not cast aspersions.
Things that cannot be discussed on the public thread can be discussed in private conversations, as long as the private discussion does not end up on the main thread.
Welcome ash_uk, and Thank you to everyone for being here to discuss Josh's case.
ash_uk@somebody has now been Verified in Josh's case as a family member.
As a Verified Insider, ash_uk does not have to provide links to their knowledge of the case or what they state as fact, and is allowed to link to their comprehensive site related to Josh's case.
As with all VIs, please treat them with sensitivity and respect at all times. If they state something you disagree with, do not argue with them or challenge them. It's up to individual members to decide how much weight to give to the information presented.
The status of this case is undetermined as it relates to whether misadventure vs foul play, and there are no officially named POIs or suspects in this case. Please do not make insinuations or direct accusations against any parties being discussed. Members may question various aspects but please do so in such a fashion as to not cast aspersions.
Things that cannot be discussed on the public thread can be discussed in private conversations, as long as the private discussion does not end up on the main thread.
Welcome ash_uk, and Thank you to everyone for being here to discuss Josh's case.
This bit came from an article about a completely different case, but this paragraph could certainly be applied here if there was in fact a crime committed in Josh's case..
imo, speculation, fwiw..
'Someone commissioned bank manager's murder – what’s to prevent them commissioning another?'
''So what should be done? With every cold case I always argue that they are solved by “shaking the tree”. When a crime first occurs, that “tree” of suspects, witnesses, alliances, people of interest – local networks of friendships and work colleagues – is strong and resolute and not too much intelligence can be gathered. However, over time, old friendships falter and people move on; local networks that had once been firm and unwavering begin to break down.
Shake the tree years after the event and leaves and branches begin to fall to the ground in greater numbers and this becomes intelligence which can be harvested to help to solve the case.''
imo, speculation, fwiw..
'Someone commissioned bank manager's murder – what’s to prevent them commissioning another?'
''So what should be done? With every cold case I always argue that they are solved by “shaking the tree”. When a crime first occurs, that “tree” of suspects, witnesses, alliances, people of interest – local networks of friendships and work colleagues – is strong and resolute and not too much intelligence can be gathered. However, over time, old friendships falter and people move on; local networks that had once been firm and unwavering begin to break down.
Shake the tree years after the event and leaves and branches begin to fall to the ground in greater numbers and this becomes intelligence which can be harvested to help to solve the case.''
Tortoise
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I was just looking into dry drowning to see what it is and noticed this interesting snippet of information -
- In saltwater drowning, Na and Cl concentrations in right and left heart blood should be widely different
Drowning
(Na is sodium, Cl is chlorine)
ash_uk@somebody
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I think the case was that decomposition and time since death meant it was so bad the pathologist could not tell. I will get the full pathologist report out and maybe post it privately somewhere...
I remember he could not tell if Josh was dead before going into the water or not. He couldn’t rule out certain physical harm as the decomposition was so bad. I asked about the neck and any way to tell if choked, he said impossible to discount it 100% due to the amount of damage to the neck by sea life.