What do the profilers say?

[sandraladeda]

I don't think you understand how I"m using the term "intellectual." I don't mean "intelligent." Ted Kaczynski was an "intellectual," in that he used an ideology to justify killing. So did JBR's killer:

"...but not the country that it serves."

"you're not the only fat cat around, so don't think that killing will be difficult."


Just a reminder, the idea that a parent 'wrote the RN as staging' is nothing more than a creation. Its a fictional creation with no support in evidence.

I agree the RN claims to use an ideology to justify killing. But I think the RN is a ludicrous fabricated attempt to sound like a real RN. The idea that a parent wrote this note is not a creation, it is a theory, with some support in evidence.

Are you saying you think the RN was a real RN, that at some point in time, the killer(s) intended to seek to collect the ransom? Do you think the killers intended to kill JBR and collect the ransom? Do you think it was a kidnap/pedophile sexual assault plot? Do you think the "foreign faction" was not only representing an ideology but also simultaneously harboured a lust for sex with small children?

IMO, it can't be a FF representing an ideology as well as a sociopathic pedophile as well as a kidnap for $$.

If it's a kidnap plot - Leave note (I have your daughter. $100,000 gets her back. Will call you. Don't call cops.) Take child. Make arrangements to collect $$....

If it's a pedophile sexual assault/murder plot - Sneak in to house. Assault and kill child. Stash body completely out of sight, maybe, to get out of Dodge before a posse goes looking. No need for a note. Vamoose.

If it's an ideological statment to John R about his business interests, from a foreign faction - Break in. Kill daughter (or son) leave pre-written note (Because of your evil business practices, we have punished you, JR, by killing your daughter/son. Death to fat cats!)

Which do you really think it is, hotyhat?

 

[IrishMist]

Parents just don't garrote their children.

Sadly enough, they do. Here's a couple of links:

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_41427.asp

Police report that the child died from extreme blunt and physical trauma.

This was five-year-old Dedric's first visitation with his estranged father, it was stated.

The affidavit said Atkins refused to give a statement to officers, but that he "made spontaneous statements to EMS personnel about killing the child. He gave details how he beat, choked and drowned the victim."

It said an examination of the child showed trauma about the head, ligature marks around the neck, and that his clothes were wet.


And:

http://www.sun-herald.com/NewsArchive2/101904/tp9ew15.htm?date=101904&story=tp9ew15.htm



Marsha Vanfleet is looking at a minimum of 15 years in prison for abusing her 5-year-old daughter. Marsha, 25, pleaded no contest Monday to first-degree felony aggravated child abuse and second-degree felony child neglect.



Her injuries included:

* A broken arm.

* Ligature marks around her neck.

* Bruises, including one consistent with possibly being stomped.

* Open sores.

* Missing chunks of hair.

Unfortunately, there are more if you want them...

 

[Brefie]

You got proof a parent wrote a RN to themselves as staging? There's no precedent for this, because it doesn't happen.

There is, however, a lot of precedent for threatening notes written by 'intellectual' sociopathic killers.

I didn't make a statement - you did.

Where's the proof to back up your statement?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Sadly enough, they do. Here's a couple of links:

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_41427.asp

Police report that the child died from extreme blunt and physical trauma.

This was five-year-old Dedric's first visitation with his estranged father, it was stated.

The affidavit said Atkins refused to give a statement to officers, but that he "made spontaneous statements to EMS personnel about killing the child. He gave details how he beat, choked and drowned the victim."

It said an examination of the child showed trauma about the head, ligature marks around the neck, and that his clothes were wet.


And:

http://www.sun-herald.com/NewsArchive2/101904/tp9ew15.htm?date=101904&story=tp9ew15.htm



Marsha Vanfleet is looking at a minimum of 15 years in prison for abusing her 5-year-old daughter. Marsha, 25, pleaded no contest Monday to first-degree felony aggravated child abuse and second-degree felony child neglect.



Her injuries included:

* A broken arm.

* Ligature marks around her neck.

* Bruises, including one consistent with possibly being stomped.

* Open sores.

* Missing chunks of hair.

Unfortunately, there are more if you want them...

Thanks for all the graphic, but where's the garrote?

What’s more, says Smit, there were also dozens of fibers that didn’t come from the Ramseys, and Smit is unaware of a single case in which a parent used a garrote like this to kill a child.

 

[rashomon]

Just a reminder, the idea that a parent 'wrote the RN as staging' is nothing more than a creation. Its a fictional creation with no support in evidence.

It is an assumption (but so is believing that an intruder wrote the note), but an assumption which makes far more sense imo than believing an intruder wrote the RN.

I suppose the Ramseys originally wanted to dump the body somewhere, which is why they wrote the ransom note - to make it look like a kidnapping.
But they then they decided against dumping the body, for fear of being seen. There are always people up at night too who might look out their window and see their car, or see them hauling the body into the trunk of their car.

And whenever discussing the ransom note, one has to take into account how the Ramseys behaved afterwards: although the note threatened that JB would be beheaded if they talked to as much as a stray cat, they did not take that death threat seriously at all, but openly invited the neighbors over to their house. Pretty much says it all imo.

 

[IrishMist]

Thanks for all the graphic, but where's the garrote?

A garrote is a ligature, HOTYH!

I was going by your statement that "Parents just don't garrote their children."

What I didn't realize was that you were quoting Lou Smidt where he says a ligature "like that".

So you meant the exact same garrote, correct?

My mistake.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Hmmm, lets see. Was JBR murdered by a 'mentally unbalanced' mother, or a sociopath adult male? Any time I've ever read about a small child murdered the way JBR was murdered, its always a sociopath adult male. Parents just don't garrote their children.

Are you implying parents never do sick, twisted, disgusting horrid things to their own children? Please:banghead:

 

[tipper]

Are you implying parents never do sick, twisted, disgusting horrid things to their own children? Please:banghead:

I don't know what Hold...hat is implying; but how often do otherwise perfectly normal parents get up one day and brutally murder their children?

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't know what Hold...hat is implying; but how often do otherwise perfectly normal parents get up one day and brutally murder their children?

Happens all the time...sadly.

 

[Brefie]

How do we know they were perfectly normal? Just because there is nothing recorded with any authorities does not mean it did not happen. Not to mention, we do know that JB visited the Dr. more times than is 'normal' or 'usual' for a girl her age.

 

[tipper]

How do we know they were perfectly normal? Just because there is nothing recorded with any authorities does not mean it did not happen. Not to mention, we do know that JB visited the Dr. more times than is 'normal' or 'usual' for a girl her age.

It's not just nothing recorded with any authorities. The tabs searched high and low for dirt too.

Also:
http://jfjbr.tripod.com/truth/bynum.html
SAWYER: And some other notes. Dr Beuf says he last saw JonBenet Ramsey in November 1996, and that was a checkup for a sinus infection. A couple of other things. Dr Beuf says he has turned in people he has suspected of physical and sexual abuse in his career, and that he not only looks for physical evidence, but personality changes in the children involved. And he says he saw none of that with JonBenet Ramsey. And PrimeTime consulted other pediatric experts about JonBenet's records, and they agreed with Dr Beuf's analysis that there was nothing unusual there for a girl her age. When we come back, we will take you to the Ramsey home

 

[Brefie]

Well, 'the kind of people' the Ramseys are, they would not have their dirt all over town, they were smart people - don't make 'em decent.

 

[tipper]

Well, 'the kind of people' the Ramseys are, they would not have their dirt all over town, they were smart people - don't make 'em decent.

Actually, they strike me as pretty conventional and dull.

 

[concernedperson]

Well, 'the kind of people' the Ramseys are, they would not have their dirt all over town, they were smart people - don't make 'em decent.

Sorry, but I don't find them decent at all. Not even particulary smart, just savvy. And kind of ugly and I need a shower.

 

[Brefie]

Lol, Cp!!

 

[tipper]

Happens all the time...sadly.

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID61/1057.html

"Let me state unequivocally that there is no such thing as the person who at age thirty-five suddenly changes from being perfectly normal and erupts into totally evil, disruptive, murderous behavior", says Robert K. Ressler, John Douglas's mentor at the FBI and the man who coined the term "serial killer". "The behaviors that are precursors to murder have been present and developing in that person's life for a long, long time - since childhood." In 90 percent of cases where women are killed by their partner, a history of physical violence can be determined. I could find none for Sam Sheppard. Further, this murder has been called a "crime of passion". But that description posits a lovers' battle. By all evidence, their marriage was one-sided. Sam lacked passion for Marilyn; he loved her as a sister. He was not jealous and controlling, the mark of spouses who kill.

 

[Brefie]

So, there is no one over the age of 35 who has ever been convicted of murder, without having a violent criminal record?

 

[concernedperson]

So, there is no one over the age of 35 who has ever been convicted of murder, without having a violent criminal record?

I think there are people under the radar. No matter what their age. It is just that the people they killed weren't importent in society.The elderly or retarded.

 

[Nehemiah]

You wrote that sadly enough, in every sexual abuse case you worked, mothers chose their husbands over their daughter. Quite shocking. Given that, would you think it possible that if one of these mothers caught her husband molesting their daughter, her rage was directed at the daughter and not at the husband in the first place? ("She seduced him").

Have you ever worked cases where the mother blamed it on the daughter?

In the cases I worked, the mothers were all very subservient and the fathers "ruled the roost" so to speak, in a dysfunctional way. I can't see any of these mothers exhibiting rage toward their daughters, except in a passive way. The mothers would usually distance themselves emotionally from the daughters. And interestingly, there was always at least one other daughter in the home, and the dads did not sexually abuse them.

I can't see Patsy intentionally showing rage enough toward JB to kill her due to sexual abuse. Not saying that it's never happened; I don't know. I just know that I never worked a case with those particular dynamics.

 

[Linda7NJ]

In the cases I worked, the mothers were all very subservient and the fathers "ruled the roost" so to speak, in a dysfunctional way. I can't see any of these mothers exhibiting rage toward their daughters, except in a passive way. The mothers would usually distance themselves emotionally from the daughters. And interestingly, there was always at least one other daughter in the home, and the dads did not sexually abuse them.

I can't see Patsy intentionally showing rage enough toward JB to kill her due to sexual abuse. Not saying that it's never happened; I don't know. I just know that I never worked a case with those particular dynamics.

In my experience, I saw a level of denial I could never comprehend. Despite overwhelming evidence many mothers simply REFUSED to believe their daughters and sided with their man. I've seen a few violently abuse their daughters as a result of disclosure.