What do the profilers say?

[tipper]

So, there is no one over the age of 35 who has ever been convicted of murder, without having a violent criminal record?

Did you read the whole quote? He said "The behaviors that are precursors to murder have been present and developing in that person's life for a long, long time - since childhood." Not that they do or don't have a criminal record. In other words you don't go from perfectly normal to murderous.

Although he is talking about spousal murder I thiink what he says probably holds true for child murders.

 

[Brefie]

Well, Scott Peterson seems to be one exception. I don't see why the Ramseys can't be another.

 

[tipper]

Well, Scott Peterson seems to be one exception. I don't see why the Ramseys can't be another.

I don't know. I didn't follow the Peterson case so I can't say anything about his childhood and background.

I did find this book on Amazon that might shed some light.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312352050/102-8439908-0163305?v=glance&n=283155

Book Description
The Scott Peterson murder case is the most gripping and highly publicized crime story of the 21st Century. It has captivated a public hungry for the answer to one question: Why would a man with no known history of violent crime or mental illness, with a pretty wife about to give birth to his son, brutally murder her?

To get "inside Peterson's head," the national media turned to forensic psychiatrist Keith Ablow, M.D. His appearances resulted in a deluge of e-mails with most stating that his theories about the spawning of a killer inside Peterson were the first that made sense to them. Members of Scott's and Laci's families have also stated that his comments were the first that helped them understand what happened inside Scott's mind.

Inside the Mind of Scott Peterson takes readers into the mind of a killer, including:
· How Scott Peterson's empathy for others was shattered by a three generation "blood line" of childhood loss and abandonment

· How Peterson came to expertly "imitate" a person, while having no true, core self

· Early signs that Peterson was losing his capacity to empathize with others

· Why an addiction to sex took root in his psyche

· Why Peterson's meeting Amber Frey while his wife was pregnant triggered the "perfect" psychological storm

· Clues to Peterson's guilt in his interviews with Gloria Gomez and Diane Sawyer

· What Peterson was probably thinking as he listened to testimony in court and received his death sentence

Why Peterson could kill again, if released.

Using contacts at the FBI, and hiring private investigators and researchers, Keith Ablow delves deeply into Scott Peterson’s life story to answer the question: How did an All American boy turn into a ruthless killer?

As the nation continues to follow the case this summer, and Peterson awaits appeal on his death sentence, Ablow's extensive psychological profile will be a window on Peterson's soul and the pathological gears turning in his mind.

 

[Nehemiah]

In my experience, I saw a level of denial I could never comprehend. Despite overwhelming evidence many mothers simply REFUSED to believe their daughters and sided with their man. I've seen a few violently abuse their daughters as a result of disclosure.

I'm glad you jumped in here, Linda. Two minds are better than one!

So right about the moms refusing to believe the daughters, and so very sick and sad. Isn't it interesting that humans are the ones who oftentimes won't protect their young?

Interesting that you've dealt with some moms who abused the daughters after disclosure. Thanks for adding your experiences.

 

[rashomon]

How do we know they were perfectly normal? Just because there is nothing recorded with any authorities does not mean it did not happen. Not to mention, we do know that JB visited the Dr. more times than is 'normal' or 'usual' for a girl her age.

Exactly. The Ramseys were never psychologically tested and evaluated.
What do we really know about their own childhood, and what shaped them?
Very little.
Ok, we know that Patsy herself was in beauty pageants too, but beyond that we know next to nothing about the inner dynamics of her own family.
And as for John, he is a completely dark horse in that respect. His childhood? His youth? Very scant info there too.

So if they appeared 'normal' on the outside to many people, this doesn't mean a thing. How often do we open the paper in the morning and have to read about family killings. And what do the neigbors usually say? "We are totally shocked. They seemed such a nice, normal family..."

And you are right, Brefie, JB's visit to the doctor were certainly above the normal frequency. And if it is true tht JB now only was a bedwetter but also had soiling incidents (encopresis), this is a very alarming sign. That poor child must have been in deep trouble.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

So right about the moms refusing to believe the daughters, and so very sick and sad. Isn't it interesting that humans are the ones who oftentimes won't protect their young?

Interesting that you've dealt with some moms who abused the daughters after disclosure. Thanks for adding your experiences.

So irrelevant about moms refusing to believe their daughters, as this doesn't apply to JBR at all. IMO any cases of this are going to involve older girls, not a 6 year old.

 

[Linda7NJ]

So irrelevant about moms refusing to believe their daughters, as this doesn't apply to JBR at all. IMO any cases of this are going to involve older girls, not a 6 year old.

Don't kid yourself.

 

[Brefie]

So irrelevant about moms refusing to believe their daughters, as this doesn't apply to JBR at all. IMO any cases of this are going to involve older girls, not a 6 year old.

Jeez........say it ain't so......

 

[rashomon]

I'm glad you jumped in here, Linda. Two minds are better than one!

So right about the moms refusing to believe the daughters, and so very sick and sad. Isn't it interesting that humans are the ones who oftentimes won't protect their young?

Interesting that you've dealt with some moms who abused the daughters after disclosure. Thanks for adding your experiences.

Thanks so much, Nehemiah and Linda, for your input. This was very helpful.

 

[UKGuy]

So putting aside who may have known, who should be to blame, who may have done it, etc.

Do you think JonBenet can be profiled as being a victim of prior sexual abuse?

Or was she simply a child who had some normal childhood ailments, was slow to become disciplined in hygiene issues, and periodically regressed?

This feature of the case is just as important as considering whether you are pro or anti Ramsey, since JonBenet's victim profile, changes from an innocent girl, secure within her family-house to that of being a child at risk!

 

[rashomon]

So putting aside who may have known, who should be to blame, who may have done it, etc.

Do you think JonBenet can be profiled as being a victim of prior sexual abuse?

Or was she simply a child who had some normal childhood ailments, was slow to become disciplined in hygiene issues, and periodically regressed?

This feature of the case is just as important as considering whether you are pro or anti Ramsey, since JonBenet's victim profile, changes from an innocent girl, secure within her family-house to that of being a child at risk!

I'm no social worker, but I am a kindergarten teacher and therefore can rely on some private statisctics too. As it seems , JB was not only a chronic bedwetter, but also had encopresis. (soiling incidents).
It is highly unusual for a child of JB's age to suffer from encopresis. Remember that this was not a three-year-old in the last stages of toilet training, but a six year-old. JB's having encopresis should raise a thousand red flags.
That child must have been in deep deep trouble. Nothing seems 'normal' here.

Question to the other posters: I read somewhere that chronically abused children sometimes soil themselves in order to make themselves unattractive to the abuser. Does anyone know more about this?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I'm no social worker, but I am a kindergarten teacher and therefore can rely on some private statisctics too. As it seems , JB was not only a chronic bedwetter, but also had encopresis. (soiling incidents).
It is highly unusual for a child of JB's age to suffer from encopresis. Remember that this was not a three-year-old in the last stages of toilet training, but a six year-old. JB's having encopresis should raise a thousand red flags.
That child must have been in deep deep trouble. Nothing seems 'normal' here.

Question to the other posters: I read somewhere that chronically abused children sometimes soil themselves in order to make themselves unattractive to the abuser. Does anyone know more about this?

Who says JBR had encowhatever? An MD or a psychologist? Or is this just more crass speculation?:clap:

 

[tipper]

Who says JBR had encowhatever? An MD or a psychologist? Or is this just more crass speculation?:clap:

That's from LHP. She said it was the size of a grapefruit.

Added: Since we know Patsy mentioned the bedwetting to Beuf, one would think she would have mentioned encopresis too. If the story were true...

 

[narlacat]

So putting aside who may have known, who should be to blame, who may have done it, etc.

Do you think JonBenet can be profiled as being a victim of prior sexual abuse?

Or was she simply a child who had some normal childhood ailments, was slow to become disciplined in hygiene issues, and periodically regressed?

This feature of the case is just as important as considering whether you are pro or anti Ramsey, since JonBenet's victim profile, changes from an innocent girl, secure within her family-house to that of being a child at risk!

I have posted before about my child and his problem with his bowel and see a similiarity between what I have read concerning JonBenet's 'dirtying' and my little boy.
After being toilet trained by the age of three, I found him hiding behind a door one day with poo in his pants at age 4 1/2. All over him in fact. I couldnt understand it, he was already toilet trained, why would he poo his pants and my god, what a mess!
I went to a doctor who told me this. From not going to the toilet when the first urge is felt and by hanging onto it, eventually little bits get caught right up the top of the rectum and cause the trigger (the urge to go) to not work.
The doctor said this is quite common in little kids who are too busy playing or whatever it is they are doing, to stop and go to the toilet.
They end up with a stretched/lazy bowel.
It is an on going problem that requires my diligence with diet and toilet timing.

Maybe JonBenet had the same problem, she certainly was a busy little girl who was always on the go.
It could be that her bedwetting and regression in toilet training, were due to Patsy's illness with the cancer and her not being available.
Could be.
I look at the way that little girl ended up and I find it hard to believe that something more sinister than normal childhood ailments wasn't the cause for her toileting issues.

 

[Linda7NJ]

So putting aside who may have known, who should be to blame, who may have done it, etc.

Do you think JonBenet can be profiled as being a victim of prior sexual abuse?

Or was she simply a child who had some normal childhood ailments, was slow to become disciplined in hygiene issues, and periodically regressed?

This feature of the case is just as important as considering whether you are pro or anti Ramsey, since JonBenet's victim profile, changes from an innocent girl, secure within her family-house to that of being a child at risk!

I think JonBenet was more likely than not a victim of recent ongoing sexual abuse. However, there is not enough evidence to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Everything COULD have a perfectly logical unrelated cause. Without a victim interview I am afraid it's all just a reasonable guess.

 

[UKGuy]

I have posted before about my child and his problem with his bowel and see a similiarity between what I have read concerning JonBenet's 'dirtying' and my little boy.
After being toilet trained by the age of three, I found him hiding behind a door one day with poo in his pants at age 4 1/2. All over him in fact. I couldnt understand it, he was already toilet trained, why would he poo his pants and my god, what a mess!
I went to a doctor who told me this. From not going to the toilet when the first urge is felt and by hanging onto it, eventually little bits get caught right up the top of the rectum and cause the trigger (the urge to go) to not work.
The doctor said this is quite common in little kids who are too busy playing or whatever it is they are doing, to stop and go to the toilet.
They end up with a stretched/lazy bowel.
It is an on going problem that requires my diligence with diet and toilet timing.

Maybe JonBenet had the same problem, she certainly was a busy little girl who was always on the go.
It could be that her bedwetting and regression in toilet training, were due to Patsy's illness with the cancer and her not being available.
Could be.
I look at the way that little girl ended up and I find it hard to believe that something more sinister than normal childhood ailments wasn't the cause for her toileting issues.

narlacat,
Yes I can relate to your experience with your little boy, since my younger brother wet the bed regularly, until he was 8 or 9. He was given rubber sheets, pills, and various medications. It caused a lot of stress and anxiety for my mother, it was not talked about a great deal, then it all stopped!

So although JonBenet's bedwetting/soiling etc may not be viewed as normal, they are not wholly unusual.

Knowing this does not does not preclude sexual abuse, since there is still the possibility that her regressive behaviour, is independent from her abuse, and that the latter was the more recent, this is why I take issue with those that use terminology such as chronic sexual abuse.


.

 

[UKGuy]

I think JonBenet was more likely than not a victim of recent ongoing sexual abuse. However, there is not enough evidence to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Everything COULD have a perfectly logical unrelated cause. Without a victim interview I am afraid it's all just a reasonable guess.

Yes I tend to agree with you. There are some medical reports that state she had an enlarged hymen, that some or most of this tissue was missing, and that these were not a consequence of her being sexual assaulted when she was killed.


This if correct suggests prior to the time she was killed that someone had molested her?


Or do you feel that this may also have an innocent explanation?


.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Yes I tend to agree with you. There are some medical reports that state she had an enlarged hymen, that some or most of this tissue was missing, and that these were not a consequence of her being sexual assaulted when she was killed.


This if correct suggests prior to the time she was killed that someone had molested her?


Or do you feel that this may also have an innocent explanation?


.

Can also be innocent....there are three distinct normal hymen presentations:

"Here we have what I referred to before as a posterior rim hymen, you can call it a U-shaped hymen, it doesn't’t matter, the idea is to be aware that in this type of hymen anteriorly it will blend with the vaginal wall, so your posteriorly is the only area where you expect to find tissue. I have seen some evaluations where evaluators have called this as hymen absent in the anterior half and regarded it as a sign of sexual abuse. That is not the case, this is just how this type of hymen happens to look. Here is the edge, and we will be looking for trauma posteriorly if it does occur. The vaginal mucosa is very easily visualized with this type of hymen, so the fact that you can see vaginal mucosa."

http://www.ccspublishing.com/journals5a/child_sexual_abuse.htm

 

[UKGuy]

Can also be innocent....there are three distinct normal hymen presentations:

"Here we have what I referred to before as a posterior rim hymen, you can call it a U-shaped hymen, it doesn't’t matter, the idea is to be aware that in this type of hymen anteriorly it will blend with the vaginal wall, so your posteriorly is the only area where you expect to find tissue. I have seen some evaluations where evaluators have called this as hymen absent in the anterior half and regarded it as a sign of sexual abuse. That is not the case, this is just how this type of hymen happens to look. Here is the edge, and we will be looking for trauma posteriorly if it does occur. The vaginal mucosa is very easily visualized with this type of hymen, so the fact that you can see vaginal mucosa."

http://www.ccspublishing.com/journals5a/child_sexual_abuse.htm

Linda7NJ,

Well took a look but just saw text, no images, so I will accept what you saying is that it may be natural?

.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Linda7NJ,

Well took a look but just saw text, no images, so I will accept what you saying is that it may be natural?

.

Yes, and any good defense lawyer would have no problem finding respected experts to say so.