Australia - Russell Hill & Carol Clay Murdered While Camping - Wonnangatta Valley, 2020 #7

[JudgeJudi]

I remember reading an article the other day that mentioned that the police who originally visited the site did not take care not to disturb the scene as at that stage there wasn’t reason to believe that Russell and Carol had been killed. I think it’s definitely possible that there are things that were missed but it also sounds like Lynn did as much as he could to ensure the evidence was gone when he left.

I find this take to be quite at odds with how evidence works in a criminal trial.

Why should Lynns story be believed by the Jury? If they don't believe it, the only natural and obvious inference is he murdered them - based on all the evidence.

I don't think the defence is anywhere close to establishing reasonable doubt but who knows.

MOO

SMH (paywall) (published 2 hours ago)

Prosecutors say it’s impossible that Gregory Lynn is innocent of murdering missing campers Russell Hill and Carol Clay.
Latest and Breaking News | The Sydney Morning Herald Live Australian and World News Feed

Here's hoping a unanimous jury agrees.

 

[SouthAussie]

Murder or mishap? How a jury will assess the deaths

Prosecutors say it’s impossible that Gregory Lynn is innocent of murdering missing campers Russell Hill and Carol Clay.

www.smh.com.au

Mentions a rope is a reason why Police say it can't have happened the way GL said it did.

Behind a paywall, I think. Posting it here for those who subscribe.

He says he used Jetstar branded gloves when cleaning the crime scene. Bet Jetstar loves that association.

There is a really good pic of Russell's vehicle with the guy rope attached to the portable toilet tent. Goes from the middle of the top bar on the bullbar to higher up on the loo tent. Maybe waist height (bullbar) to neck height (loo tent) for the average person, at a guess. Would definitely have had to duck under it to go that way. imo

 

[JBowie]

There is a really good pic of Russell's vehicle with the guy rope attached to the portable toilet tent. Goes from the middle of the top bar on the bullbar to higher up on the loo tent. Maybe waist height (bullbar) to neck height (loo tent) for the average person, at a guess. Would definitely have had to duck under it to go that way. imo

“I didn’t see [the rope],” Lynn said.

Me: Oops! That's because you were nowhere near the front of Hill's vehicle.

 

[JudgeJudi]

He explained that away as well. The side mirror had shattered and he wanted it gone so he tried removing it himself and couldn’t…..then he thought he used a rock to smash it off. The reason being he didn’t want any memories of what happened !!

There could be another possible explanation. We don't know how the mirror became shattered. Maybe it could place RH standing next to the mirror and GL's explanation as to how RH died wouldn't fit his version.

I'm looking forward to closing arguments and am hopeful the jury bring in a guilty verdict.

 

[SouthAussie]

“I didn’t see [the rope],” Lynn said.

Me: Oops! That's because you were nowhere near the front of Hill's vehicle.

I also read in one of the articles that Lynn said Russell must have lifted up the guy rope. There is no way you could lift that guy rope. It is taut in the photo.

Thank goodness the jury will have seen that photo, and can visibly see his lies.

imo

 

[JudgeJudi]

The only reason that he burned them so thoroughly, chucking extra wood on the fire when the fire died down, making sure they were obliterated, was to cover up the fact that he murdered them.

Russell probably wasn't even stabbed. He was probably shot too.

imo

I agree.

IMO it's quite possible he shot RH, and that's how the mirror shattered. According to him, RH fell on a knife that pierced his chest, so they must have been facing each other. If during the supposed struggle RH fell backwards and fell against the mirror, that wouldn't have shattered it, but a bullet certainly would have and the glass may have shown that a bullet hit it. I think this is just another of his monstrous lies.

He's said to be highly intelligent and calm under pressure. He's had a years to concoct his terrible story and consider every angle.

 

[SouthAussie]

I agree.

IMO it's quite possible he shot RH, and that's how the mirror shattered. According to him, RH fell on a knife that pierced his chest, so they must have been facing each other. If during the supposed struggle RH fell backwards and fell against the mirror, that wouldn't have shattered it, but a bullet certainly would have. I think this is just another of his monstrous lies.

He's said to be highly intelligent and calm under pressure. He's had a years to concoct his terrible story and consider every angle.

What a twist of fate that the knife "pierced Russell in the heart area".

Nature designed our ribs to support and protect our vital organs. Yet Russell fell in such a way that the knife was turned around and it went right between his ribs, into his heart area, deep enough to kill him. And kill him quickly.

So quickly that Lynn was able to clean up that entire crime scene, all the blood and gore, throw (almost) everything into the tent, get an inflammable tent burning wildly, rifle through their wallets and steal money, pack up his own campsite, load two heavy deceased people into his trailer, cover the trailer very well so that the tarp didn't blow off while driving, and be trying to turn his vehicle around at a closed river crossing on the Wonnangatta Track by midnight.

 

[AussieIan]

As writer and director of his own fiction movie, of course he does.

The police know that 2 people are dead and GL by his own admission was involved, as to how, why, or when the prosecutions case is fiction as well.

 

[AussieIan]

Trigger pull on Lynn’s gun - 3.947kg

I have an adjustable wrist squeezer thing that goes 5-40kg. Will have a squeeze with 1 finger when I get home but I suspect it will feel fairly light, 40kg isn't that hard to close.

@SouthAussie for arguments sake, 4kg might be higher end for a trigger pull as its supposed to be fired...but if u stick a finger through the trigger guard it wouldn't take much to knock it and generate 4kg of force. 4kg of force can be generated very easily say, if you were yanking your arms back.... as if you were trying to get a firearm off someone.

Both fellas were 100kg+ yeh?

 

[JBowie]

load two heavy deceased people into his trailer, cover the trailer very well so that the tarp didn't blow off while driving,

I have wondered about that in light of his being a deer hunter. What does he do with shot deer carcasses? Does he skin and butcher them onsite, burying/incinerating the offal, or load them onto his trailer and deliver them to a butcher?

Seems to me that he'd be handy with a knife and strong enough to manhandle a heavy beast onto a trailer.

 

[JBowie]

The police know that 2 people are dead and GL by his own admission was involved, as to how, why, or when the prosecutions case is fiction as well.

And hopefully the jury will believe the most likely version and, for my money, it sure ain't Lynn's.

 

[AussieIan]

What a twist of fate that the knife "pierced Russell in the heart area".

Nature designed our ribs to support and protect our vital organs. Yet Russell fell in such a way that the knife was turned around and it went right between his ribs, into his heart area, deep enough to kill him. And kill him quickly.

These arguments don't make much sense to me, I agree it's uncommon and unlucky but far from impossible as I outlined in a previous post.

People get knocked out and hit their head on concrete all the time, every now and then 1 dies. Why? Skull is designed to protect too. Sometimes the unlikely happens and I don't think you can assign guilt based on it merely being unlikely.

 

[SouthAussie]

These arguments don't make much sense to me, I agree it's uncommon and unlucky but far from impossible as I outlined in a previous post.

People get knocked out and hit their head on concrete all the time, every now and then 1 dies. Why? Skull is designed to protect too. Sometimes the unlikely happens and I don't think you can assign guilt based on it merely being unlikely.

Add to that the unluckiness of Carol being shot in the head.

 

[Bats]

I have an adjustable wrist squeezer thing that goes 5-40kg. Will have a squeeze with 1 finger when I get home but I suspect it will feel fairly light, 40kg isn't that hard to close.

@SouthAussie for arguments sake, 4kg might be higher end for a trigger pull as its supposed to be fired...but if u stick a finger through the trigger guard it wouldn't take much to knock it and generate 4kg of force. 4kg of force can be generated very easily say, if you were yanking your arms back.... as if you were trying to get a firearm off someone.

Both fellas were 100kg+ yeh?

The guy rope being at waist or neck height just makes it even more likely it may have been removed, perhaps for carol at night so she didn't walk into it.

Ok, so hypothetically it does't take much to pull the trigger, if in fact two people are wrestling over the gun. This is Lynn’s story remember...

The gun's barrel could be pointing anywhere in a 360 degree angle horizontally and anywhere in a 360 degree angle vertically. That's 129,600 degrees.

But lo and behold, the projectile has also ricocheted off the side mirror from one of those angles and has hit Carol in the head.

All this if you're fine to believe Russell got comfortable enough with the firearm that he's never layed his hands on before to attach a loaded magazine, c@ck the gun, released the safety and fires a couple of warning rounds in the air, in relative darkness, whilst he had his loved female companion with him and for the reason that he is against people shooting deer too close to the campsite....ok, if you think that's the truth .... let's move on to him running at Lynn with a knife after all this has happened.. . Let's not. It's complete bulldust. The whole story

 

[MIG214222]

I also read in one of the articles that Lynn said Russell must have lifted up the guy rope.

Thank you @SouthAussie!

I also recollect that being said, what I found OFF-THE-PLANET was/is the perps claim that as the struggle was happening - the guy rope never got in the way.

Ref: As it happened: What accused killer Gregory Lynn told the jury about missing campers’ deaths - may be paywalled for some.

MOO
Thinking of the Hill & Clay families & loved ones & wishing them strength.

 

[MIG214222]

dbm, duplicate

 

[discostu]

I don’t believe that Russell loaded the gun himself.. that honestly sounds preposterous to me and doesn’t make any sense. And I definitely don’t believe that he purposely shot it into the air, that sounds incredibly careless for someone so concerned with gun safety.

imo either Lynn was storing the loaded weapon insecurely in an open vehicle, or it didn’t go down the way he’s suggested at all.

JMO

 

[TootsieFootsie]

A camping trip turned fatal: as the trial of Greg Lynn draws to a close, key questions remain

Victoria’s supreme court has heard disputed accounts of what happened in the Wonnangatta Valley deaths of Russell Hill and Carol Clay

www.theguardian.com

A camping trip turned fatal: as the trial of Greg Lynn draws to a close, key questions remain​

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Pilot admits lying to wife about deaths | Brimbank & North West

Accused Caroline Springs double murderer Greg Lynn has admitted lying to his wife about his involvement in the deaths of …

brimbanknorthwest.starweekly.com.au

 

[AussieIan]

It was a heavy trigger pull. Heavier than that weapon usually has. I posted the testimony further back. Will find it again and add it to this post.


It would be difficult for a gun linked to the deaths of campers Russell Hill and Carol Clay to go off accidentally, a forensic police officer has told a double-murder trial.

Griffiths undertook testing on the 12-gauge Barathrum Arms shotgun, taken from Lynn’s home, including a safety function test and trigger pull test, the court heard. A trigger pull test measures the amount of force that has to be applied to the trigger to fire a shot.

Lynn’s trigger pull was 3.9 kilograms, slightly above the industry standard of between 1.8kg and 3.6kg.

“Being higher means [having] to pull [the] trigger harder to discharge the gun,” Griffiths told the court on Tuesday.
Link

I just tested my grip trainer at 5kg with trigger finger and its extremely easy to pull. I'm sure it makes a difference for competition shooting but I think in the proposed scenario it wouldn't have mattered it it was 1kg or 10kg of pressure. Those fellas would be exerting far far more than 4kg of pressure in every move while fighting over a gun, either of them could have hit that trigger while moving.

Ok, so hypothetically it does't take much to pull the trigger, if in fact two people are wrestling over the gun. This is Lynn’s story remember...

The gun's barrel could be pointing anywhere in a 360 degree angle horizontally and anywhere in a 360 degree angle vertically. That's 129,600 degrees.

But lo and behold, the projectile has also ricocheted off the side mirror from one of those angles and has hit Carol in the head.

All this if you're fine to believe Russell got comfortable enough with the firearm that he's never layed his hands on before to attach a loaded magazine, c@ck the gun, released the safety and fires a couple of warning rounds in the air, in relative darkness, whilst he had his loved female companion with him and for the reason that he is against people shooting deer too close to the campsite....ok, if you think that's the truth .... let's move on to him running at Lynn with a knife after all this has happened.. . Let's not. It's complete bulldust. The whole story

Absolutely and It would be extremely unfortunate for anyone to be in the way, but far from impossible and the gun doesn't have that many angles, there are 2 bodies on each side who are wrestling it to be pointed anywhere but them, they'd be pointing it in the air or to their left or right and a long firearm like that the barrel will likely be pointing left or right and remain pointing in that direction as they wrestle, its not going to swap from 1 side to the other.

Russell grabbing the gun is the strange part for me, IF it is true he may have been so concerned with Lynns shooting he took it for his and Carols own safety.

Only other way I see Russell deciding to take the firearm is if Lynn was extremely drunk. With whatever passed between them he may have decided Lynn was a danger and so he wanted to remove what he may have thought was the only firearm. Has MotoMike commented about GLs claim?

Him charging Lynn with a knife after Carol is shot is actually the most believable part for me. He'd known Carol since before he met his wife. He would be absolutely wild with grief, rage, loss, madness, disbelief. I can't imagine how surreal it must have seemed for him.