Australia - Russell Hill & Carol Clay Murdered While Camping - Wonnangatta Valley, 2020 #7

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AussieIan said:
Purely the fight sequence of events? I think so yes.

2 guys get into a fight. A firearm they are grappling over discharges. It hits an innocent bystander. The bystanders partner attacks the shooter. During the struggle they're killed. It's a logical sequence of events.

After Carol was killed RH and GL both had reason to think they had to kill to survive, Hill could reasonably think he will be next, Lynn could fear that he would be killed in retaliation.

What I'm not convinced Lynn is being truthful about is what lead to the fighting turning physical.


If I wanted to put forth the theory I believe most likely, I would say Lynn was very drunk, very annoyed with Russell and went to RH campsite with his shotgun in a drunken attempt to intimidate, or show his 'manhood'/toughness but with no intention of causing harm. Scaring people can make you feel powerful and Im sure Lynn liked feeling powerful. Perhaps he felt like it would 'teach them a lesson' for threatening him when they saw him with his BIG gun. :rolleyes:

Talking to someone angry and very intoxicated while you're calm and sober often goes 1 of 2 ways.

Either Russell kept calm and sensible for some time, but at some point has got fed up with repeating himself because talking to someone extremely intoxicated is like talking to a brick wall and having judged Lynn as all bark no bite has told him to F Off back to his campsite, which lead to Lynn feeling like he had to remind Russell he was Billy Badass in this campsite so fired shots in the air, that's alarmed Russell and he's gone to grab the gun.

or 2nd way is Russell engaged passively, never escalated, but Lynn kept working himself up and up until he was enraged, stomping around and screaming, perhaps pacing back and forth, venting all his frustration and how better to vent rage than to shoot in the air, at that point Russell would understandably be very concerned and I could understand him making a grab for the weapon, or Russell has said something about Lynn firing shots in the air and Lynn got in his face to say 'what are you gonna do old man' and Russell was concerned enough to feel the need to try and disarm him.




There are a few reasons I think alcohol was likely a factor:

1 IIRC in one of the airline pilot forums soon after his arrest a couple of members talked about him drinking heavily.

2 He has been accused by previous partners and their family of domestic violence, while he was not convicted, the majority of domestic violence is linked with alcohol abuse by the perpetrator.

3 When he was arrested I remember them stating he had said things which concerned them and Lynn was talking about alcohol or getting drunk at camp.

4 I've spent 5 nights a week for years watching drunk people interact like this and Lynn almost perfectly fits the profile of a type who often behave as I described above.


If anyone can remember that airline forum would be great. It had some kind of weird name. With a 9 in it?
Click to expand...
PPRuNE is a popular forum amongst Pilots …. Not sure about the one with a 9 in it.
 
TootsieFootsie said:
www.abc.net.au

Greg Lynn's reality surpasses The Truman Show, as he testifies in his own murder trial

Greg Lynn told police his life felt like a Hollywood movie. This week, it played out like one as the accused killer stepped up to the witness box and defended himself in the Supreme Court of Victoria.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au

After he covered up the deaths of two people, Mr Lynn felt like he was being watched. Strangers seemed overly friendly and appeared to have ulterior motives. The paranoia had set in, Mr Lynn told detectives, because "everyone knows what's going on and you don't".

This week, Mr Lynn did something even The Truman Show's creators hadn't dreamt up for their protagonist — he got to testify in his own double-murder trial.

During three-and-a-half hours in the Supreme Court witness box, Mr Lynn said he was introduced to guns by his father as a 16-year-old; he'd spent time working as an asparagus picker and Tasmanian river guide; and during his piloting career he used Jetstar-issued gloves to clean up his planes.

"Most of the pilots just take off and leave the cabin crew to do that," Mr Lynn said, "but I always grab some gloves, go through, help them clean up".
Click to expand...
Hmm crew would normally go into the briefing room for the next flight to collect paperwork/weather etc…..or if they were changing A/C they would be going thru their checks in the Flight Deck. If the A/C was terminating the cleaners would come on. and complete.
 
SouthAussie said:
So, his one and only lie is that he hadn't been drinking?

Lynn said he had not been drinking alcohol on the night of the deaths and that he did not witness Hill drinking. Link

I agree that people can do nutty things when they are drunk.

BTW I appreciate your input, I just don't agree that is the way that things went down. I think Russell was more of an old school fist person than a weapons person. And I think Lynn shot them both, so he 'had to' burn their bodies for his story to have any validity.
Click to expand...

No, I think he's lying about Russell removing the firearm from his truck to change the power dynamic to him being unarmed and Russell being the armed one. The best liars speak mostly the truth, especially if they only need to lie about 1 part of the story. I think he's told the truth about the fights and deaths and decided to remove the part where he's responsible for instigating it by approaching their camp with a firearm.

It's easier to come across open and honest when you're being....open and honest... the more you can give that impression, the harder it is for people to pick the details you do decide to change, especially if they don't have much evidence...

I don't think Lynn approached the camp with murderous intent but as we've all heard, play stupid games...
 
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AussieIan said:
No, I think he's lying about Russell removing the firearm from his truck to change the power dynamic to him being unarmed and Russell being the armed one. The best liars speak mostly the truth, especially if they only need to lie about 1 part of the story. I think he's told the truth about the fights and deaths and decided to remove the part where he's responsible for instigating it by approaching their camp with a firearm.

It's easier to come across open and honest when you're being....open and honest... the more you can give that impression, the harder it is for people to pick the details you do decide to change, especially if they don't have much evidence...

I don't think Lynn approached the camp with murderous intent but as we've all heard, play stupid games...
Click to expand...
IMO Lynn’s story is 90% BS. He has only told the truth about stuff that can be proven.

When he is found guilty of 2 counts of murder and more information is released, another can of worms will be opened on what he has been up to in the past IMO.

This guy is a weird cat for sure.
 
Russell had owned two firearms in the past that had originally been his father's. He never obtained a gun licence of his own and eventually handed them to authorities during a gun amnesty. The prosecutor said it is not known how RH was killed so we only have the defence's version at the moment.

The case for the defence
Lynn went hunting, and when he returned to Bucks Camp he became aware of a drone flying above him and had concerns about it. In turn, RH had concerns about GL and thought that he’d been hunting too close to where they were all camping as a deer hunter had accidentally killed one of his relatives. He told GL that he was going to take the drone footage to police. GL had dinner, then went to the car and turned the stereo on up high, with the car door open to annoy RH.

At about 9 or 10pm, GL said he became aware of some noise around his own car. He then saw RH walking away from the car with his gun and a magazine of ammunition. He started to follow him and saw him trying to load the magazine. He asked him to give his gun back but RH said he was going to take the gun to the police also. As GL went towards RH to retrieve his gun, RH fired it into the air.

[This article says GL “approached Mr Hill, who was standing outside of his tent, after he had taken his shotgun to demand he give it back". He said RH fired a shot into the air, causing GL to “bolt for the shadow. He fired at least a second shot I don’t know where that went. He may have fired a third time, I distinctly remember two”.]

[It’s quite possible that multiple shots were fired by GL and that he shot the drone down and things escalated from that point. The gun may still have been loaded as he'd been hunting]

A struggle then ensued for control of the gun near the front of RH’s car during which a shot went through the mirror and struck CC in the head. RH then let go of the gun and went over to see where CC was.

Dann said GL got his gun back and returned to the car before RH came towards him with a knife, screaming at him, ‘She’s dead.’ They then struggled over the knife, both men fell to the ground and the knife went into RH’s chest.

Struggle over gun led to missing campers’ accidental deaths: defence

If you believe his version, pigs might fly.
 
JudgeJudi said:
Russell had owned two firearms in the past that had originally been his father's. He never obtained a gun licence of his own and eventually handed them to authorities during a gun amnesty. The prosecutor said it is not known how RH was killed so we only have the defence's version at the moment.

The case for the defence
Lynn went hunting, and when he returned to Bucks Camp he became aware of a drone flying above him and had concerns about it. In turn, RH had concerns about GL and thought that he’d been hunting too close to where they were all camping as a deer hunter had accidentally killed one of his relatives. He told GL that he was going to take the drone footage to police. GL had dinner, then went to the car and turned the stereo on up high, with the car door open to annoy RH.

At about 9 or 10pm, GL said he became aware of some noise around his own car. He then saw RH walking away from the car with his gun and a magazine of ammunition. He started to follow him and saw him trying to load the magazine. He asked him to give his gun back but RH said he was going to take the gun to the police also. As GL went towards RH to retrieve his gun, RH fired it into the air.

[This article says GL “approached Mr Hill, who was standing outside of his tent, after he had taken his shotgun to demand he give it back". He said RH fired a shot into the air, causing GL to “bolt for the shadow. He fired at least a second shot I don’t know where that went. He may have fired a third time, I distinctly remember two”.]

[It’s quite possible that multiple shots were fired by GL and that he shot the drone down and things escalated from that point. The gun may still have been loaded as he'd been hunting]

A struggle then ensued for control of the gun near the front of RH’s car during which a shot went through the mirror and struck CC in the head. RH then let go of the gun and went over to see where CC was.

Dann said GL got his gun back and returned to the car before RH came towards him with a knife, screaming at him, ‘She’s dead.’ They then struggled over the knife, both men fell to the ground and the knife went into RH’s chest.

Struggle over gun led to missing campers’ accidental deaths: defence

If you believe his version, pigs might fly.
Click to expand...
I don't think it is about believing his story, is it not more about unravelling the sequence to catch the lies?
 
Doesitmakesense said:
I wonder if LE were able to replicate a bullet ricocheting as described by GL, or at all.
Click to expand...

I can see why they doubt his ricochet story.

Lynn said he burned the grass where Carol was killed, due to the blood. The burned grass is behind the mirror, at the side of the vehicle.

I am not sure how they would have been at the front of the vehicle, and a ricochet off the back of the mirror could kill Carol. AFAIK a ricochet means bouncing off something and reverberating back.

a.jpg

www.abc.net.au

Mystery deepens over missing pair as campsite found burnt out with working vehicle

Victorian police try to work out why Russell Hill, 74, and Carol Clay, 73, abandoned their well-equipped vehicle, and want to know who lit a fire at their campsite and who extinguished it.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
 
If we accept that Lynn is guilty, what do we think is motive? Psychopathy? Narcissism?? I'm thinking "narcissistic" rage over being called to task by Hill, and the very real possibibilty of losing everything.I think Clay was cold blooded murder as she went for the radio.Psychopathy.
 
timezone said:
If we accept that Lynn is guilty, what do we think is motive? Psychopathy? Narcissism?? I'm thinking "narcissistic" rage over being called to task by Hill, and the very real possibibilty of losing everything.I think Clay was cold blooded murder as she went for the radio.Psychopathy.
Click to expand...

Going by what we think occurred, here are my thoughts on Lynn's feelings and reactions:

Buzzed by Hill's drone (annoyed)

Being told that he was shooting too close to camp (angry/indignant)

Hill described as not a person to back-off (challenged/threatened)

Pushed past his tolerance level (retaliate forcefully)
 
The part I found most interesting from the other article in my post above is "He said RH fired a shot into the air ... He fired at least a second shot I don’t know where that went. He may have fired a third time, I distinctly remember two”.
[So we have an admission that at least 2, possibly 3 shots were fired.]

Porceddu accused GL of firing several shots at CC, later telling police there were shots fired into the air as a “cover” for if others had heard.
Dann, interjected, saying it was “improper” for the prosecution to make up a version of events “in desperation”.
The Judge agreed, saying the prosecution was “inventing” an account without evidence.

Where's the evidence to support any of GL's account of how they were killed? There's none because IMO he invented it all. GL said his gun was secured in a zipped bag, the doors were locked, but he unlocked his car when he chose to blare music to annoy RH. How very convenient. He needed an excuse as to how RH got his gun.

I feel like I'm on a mission with this case.
 
In this article from The Age (dated 4/12/21) the following things are said about Lynn.

(paraphrased)

People who know him said:
Extremely bitter about being passed up by the RAAF in their alpha stream selection to be an elite pilot flying fighter jets, so he left the RAAF
Self-sufficient, self-absorbed, self-contained
A narcissist with an obsessive eye for detail
A proficient pilot, highly intelligent, calm under pressure
An Ansett first officer said he was a bit of a weird fish
Cabin crews liked him

His first wife's family:
He was a dominating figure behind closed doors
One of them contacted the police with (unproven) allegations of family violence
His first wife was said to have committed suicide with alcohol and drugs - the police had quietly asked for her file while they were investigating Lynn

www.theage.com.au

Loner, pilot, barbecue-lover - mystery swirls around accused killer

The detectives who spoke to Greg Lynn about missing campers Carol Clay and Russell Hill last month had never met him, but they had already built a psychological profile of the suspect.
www.theage.com.au www.theage.com.au
 
JudgeJudi said:
The part I found most interesting from the other article in my post above is "He said RH fired a shot into the air ... He fired at least a second shot I don’t know where that went. He may have fired a third time, I distinctly remember two”.
[So we have an admission that at least 2, possibly 3 shots were fired.]

Porceddu accused GL of firing several shots at CC, later telling police there were shots fired into the air as a “cover” for if others had heard.
Dann, interjected, saying it was “improper” for the prosecution to make up a version of events “in desperation”.
The Judge agreed, saying the prosecution was “inventing” an account without evidence.

Where's the evidence to support any of GL's account of how they were killed? There's none because IMO he invented it all. GL said his gun was secured in a zipped bag, the doors were locked, but he unlocked his car when he chose to blare music to annoy RH. How very convenient. He needed an excuse as to how RH got his gun.

I feel like I'm on a mission with this case.
Click to expand...
.... I can't recall any police evidence regarding Lynn's campsite. It is clear that there is a lot of truth in Lynn's sequence of events, however, the open doors and loud music seemed like a construct to me, in order to place the gun in Hill's hands.
Listening to Lynn speak, To me, it seems that while he is cool & collected, he is also very much used to being in control.
Is it possible that he returned to camp site after Hill's radio talk around 6:00pm , the drone event took place ... then he,
a man holding a gun, a man who was revered in his job, used to being in charge was unable to budge a beligerant old guy with a drone, who was as we know intent upon reporting to police.?? Lynn's story of why he destroyed evidence,is also the very reason he reacted with rage . Shot or two for the drone, stuggle with Hill at Hill's campsite,,, Clay goes for the radio .. and the rest is history.
I believe the prosecution relied too heavily on the lyn's story being preposterous, without meticulously undoing it... although not so easy when the evidence has been destroyed. Nb.. the prosecution did provide the guy rope & torch, which should be of use to jury.
 
timezone said:
.... I can't recall any police evidence regarding Lynn's campsite. It is clear that there is a lot of truth in Lynn's sequence of events, however, the open doors and loud music seemed like a construct to me, in order to place the gun in Hill's hands.
Listening to Lynn speak, To me, it seems that while he is cool & collected, he is also very much used to being in control.
Is it possible that he returned to camp site after Hill's radio talk around 6:00pm , the drone event took place ... then he,
a man holding a gun, a man who was revered in his job, used to being in charge was unable to budge a beligerant old guy with a drone, who was as we know intent upon reporting to police.?? Lynn's story of why he destroyed evidence,is also the very reason he reacted with rage . Shot or two for the drone, stuggle with Hill at Hill's campsite,,, Clay goes for the radio .. and the rest is history.
I believe the prosecution relied too heavily on the lyn's story being preposterous, without meticulously undoing it... although not so easy when the evidence has been destroyed. Nb.. the prosecution did provide the guy rope & torch, which should be of use to jury.
Click to expand...
It would be quite difficult to shoot a drone with shotgun slugs. They aren't terribly accurate.

Now, a shotgun full of buckshot is a different matter entirely. In fact, it's now becoming SOP to take drones out with this method in Ukraine.

Do we know if the accused was carrying buckshot?
 
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