Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #186

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I wonder if the 3 phones on the "crime scene" that I think it's most likely the bridge were 3 girls, Ch and two other friends. From what I remember, she said she was at the bridge at 3:00 pm with two friends. She and the friends crossed the bridge until the south end and then returned.

It could easily be. We don't know what this chart was a response to.

But for example, LE might have gone back and then asked for all the records for those 3 phones - and then they might have the complete location data for those phones for the day. It's really that info that is much more significant

IMO
 
It could easily be. We don't know what this chart was a response to.

But for example, LE might have gone back and then asked for all the records for those 3 phones - and then they might have the complete location data for those phones for the day. It's really that info that is much more significant

IMO
I am curious if the phone that RA provided to Dulin was recovered, and if it appeared in the geofence data. Also, did it register at RA’s home - or anywhere other than the Monon trail area - after 1:30 pm on 2/13/17?
IMG_4569.jpeg
 
I do believe the geo-fence warrant - a fairly standard tool, is being misrepresented. And I do suspect the defence seeks to create a 'conspiracy' I doubt exists here.

To recap, the geofence warrant is a way of restricting a warrant for phone data by time and geo so that it is constitutional. The prosecutors podcast had a recent deep dive into the history and use, which is fascinating and I highly recommend skimming it for the basic understanding of how they work and what you get back.




So the key idea here is first you'd get back a lot of info that is anonymised. Then you winnow it down via your investigation and go back to the phone company/google and say aha! tell us about this one!

The fact that there exists a plot of 3 users on an AT&T chart does not mean there are unknown killers at the crime scene, nor witnesses to the murders. Indeed as the State points out (in State’s Response To Defendants 3rd Motion For Franks Hearing - screencapped) , these users are all known. It could well be the case that the geo-fence stuff simply won't be more than a one sentence answer in the state case .... "nothing of interest" - precisely because the killer likely wasn't helpful enough to take a turned on phone to the murders. Perhaps it will help with the timeline stuff, but then I suspect they will be relying on more detailed extractions and specific data for key witnesses.

IMO the state is simply saying this kind of misdirection should not be allowed at trial. But it won't be anyway. At best the geofence is going to have identified some known people, who may already be witnesses at trial, or who won't be because they never saw anything. But there will likely be specific subpoenas/phone analysis for these people.

tldr; i am sceptical geofence will play a significant role


MOO
I am more interested in RA's phone records for the day

Frankly, the veracity of the State's timeline is EVERYTHING..
The methods and tools the State used to establish the timeline must be disclosed and will be rightfully challenged by the Defense. The methods and tools available that the State decided to ignore - the same.

Whatever evidence agrees, disagrees, or was considered then ignored for a reason - has contributed to the creation of the State timeline, and is not a distraction. It is fair game. The geofencing information should be consistent with the State's timeline. When the state developed the timeline, did they make use of the geofencing information or did they choose to discount it?
If discounted, why? Does the geofencing report capture Libby's phone? Did the State make use of RA's phone data for the timeline? If discounted, why? Is the geofencing data part of exculpatory evidence for RA because RA's phone is not in the report?

It matters WHO was captured in the geofencing and it matters even more that LE knows who these people are b/c those captured in the geofencing are timeline witnesses (including Libby's phone.) The Defense has the right to know facts that LE knows as to who (via phones) was in the vicinity of the crime scene and when. The Defense has the right to question all potential timeline witnesses and evidence. These are not limited to the known park eye-witnesses or security cams.

Per LE depositions, RA's phone data does not connect him to these murders. This mystery we don't yet understand. How did the State's timeline accounts for RA's phone data? Libby's phone data?
In the State's timeline, what specifically connects RA to the murders beyond the bullet casing, certain eyewitnesses and ... a harveststore video of a car that resembles RA's? (Apparently no geofencing? No phone data?)

If RA's phone records for the day - (phone records both sides have studied) conflict with the State's timeline, including RA's phone being missing from the geofencing during the State's timeline - this is an area where the Defense can bring doubt to the State's timeline, if not alibi. Evidence that there is no evidence can be exculpatory.

If RA's phone records show RA's phone was turned during the day of the murders - (records which both sides have studied - LE likely having that basic information prior to charging), RA's turned off phone becomes critical evidence in the State's timeline. IMO, that fact would be part of the charging evidence; and part of the State's timeline. I'm inclined to think RA's phone was not turned off. (RA provided info to DD long ago that his phone was with him, it was on, he was using the cell towers to scroll stocks. RA basically offered his phone use as a timestamp.)

If the data shows RA's phone was turned off for the murder timeline ... the Defense would know this ... and would not push for geofencing evidence as exculpatory to RA.

If the Prosecution wishes to block the geofencing evidence from trial wouldn't it be easier to answer the Defense's demands thusly: The geofencing report is not germaine nor exculpatory to RA because RA's phone data confirms that RA's phone was turned off during the entire geofencing and kidnap/murders timeline.

Instead, the P states the geofencing report contains "nothing of interest". Either that means the geofencing is not a source for the State's timeline or that RA's phone is not on it, and/or Libby's phone is not on it, or both.

I think that we can all agree that RA's phone missing from this investigation's geofencing report is a point of interest.

As to Libby's phone being on the geofencing report ... or not ... we have no information. But I'd argue that the location of Libby's phone during the State's timeline should also be a point of great interest.

JMHO.
 
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Frankly, the veracity of the State's timeline is EVERYTHING..
The methods and tools the State used to establish the timeline must be disclosed and will be rightfully challenged by the Defense. The methods and tools available that the State decided to ignore - the same.

Whatever evidence agrees, disagrees, or was considered then ignored for a reason - has contributed to the creation of the State timeline, and is not a distraction. It is fair game. The geofencing information should be consistent with the State's timeline. When the state developed the timeline, did they make use of the geofencing information or did they choose to discount it?
If discounted, why? Does the geofencing report capture Libby's phone? Did the State make use of RA's phone data for the timeline? If discounted, why? Is the geofencing data part of exculpatory evidence for RA because RA's phone is not in the report?

It matters WHO was captured in the geofencing and it matters even more that LE knows who these people are b/c those captured in the geofencing are timeline witnesses (including Libby's phone.) The Defense has the right to know facts that LE knows as to who (via phones) was in the vicinity of the crime scene and when. The Defense has the right to question all potential timeline witnesses and evidence. These are not limited to the known park eye-witnesses or security cams.

Per LE depositions, RA's phone data does not connect him to these murders. This mystery we don't yet understand. How did the State's timeline accounts for RA's phone data? In the State's timeline, what specifically connects RA to the murders beyond the bullet casing, certain eyewitnesses and ... a harveststore video of a car that resembles RA's? No geofencing? No phone data?

If RA's phone records for the day - (phone records both sides have studied) conflict with the State's timeline, including RA's phone being missing from the geofencing during the State's timeline - this is an area where the Defense can bring doubt to the State's timeline, if not alibi. Evidence that there is no evidence can be exculpatory.

If RA's phone records show RA's phone was turned during the day of the murders - (records which both sides have studied - LE likely having that basic information prior to charging), RA's turned off phone becomes critical evidence in the State's timeline. IMO, that fact would be part of the charging evidence; and part of the State's timeline.

If the data shows RA's phone was turned off for the murder timeline ... the Defense would know this ... and would not push for geofencing evidence as exculpatory to RA.

If the Prosecution wishes to block the geofencing evidence from trial wouldn't it be easier to answer the Defense's demands thusly: The geofencing report is not germaine nor exculpatory to RA because RA's phone data confirms that RA's phone was turned off during the entire geofencing and kidnap/murders timeline.

Instead, the P states the geofencing report contains "nothing of interest". Either that means the geofencing is not a source for the State's timeline or that RA's phone is not on it, and/or Libby's phone is not on it, or both.

I think that we can all agree that RA's phone missing from this investigation's geofencing report is a point of interest.

As to Libby's phone being on the geofencing report ... or not ... we have no information. But I'd argue that the location of Libby's phone during the State's timeline should also be a point of great interest.

JMHO.

Excellent. I hope you've sent these thoughts to B & R.

IMO MOO
 
50 +/- years of defense between them, plus Hennessey as trial consultant?
They know all of this. JMHO
In all honesty, none of their collective Court Appearances or Filings have impressed me. Hennessy's performance during the Misconduct Hearing was almost comical and Baldwin's was not much better.

One can hope that maybe their $41K gimmie money fund has found them an expert to advise them.

JMO
 
Frankly, the veracity of the State's timeline is EVERYTHING..
The methods and tools the State used to establish the timeline must be disclosed and will be rightfully challenged by the Defense. The methods and tools available that the State decided to ignore - the same.

Whatever evidence agrees, disagrees, or was considered then ignored for a reason - has contributed to the creation of the State timeline, and is not a distraction. It is fair game. The geofencing information should be consistent with the State's timeline. When the state developed the timeline, did they make use of the geofencing information or did they choose to discount it?
If discounted, why? Does the geofencing report capture Libby's phone? Did the State make use of RA's phone data for the timeline? If discounted, why? Is the geofencing data part of exculpatory evidence for RA because RA's phone is not in the report?

It matters WHO was captured in the geofencing and it matters even more that LE knows who these people are b/c those captured in the geofencing are timeline witnesses (including Libby's phone.) The Defense has the right to know facts that LE knows as to who (via phones) was in the vicinity of the crime scene and when. The Defense has the right to question all potential timeline witnesses and evidence. These are not limited to the known park eye-witnesses or security cams.

Per LE depositions, RA's phone data does not connect him to these murders. This mystery we don't yet understand. How did the State's timeline accounts for RA's phone data? Libby's phone data?
In the State's timeline, what specifically connects RA to the murders beyond the bullet casing, certain eyewitnesses and ... a harveststore video of a car that resembles RA's? (Apparently no geofencing? No phone data?)

If RA's phone records for the day - (phone records both sides have studied) conflict with the State's timeline, including RA's phone being missing from the geofencing during the State's timeline - this is an area where the Defense can bring doubt to the State's timeline, if not alibi. Evidence that there is no evidence can be exculpatory.

If RA's phone records show RA's phone was turned during the day of the murders - (records which both sides have studied - LE likely having that basic information prior to charging), RA's turned off phone becomes critical evidence in the State's timeline. IMO, that fact would be part of the charging evidence; and part of the State's timeline. I'm inclined to think RA's phone was not turned off. (RA provided info to DD long ago that his phone was with him, it was on, he was using the cell towers to scroll stocks. RA basically offered his phone use as a timestamp.)

If the data shows RA's phone was turned off for the murder timeline ... the Defense would know this ... and would not push for geofencing evidence as exculpatory to RA.

If the Prosecution wishes to block the geofencing evidence from trial wouldn't it be easier to answer the Defense's demands thusly: The geofencing report is not germaine nor exculpatory to RA because RA's phone data confirms that RA's phone was turned off during the entire geofencing and kidnap/murders timeline.

Instead, the P states the geofencing report contains "nothing of interest". Either that means the geofencing is not a source for the State's timeline or that RA's phone is not on it, and/or Libby's phone is not on it, or both.

I think that we can all agree that RA's phone missing from this investigation's geofencing report is a point of interest.

As to Libby's phone being on the geofencing report ... or not ... we have no information. But I'd argue that the location of Libby's phone during the State's timeline should also be a point of great interest.

JMHO.
^^^THIS!!!^^^ ALL of this! It makes absolutely NO sense for NM to have this evidence excluded unless it guts his case which I believe is likely the case. NM is showing his hand, and he’s been bluffing! JMHO
 
^^^THIS!!!^^^ ALL of this! It makes absolutely NO sense for NM to have this evidence excluded unless it guts his case which I believe is likely the case. NM is showing his hand, and he’s been bluffing! JMHO

No.
Sometimes things are actually what they appear to be.
There is nothing that benefits the prosecution or defense here.
The prosecution doesn’t want it misused and twisted into some fantastic tale by the defense. This is what the defense has done repeatedly.
I, for one, am tired of hearing how this rogue defense team is working tirelessly to protect RA’s rights and save him from a massive LE conspiracy. They are not, because there is no conspiracy.
The defense is working tirelessly to have a child murderer go free, NOT by having him found not guilty by a jury from the evidence presented at trial, but by some legal technicality or fantastical claim like judge bias.
Who wants that? And don’t give me the old “better that one guilty man go free than….blah blah blah” stuff. I agree with that, but that is not what is happening here. This defense team is using lies and half-truths and manipulation to get a guilty man freed. That’s not justice for anybody in my opinion.
 
No.
Sometimes things are actually what they appear to be.
There is nothing that benefits the prosecution or defense here.
The prosecution doesn’t want it misused and twisted into some fantastic tale by the defense. This is what the defense has done repeatedly.
I, for one, am tired of hearing how this rogue defense team is working tirelessly to protect RA’s rights and save him from a massive LE conspiracy. They are not, because there is no conspiracy.
The defense is working tirelessly to have a child murderer go free, NOT by having him found not guilty by a jury from the evidence presented at trial, but by some legal technicality or fantastical claim like judge bias.
Who wants that? And don’t give me the old “better that one guilty man go free than….blah blah blah” stuff. I agree with that, but that is not what is happening here. This defense team is using lies and half-truths and manipulation to get a guilty man freed. That’s not justice for anybody in my opinion.

Amen!
 
No.
Sometimes things are actually what they appear to be.
There is nothing that benefits the prosecution or defense here.
The prosecution doesn’t want it misused and twisted into some fantastic tale by the defense. This is what the defense has done repeatedly.
I, for one, am tired of hearing how this rogue defense team is working tirelessly to protect RA’s rights and save him from a massive LE conspiracy. They are not, because there is no conspiracy.
The defense is working tirelessly to have a child murderer go free, NOT by having him found not guilty by a jury from the evidence presented at trial, but by some legal technicality or fantastical claim like judge bias.
Who wants that? And don’t give me the old “better that one guilty man go free than….blah blah blah” stuff. I agree with that, but that is not what is happening here. This defense team is using lies and half-truths and manipulation to get a guilty man freed. That’s not justice for anybody in my opinion.

Let’s be honest, though you have to love a grand old conspiracy that the guilty man is happy to go along with. I can’t think of many innocent men that would happily be framed and help them out to make the case more solid.
 
Up to $325k now.


This really warms my heart. All this money because Libby and Abby's life mattered. They were loved and are missed. Still are. The park, the bike rides, the reward, and people simply keeping their story upfront until justice is served.

None of this will bring Abby and Libby back to family and friends. It does show many people care.
 
In all honesty, none of their collective Court Appearances or Filings have impressed me. Hennessy's performance during the Misconduct Hearing was almost comical and Baldwin's was not much better.

One can hope that maybe their $41K gimmie money fund has found them an expert to advise them.

JMO
How do I despise them? Let me count the ways ... ;)

I can understand how we're all frustrated, but I find it more constructive to discuss ideas, facts, and law rather than personalities. I appreciate other case insights and perspectives as to the facts and law of course. JMO.
 
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I wonder if the 3 phones on the "crime scene" that I think it's most likely the bridge were 3 girls, Ch and two other friends. From what I remember, she said she was at the bridge at 3:00 pm with two friends. She and the friends crossed the bridge until the south end and then returned.
A map made of the crime scene with the 100m FBI geofencing info IMO if there are three phones in this area, they should have been able to see/hear the crime occurring if we are to use the states timeline. This user does visual aids of the geofencing info if you’re a more visual person.


3C5CDEAD-B841-4EDE-BF07-AE9D94966397.jpeg
 
A map made of the crime scene with the 100m FBI geofencing info IMO if there are three phones in this area, they should have been able to see/hear the crime occurring if we are to use the states timeline. This user does visual aids of the geofencing info if you’re a more visual person.


View attachment 513098
The bridge is also the crime scene..
 
Don't forget they have forensic evidence that nails ra.
Per the LEs depos, there is no direct evidence, no DNA, no fingerprint, no scientific evidence, no electronic evidence linking RA to victims or crime.

Although we know that during RL search warrant, they had fibres, hair and noted that the killer took items of clothing. We never heard of any of that again.
 
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