Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #191

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NO, because the jury will be protected from their nonsense. Just because they can send out their minions to spread rumours about Libby's video being phoney or tainted, or the narrative about Odinist guards threatening to kill RA's family unless he confessed even though RA was under 24/7 watch by video/audio cams, or the girls being hung upside down and blood drained from them, does not mean that the jury will be flooded with such bogus testimony. IMO
So did JG rule that this stuff is inadmissible then or are we still waiting? Even if she rules it is a no fly zone, I bet the D will still do something to introduce some sort of SODDI. They just may not name people or call them odinists etc… It will be interesting to see how they do it. I’d bet they try it no matter what JG says…
 
That he wasn’t fed directly or indirectly by LE (crime scene convo / questioning that gave him ideas about what happened / crime scene photos etc etc etc). That he didn’t figure out from reading his own disclosure… etc etc etc…. To be fair, the State doesn’t have to prove these things didn’t happen but the D will probably want them to show that it didn’t / couldn’t have happened that RA got the details from these means….

I'd like to know more about his confessions like:

a: If he confessed before or after he was given the Discovery.

b: How heavily drugged was he when being treated for his Mental and Psychological distress.

c: Did he confess a lot whilst being medicated? Without it? With or without it?

d: What was the medication?

e: How long was he really isolated from others for and why was he treated so appallingly?

f: With 61+ confessions how many were actually valid not just him saying: "I killed the girls." or "I killed Abby and Libby."

g:
Did he confess without any external influences or prodding.

I think the environment he was placed in wasn't the best that is for sure and it is mind blowing to hear 61+ confessions came out of his mouth, but WHY so many?!? Was it necessary?

There had to have been a reason or reasons why he over confessed and not necessarily because of it being guilt or God.

Im sure when it goes to trial we will have a better of understanding of everything - hope so anyway.

Nothing like watching reactions and body language as well.

I believe there is a lot we don't know plus more would have been going on during those 3 days that we don't have insight into yet.
 
Hi friends, I have been following this nightmarish case for a number of years, and after the last year of warring podcasts/YT, I am more confused than even when RA was first indicted. I have been following the threads on WS for a few weeks and I wanted to thank you for sharing some really good, well-sourced information.
Some thoughts re: Evidence, as I am trying to work out if my understanding is sound. (A lot of it is speculation on my part)

a) PCA: When I first read through RA's PCA, I was worried about the case against RA. Comparing it to the Idaho PCA that came out soon after, I found it less compelling - as in, it didn't include the 'GOTCHA' moment I was somehow expecting, MOO. However, after reading through other PCAs, I am now neutral; I realise that in this case, the LE's line is keeping as much information out of the public eye, so I am starting to understand that they are only included as much information as they needed to meet the Probable Cause burden. Of course, it could be that this is all they have, in which case, BARD will be hard to be met. IMO.

b) Tool mark analysis: MS is a podcast that inspires a lot of emotion, but in their 23d of August 2023 episode they had a forensics expert discuss the validity of toolmark analysis. In my understanding, Indiana does accept tool mark analysis in court but it is a process that's vulnerable to attack from the DT. While I don't personally doubt the existence of the ejected round, for me it is a mid-low weight piece of evidence, unless something comes out on trial (aka - if they have found a box of the same type of ammunition in RA's home, if they prove that from all gun owners only less than 5% use that brand, etc)

c) SODDI defence strategy: I don't understand the current angle. I see the appeal of the conspiracy angle and IMO it worked in Karen Reads' case well enough (I am still waiting to learn, if we ever learn, what compelled the jurors to vote the way they did) BUT. I personally believe that the alibis mentioned in the pretrial hearing for the main person linking LG and AW to the Odinist theory, BH, have been checked as thoroughly as possible. Of course there could be a 'what if' - the time was off, 'what if' - someone else clocked out, 'what if' - more cars were present maybe via the cemetery and 'what if' the helicopters never spotted them BUT I personally believe in the shorter path approach. Yes, they could be implicated if those 3-4 things that we have no evidence on are true, but there is a shorter path.

Which leads me to - RL and KK and his father. If we are to create reasonable doubt, I believe that there is an equal amount of 'proof' - aka the number of years and searches and resources the LE spent on these two as POI to create some kind of doubt for RA's guilt. Why does the Defence take the much more arduous and harder to prove path of resurrecting a group conspiracy - instead of leaning into the two, IMO, more believable alternative options, that require way fewer logical steps?

d) Confessions: Ooof. False confessions are very real. However, I spent a few hours looking into the Innocence Project and the data that have come out of acquittals/reverals. I hope it is ok to share a link: Do laypeople recognize youth as a risk factor for false confession? A test of the ‘common sense’ hypothesis

To quote the article: In their analysis of 125 proven false confessions, Drizin and Leo (2004) noted that a disproportionately high percentage (33%) came from juveniles, most of whom were age 15 years or younger. Similarly, Gross and Schaffer (2012) found false confessions in 42% of juvenile exonerations (compared to 15% of all exonerations).

Age is a factor. Reading some of the research, it also seems that the majority of false confessions happen during a single long interrogation. I have found very little data on spontaneous confessions given while kept on solitary-like conditions and I understand that this is because this is a very very unique case. Still, I am thinking that if allowed, the recordings of the confessions will be a high weight piece of evidence.

I believe the timing of the confessions and whether RA had access to discovery or not, will be detrimental, and we will have a black and white answer to that come trial.


To conclude, I am on the fence on whether the evidence will reach BARD. I don't enjoy being on the fence. My biggest worry is a hung jury. While we may never know with absolute certainty what happened in the last horrific moments of their life, the jurors will have to decide based on oftentimes conflicting information. And that's a heavy burden, but that's the nature of the justice system.

However, beyond the future juries, beyond RA and the number of people who have been dragged into this and are potentially innocent, my heart goes out to the families of the two girls who have been retraumatised over and over through this impossibly chaotic process. I hope for the sake of the families and the loved ones that the sensationalism will end, and some kind of outcome will be reached in October.
 
And I bet they will. They have handed over a tremendous amount of Discovery and have a long list of material, forensic and expert witnesses ready to testify. Plus the eye witnesses. And the power points and exhibits.
Ya know, somehow to me, the eyewitness testimony really doesn’t seem that strong (yet). I really hope they can present themselves as CERTAIN they saw RA and not someone else. I’d like more info on if they did a line up of some sort (photo lineup grid, one by one photos, an in person line up, single one by one or a group) - if any line up at all? I’d really love to have their testimony be rock solid and unbreakable by the D! Hopefully they’re ready!
 
I'd like to know more about his confessions like:

a: If he confessed before or after he was given the Discovery.

b: How heavily drugged was he when being treated for his Mental and Psychological distress.

c: Did he confess a lot whilst being medicated? Without it? With or without it?

d: What was the medication?

e: How long was he really isolated from others for and why was he treated so appallingly?

f: With 61+ confessions how many were actually valid not just him saying: "I killed the girls." or "I killed Abby and Libby."

g:
Did he confess without any external influences or prodding.

I think the environment he was placed in wasn't the best that is for sure and it is mind blowing to hear 61+ confessions came out of his mouth, but WHY so many?!? Was it necessary?

There had to have been a reason or reasons why he over confessed and not necessarily because of it being guilt or God.

Im sure when it goes to trial we will have a better of understanding of everything - hope so anyway.

Nothing like watching reactions and body language as well.

I believe there is a lot we don't know plus more would have been going on during those 3 days that we don't have insight into yet.
I can offer one answer that we learned that the medication he was given involuntarily was IV Haldol.

Haloperidol, a first-generation typical antipsychotic, is commonly used worldwide to block dopamine D2 receptors in the brain and exert its antipsychotic action. The medication is used to manage the positive symptoms of schizophrenia, including hallucinations and delusions.
 
By chance, do we as a group happen to know if LE made that remark before or after they added the second sketch to the mix and initially said it was a diff person / the same person / some combination of people? I don’t have the link handy but we have discussed it before so hopefully this is ok. It just seems like that had a lot of info except who they needed and I’m still not quite clear how they arrived at RA (aside the convo he had with DD at the beginning). Wonder if he’d be ok if he had never done that? Such a twisty sad case. :(

Nope sorry I don’t recall but I’d guess it was after the 2nd sketch, after the case had went unsolved for quite some time. I never was a big fan of the way DC presented the sketches to the public and I can understand why some people believed they were as accurate as a photograph.

If RA’s long lost interview hadn’t been discovered, after more than five years indeed the case may’ve gone unsolved. But going back through all the tips was mentioned a few times, as if LE somehow knew a lead with important information was being overlooked. But call it karma or whatever, sometimes it’s really weird occurrences that happen which out a possible suspect and I think that’s what RA was up against here. JMO
 
This is why the transcript will be important because there is an entire direct examination that was excluded from the podcast. I think it will be interesting for listeners to compare what all was excluded from these episodes and why that might be. MOO
But none of the direct examination makes a difference if at the end they admit that there is NO EVIDENCE putting any of their odinists at the scene of the crime that day. That makes that entire direct examination legally pointless. And irrelevant ...IMO
 
I can offer one answer that we learned that the medication he was given involuntarily was IV Haldol.

Haloperidol, a first-generation typical antipsychotic, is commonly used worldwide to block dopamine D2 receptors in the brain and exert its antipsychotic action. The medication is used to manage the positive symptoms of schizophrenia, including hallucinations and delusions.

One question answered.

Thank you!
 
We need actual proof of that because he says he left at 1:30. This is why interviews should always be recorded. You can’t prove he said anything with a handwritten note.
Police officers are not automatically going to record every single conversation, unless they happen to have their shoulder cams on. But RA was not being interrogated as a possible suspect. He was someone who called in as a possible witness. That is not high priority evidence when he said basically he saw nothing important, did not even see the victims.

He just came across as a run of the mill local family man, working at CVS. No reason to think his comments needed to be on video at the time. IMO
 
Well, if I were a juror, I'd need a good amount of evidence that he wasn't just on the bridge and that he actually did the crime he is accused of. Simply being there doesn't make the dude a killer imo. I'm sure he's guilty of something, but man, I want that evidence to be airtight and to lock him up for good!
Well, being at the scene of the crime, within seconds of one of the victims saying "He's got a gun!" is pretty incriminating. If he was not the perp then he was a prime witness. IMO
 
So did JG rule that this stuff is inadmissible then or are we still waiting? Even if she rules it is a no fly zone, I bet the D will still do something to introduce some sort of SODDI. They just may not name people or call them odinists etc… It will be interesting to see how they do it. I’d bet they try it no matter what JG says…
She has not ruled on it yet, but according to what I posted above, from the Indiana Statutes, there has to be some relevant evidence of connection to the crime to be included in evidence as a 3rd party suspect.

True, as you mentioned, that they may be able to throw out general comments about other possible scenarios. But they probably will not be able to name anyone or give specific info about anyone.

I bet they will try to get some of it in, but if they cross the line they can be sanctioned and also criticised by the judge in front of the jury which is not a good thing. IMO
 
Pretty sure if a potential POI professed to spitting on one of the victims they would have swabbed her entire body.

MOO

But how could they do that when the body would have been buried months before? IIRC, EF and the admission from him about spitting on her came much later in the latter part of 2017. Just my recollection though. JMO/
 
But how could they do that when the body would have been buried months before? IIRC, EF and the admission from him about spitting on her came much later in the latter part of 2017. Just my recollection though. JMO/
But they are going to forensically test for DNA on both bodies anyway. I am sure they expected that one or both of the girls had been assaulted or molested. So they were going to use infrared lights and everything possible to find where they should swab. IMO
 
That does not make sense, imo. We see BG RIGHT THERE with the girls. And seconds later the audio picks up the voice ordering the 'down the hill' at gunpoint.

Would another random guy walk up to two girls and a grown man and try to kidnap the girls? We see that BG had a gun on him under his jacket---why wouldn't he pull a gun to protect himself if a guy tried to kidnap them?

If BG was able to escape the random gunman, why didnt he report the incident?
I think you have misunderstood my meaning. If RA was at the other end of the bridge, if he left either with or without notice of AW and LG right? So the kids continue across the bridge - some dude at the other end walks out to a point just past them and he’s now behind them and can appear in the photo / video right? I’m asking if we exclude someone crossing the bridge following the kids from the parking lot side where they were dropped off, is it possible someone met them on the far side as described? I do think it might be odd that someone was dressed in the blue jacket and jeans, but a google search showed me a lotta men dress that way everywhere!
 
I would think that would all depend on the timing of the confession and the cremation or burial. Does anyone know when EF confessed in relation to when the girl's bodies being cremated/buried?

Latter part of 2017 IIRC MOO
 
Hi friends, I have been following this nightmarish case for a number of years, and after the last year of warring podcasts/YT, I am more confused than even when RA was first indicted. I have been following the threads on WS for a few weeks and I wanted to thank you for sharing some really good, well-sourced information.
Some thoughts re: Evidence, as I am trying to work out if my understanding is sound. (A lot of it is speculation on my part)

a) PCA: When I first read through RA's PCA, I was worried about the case against RA. Comparing it to the Idaho PCA that came out soon after, I found it less compelling - as in, it didn't include the 'GOTCHA' moment I was somehow expecting, MOO. However, after reading through other PCAs, I am now neutral; I realise that in this case, the LE's line is keeping as much information out of the public eye, so I am starting to understand that they are only included as much information as they needed to meet the Probable Cause burden. Of course, it could be that this is all they have, in which case, BARD will be hard to be met. IMO.

b) Tool mark analysis: MS is a podcast that inspires a lot of emotion, but in their 23d of August 2023 episode they had a forensics expert discuss the validity of toolmark analysis. In my understanding, Indiana does accept tool mark analysis in court but it is a process that's vulnerable to attack from the DT. While I don't personally doubt the existence of the ejected round, for me it is a mid-low weight piece of evidence, unless something comes out on trial (aka - if they have found a box of the same type of ammunition in RA's home, if they prove that from all gun owners only less than 5% use that brand, etc)

c) SODDI defence strategy: I don't understand the current angle. I see the appeal of the conspiracy angle and IMO it worked in Karen Reads' case well enough (I am still waiting to learn, if we ever learn, what compelled the jurors to vote the way they did) BUT. I personally believe that the alibis mentioned in the pretrial hearing for the main person linking LG and AW to the Odinist theory, BH, have been checked as thoroughly as possible. Of course there could be a 'what if' - the time was off, 'what if' - someone else clocked out, 'what if' - more cars were present maybe via the cemetery and 'what if' the helicopters never spotted them BUT I personally believe in the shorter path approach. Yes, they could be implicated if those 3-4 things that we have no evidence on are true, but there is a shorter path.

Which leads me to - RL and KK and his father. If we are to create reasonable doubt, I believe that there is an equal amount of 'proof' - aka the number of years and searches and resources the LE spent on these two as POI to create some kind of doubt for RA's guilt. Why does the Defence take the much more arduous and harder to prove path of resurrecting a group conspiracy - instead of leaning into the two, IMO, more believable alternative options, that require way fewer logical steps?

d) Confessions: Ooof. False confessions are very real. However, I spent a few hours looking into the Innocence Project and the data that have come out of acquittals/reverals. I hope it is ok to share a link: Do laypeople recognize youth as a risk factor for false confession? A test of the ‘common sense’ hypothesis

To quote the article: In their analysis of 125 proven false confessions, Drizin and Leo (2004) noted that a disproportionately high percentage (33%) came from juveniles, most of whom were age 15 years or younger. Similarly, Gross and Schaffer (2012) found false confessions in 42% of juvenile exonerations (compared to 15% of all exonerations).

Age is a factor. Reading some of the research, it also seems that the majority of false confessions happen during a single long interrogation. I have found very little data on spontaneous confessions given while kept on solitary-like conditions and I understand that this is because this is a very very unique case. Still, I am thinking that if allowed, the recordings of the confessions will be a high weight piece of evidence.

I believe the timing of the confessions and whether RA had access to discovery or not, will be detrimental, and we will have a black and white answer to that come trial.


To conclude, I am on the fence on whether the evidence will reach BARD. I don't enjoy being on the fence. My biggest worry is a hung jury. While we may never know with absolute certainty what happened in the last horrific moments of their life, the jurors will have to decide based on oftentimes conflicting information. And that's a heavy burden, but that's the nature of the justice system.

However, beyond the future juries, beyond RA and the number of people who have been dragged into this and are potentially innocent, my heart goes out to the families of the two girls who have been retraumatised over and over through this impossibly chaotic process. I hope for the sake of the families and the loved ones that the sensationalism will end, and some kind of outcome will be reached in October.
That was a great post ! You make a lot of really good points.

You are very right about the ballistic tool mark evidence in Indiana. If you have an interest I will link you the Turner case which is the caselaw that supports this type of evidence being used in court (in indiana). In that case they matched an unspent round found inside a man’s house with the fired cartridge casings found at the scene of the murder without a gun for the examiner to actually testfire themselves to make sure the unspent round even came from the man’s gun. How that makes sense I have no idea. So ya. The bar is under hell in Indiana.

And you do make very good points regarding false confessions, especially with younger people. I am a person that is on the fence regarding KK‘s confession, whether that was coerced vis interrogation methods or he just made it all up. I think that the main difference between the 3rd party dudes and KK is that the people that worked on the KK‘s case are not willing to go along with a defenses theory. I think most those names are also on RAs case so I don’t think they’d be able to get anywhere with it. However, I did notice a discrepancy regarding where KK and his dad actually were at the time of the murders. The original interview transcript KK was located via cell data at his grandmas and now apparently him and his dad are at home both on their phones ? Odd thing I noticed.… And there’s another way to get to the cemetery. But I’m being nit picky lol.
 
But how could they do that when the body would have been buried months before? IIRC, EF and the admission from him about spitting on her came much later in the latter part of 2017. Just my recollection though. JMO/
Yes, according to the FM, pg 73, it was on October 24th 2017 that he told his sister Joyce Moffatt that he was there at the trails and bridge with two other guys and he spit on one of the girls.
 
I could believe all sorts of people might be trying to cover up their own involvement here, including RA tbh. So many things in this case make it easy for followers to be pulled in this direction or that trying to wade through what is what and to figure out the truth of it all.
That's the atmosphere the Defense has created. It's also why JG has said no cameras. This trial should have happened in January. The Prosecution said it was ready. The Defense said it was ready. The Defense lied about that and we got another almost 8 months of the circus broadcast through docial media. Now some of those acrobats are deserting the ringmasters. About a month and a half to go to trial...maybe. Always say maybe with this case. MO
 
I think you have misunderstood my meaning. If RA was at the other end of the bridge, if he left either with or without notice of AW and LG right? So the kids continue across the bridge - some dude at the other end walks out to a point just past them and he’s now behind them and can appear in the photo / video right? I’m asking if we exclude someone crossing the bridge following the kids from the parking lot side where they were dropped off, is it possible someone met them on the far side as described? I do think it might be odd that someone was dressed in the blue jacket and jeans, but a google search showed me a lotta men dress that way everywhere!
It's a LONG way to the other end of the bridge. BG was RIGHT THERE with the girls in the video. The voice saying DTH happened seconds later. That had to be BG saying that. Where else could he go but down the steps where they all were,
IMO.

BG is not going to turn around and walk back across the in the other direction. He is going the same way the girls were going.

It is obvious that the man in the video was the same man who kidnapped the girls. There is no reasonable explanation for it being someone else not in the video, imo.
 
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