Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #191

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It will be a lot to read through, but will give us more in-depth details I'm sure.

What it won't do, however, is give us the non-verbal reactions which gives extra insight at times as well.
We'll take what we can get.
I'm sick of slanted versions of what went on; so I'll read the words.

There's no excuse for this lack of transparency by the judge.
This trial needs to be public.

MOO
 
It’s their friend. If they all wanted to join a gang and have brothers, they would all go together.

Friend or no friend, If I was going to go commit a major felony, I am not taking along someone with the mental capacity of a 7 yr old.
Robert Pickton argued “diminished mental capacity” defense as well and no one excuses his murders. MOO


I looked up Robert Pickton and posted the info here from his trial. He was not considered as diminished mentally as EF was. It was said that he was uneducated, could not read or write very well, but HIS REASONING was above average. He ran a farm and did all with that.

EF did not have good reasoning ability and had the mental acuity of a 7 yr old child. That is a 2nd grader I believe.



"Krywaniuk said in one test he gave Pickton, the accused had a vocabulary of an 11-year-old.
But under cross-examination, the witness testified that a later test result showed Pickton had the vocabulary of a 19-year-old with the equivalent of a Grade 12 education."



Pickton's full general IQ score at 86, putting him well above the level of mental retardation, which is below 70. But the trial also revealed a startling contrast to his inadequate education, and that was a desire to keep learning. While he was held in custody at the North Fraser Pretrial Centre in Port Coquitlam, Mr.Dec 10, 2007

The life of Robert Pickton - The Globe and Mail

 
It is not public information.
It is just known there is a security camera at the Harvest Store on
300 that captures the road and that a dark car consistent with RAs car drove west on 300 matching the time he said he arrived.
Ty for clarifying. Wonder if the jury will likely see that video as part of the state's evidence?
 
The contradictions are overwhelming regarding what is deemed credible or not. Two people confessing to the crime are not credible but one person is. One persons mental health affects their truthfulness but another’s doesn’t. We don’t know a single detail of the sisters health but we’re supposed to just ignore her now? Are all people with prescriptions unreliable narrators? What a leap. Also ignore all of the blatantly untrue confessions and just focus on the ones that can fit the case. The witness being entirely misquoted in the charging docs doesn’t matter.

It’s not at all how we should be looking at solving or prosecuting crimes in my opinion.

MOO

I think the experience and expertise of police officers has to be considered. If Murphy didn’t believe her claim of EF’s confession was credible, then he’s another one in on the conspiracy against RA. How many is that?

What do you mean “we’re just supposed to ignore her (EF’s sister) now?” what would you suggest, that she be hunted down? You are right, we don’t know a single detail about her mental health nor should we. We’re not investigators who were involved in this case.
 
We'll take what we can get.
I'm sick of slanted versions of what went on; so I'll read the words.

There's no excuse for this lack of transparency by the judge.
This trial needs to be public.

MOO

Couldn't agree more.

I've noticed over the last day or so whilst trying to find more information regarding the 3 Day Hearing and so forth that we really only have snippets of information from sources, for example, like CourtTV...not everything in its entirety whatsoever.

The trial should be made public and live streamed.
 
We need actual proof of that because he says he left at 1:30. This is why interviews should always be recorded. You can’t prove he said anything with a handwritten note.
If you were on a jury, and the judge instructed you to consider evidence provided on a note by a witness on the stand while under oath - would you ignore the note and judge’s instructions?
 
Friend or no friend, If I was going to go commit a major felony, I am not taking along someone with the mental capacity of a 7 yr old.



I looked up Robert Pickton and posted the info here from his trial. He was not considered as diminished mentally as EF was. It was said that he was uneducated, could not read or write very well, but HIS REASONING was above average. He ran a farm and did all with that.

EF did not have good reasoning ability and had the mental acuity of a 7 yr old child. That is a 2nd grader I believe.



"Krywaniuk said in one test he gave Pickton, the accused had a vocabulary of an 11-year-old.
But under cross-examination, the witness testified that a later test result showed Pickton had the vocabulary of a 19-year-old with the equivalent of a Grade 12 education."



Pickton's full general IQ score at 86, putting him well above the level of mental retardation, which is below 70. But the trial also revealed a startling contrast to his inadequate education, and that was a desire to keep learning. While he was held in custody at the North Fraser Pretrial Centre in Port Coquitlam, Mr.Dec 10, 2007

The life of Robert Pickton - The Globe and Mail

I don’t believe that we have seen any equivalent testing for this person so we cannot take this estimation of mental age as a fact.

As a general thought, I would assume that if a person was capable of rebuilding a transmission, they could also murder a person. But I’m being very simple with my hypothetical comparison as I don’t think it takes a certain IQ to become a murderer or an accomplice. MOO
 
I think the experience and expertise of police officers has to be considered. If Murphy didn’t believe her claim of EF’s confession was credible, then he’s another one in on the conspiracy against RA. How many is that?

What do you mean “we’re just supposed to ignore her (EF’s sister) now?” what would you suggest, that she be hunted down? You are right, we don’t know a single detail about her mental health nor should we. We’re not investigators who were involved in this case.
My comment was regarding the credibility of this witness. I don’t agree that a person should be considered untruthful just because they have prescriptions. I think that’s an unreasonable standard for believability. The sister took a polygraph test and passed, so I add that to the reasons why I would believe her.

We are all just discussing our own opinions about the case so I’m not sure how to address the remainder of your comment..

MOO
 
If you were on a jury, and the judge instructed you to consider evidence provided on a note by a witness on the stand while under oath - would you ignore the note and judge’s instructions?
If I was on a jury and I was told that an officer handwrote a note saying that the man was on the trails from 1:30-3:00 but this LE made errors elsewhere in this note and then had the accused say that he left at 1:30 and there’s video of a similar car driving in the direction of his house at 1:27pm, I would absolutely need more evidence than that to prove what time he was actually on the trails. Like his cell phone data that we never hear about !

MOO
 
If I was on a jury and I was told that an officer handwrote a note saying that the man was on the trails from 1:30-3:00 but this LE made errors elsewhere in this note and then had the accused say that he left at 1:30 and there’s video of a similar car driving in the direction of his house at 1:27pm, I would absolutely need more evidence than that to prove what time he was actually on the trails. Like his cell phone data that we never hear about !

MOO
Outside of this case, on a jury for some other case, would you accept a handwritten note as record of an interview? You noted earlier that interviews should always be recorded - a handwritten note is not proof.
 
My last post tonight as it’s 11.50pm and i am tired.

There is evidence he committed the crime so a massive big difference. RA can be placed at the crime scene so of course what he claims holds more water.

IMO
Well, if I were a juror, I'd need a good amount of evidence that he wasn't just on the bridge and that he actually did the crime he is accused of. Simply being there doesn't make the dude a killer imo. I'm sure he's guilty of something, but man, I want that evidence to be airtight and to lock him up for good!
 
Murphy said he finally realized EF was (parapgrasing) playing him, conning him, making stuff up.
He did? Ok so Murphy felt EF was not credible - but how did he verify that? Especially in light of different info from others who were there (pls can the powers that be provide us some sort of chart so we can keep track of who said what to whom / when etc?). My brain hurts. !! MOO.
 
Was it not claimed he suffered with Depression for half his life?

So LE can not be blamed for his poor mental health. He had it way it before he brutally murdered two innocent children on an afternoon walk and LE came knocking.

IMO

IMO Is it surprising a mental health report from an independent psychologist wasn’t ordered by the D. But then it might include a full background history.

“Prosecutors said Allen's shift toward bizarre behavior happened after a meeting with his lawyers. Dr. Monica Wala noted in past reports her concerns that Allen was faking his symptoms.”

I’m also curious what was going on in his life immediately prior to the Delphi murders. IMO the missing link is something that might’ve set him off him into a vicious, raging episode. Personal issues (ie threats from somebody, blackmail?), work issues (ie drug theft?), marital issues (ie infidelity?), alcohol or drug addiction, financial issues (ie bankruptcy?) to name a few are all situations everyday people get faced with from time to time. So what was going on in RA’s life early Feb, 2017? The silence is deafening.

JMO
 
Random thoughts incoming. There's stuff we know (which is probably pretty little), then there's stuff we don't know (which is a lot), and then there's stuff we don't even know we don't know (which also, is likely, a good bit of stuff) :)

That road, W 300 N, the one that goes out to the Monon High Bridge....that road simply isn't traveled a whole lot, even on a busy day. It ain't like driving in London, or out around the Baltimore beltway.

Think maybe the killer here had to drive out of there? I wonder if he went downtown Delphi, you know, grab something to eat? Or maybe just went home. Think maybe there's a couple of ring cams on the way? Or, maybe a gas station, or courthouse, or convenience store might have a cam?

Delphi isn't a big town, I didn't spend a bunch of time looking, but it appears to be a one light town, one traffic light, right downtown...well, maybe there's more, at an intersection or two. There's not a whole lot going on in Delphi, and certainly not a whole bunch of traffic on any given day.

And all those searches early on? If y'all were on board early on, there were several places searched. Maybe we could focus on all those searches for a spell....uh, nevermind. They were all dead ends, and not conducive to current discourse.

Then there's that nagging question I've seen raised recently. Could vehicles have arrived from the other direction, thereby avoiding the Harvest Store cam? Well, this was discussed ad nauseum back in the day, arrival by boat up the river, departure by boat, departure out Bridge Creek by 4 wheeler, hitchin' a ride on Rt. 25, escape via the railroad all the way to W 200 N.

How about those boots? You know the ones, over there at the Packing Plant....yep, there was grand discourse relative to that packing plant, oh how it went on, and on, and on. Imagine, a meat packing plant, blood, boots, and knives. Wheweee!

The killer, Bridge Guy, was he wearing a hat, or no hat, color of his hair, a puppy in his pocket, what's that around his neck, is there a bat, or club down his pants leg, a gun in his pocket, a plastic baggie around his neck, a leather pouch to carry his kill kit?

And then, all the discussion revolving around that cemetery, could it have been where he parked (can't see the back from the road), the old quarry there, did he escape that way, why did nobody see him parked there, on and on and on.

And the hunting tree stand....how it would have provided him a view of the girls arrival, how he could have stalked them from there, waiting to make his move.

There was even great discussion about 'down the hill', what hill, was it this one, at the end of the bridge, or that one, on down a ways, or was it the next one, that hill from the old driveway down?

And, the voices under the bridge, and red flannel guy, and the folks who live at the end of the driveway, and why were they on vacation, and was there a car waiting for them there, and were they whisked away, and, and the cabin, and the reference to the Shack, and can you hear screams on the bridge all the way from the murder scene, or would you hear gunfire from that far away, and just how far was it from the end of the bridge, and exactly where did they cross the creek, and was it up this way further, or down around that bend, and how deep was the water?

Then the discussion of why the canines weren't brought in right away, and the calling off of the search that first night, and how the locals searched, and who spotted the girls first, and what did that person say or do, and had the murder scene been compromised?

And don't forget the entire discourse relative to the bridge itself, the preservation of it, those involved in that, whether there was something nefarious going on there, was that somehow tied in?

And the university, don't forget the discussion of the university, and did that tie in somehow?

And the billboards, the national hunt, the thinking the killer might be transient, homeless, a trucker, from anywhere in the country, a traveling serial killer, and the talk of ties to another state, or two, and the discussion of the fire that killed several in a town nearby, and whether that was related, and was it a politician, or someone that works in the courts, or a person of power and prestige trying to cover up some dastardly deed of the past.

And, on, and on, and on, I could go. For real.....and to think, there is so much we simply do not know.

Abby and Libby. Truth will be revealed. I believe it to be near.
 
Yes you’re right! The thing is most other cases don’t take a deep dive into several other parties who were investigated, the focus remains who was charged.

Maybe it’s the difference between mental illness (a medical condition that doesn’t come and go without treatment) or an episode (re -RA although there is questions if he was faking it). I suppose her mental history which we don’t know might’ve been considered. Severity is also a factor. MOO
This is one of my worries though - they investigate a specific person and become satisfied that it HAD to be that person right? And then they stop looking at anyone else it COULD have been. Not even in terms of accomplices. Just stop looking for anything or anyone else. EG: kinda like what happened in Canada to Guy Paul Morin who was accused of a vicious murder of Christine Jessop in the 80's. Despite other possible options, the police zero'd in on him and kinda went out of their way to get him to make incriminating statements etc (jailhouse informant undercover placed in his cell or something)... He was convicted. Spent years in prison. BUT... he did not do it! Finally DNA showed it wasn't him. Imagine That? His alibi was that he was at home. Alone. When his neighbor vanished. His own mother confirmed his alibi and still... he rotted in prison for years!! It is a disgrace! And when we ask if LE are corrupt or working with tunnel vision to convict someone, while it does not happen in every case, the danger is always present that it COULD be happening. I want to avoid this as being a thing in this case or any other case. So to me, I want the State to show the jurors how even if Odins are never mentioned, how it HAD to be RA and couldn't reasonably have been any of the others they've investigated to date... Canada: Kaufman Commission - Guy Paul Morin - The Alibi
 
If I was on a jury and I was told that an officer handwrote a note saying that the man was on the trails from 1:30-3:00 but this LE made errors elsewhere in this note and then had the accused say that he left at 1:30 and there’s video of a similar car driving in the direction of his house at 1:27pm, I would absolutely need more evidence than that to prove what time he was actually on the trails. Like his cell phone data that we never hear about !

MOO
I have taken quite a bit of time off Websleuths so am not as up to date or as sharp as I once was, lol.

But I don't think the prosecution has needed to release cell phone data yet? None of the hearings have been about the prosecutions's overall evidence...only what they need to release to disupute the Odinism theory of the defense...i.e the blood splatter expert to dispute an "F" on a tree.

There is also the group of girls that saw him ...and most importantly that HE admitted seeing.... on the trail right before the murder time frame.

He also placed himself on the bridge in BG clothes....almost nobody goes on the bridge, it's terrifying, so that would be a crazy coincidence.

His bullet is found next to the girls, another outrageous coincidence.

He looks and sounds like the BG, who we know is "seen and heard" directing the girls down the hill.

He has confessed over 60 times, including almost immediately after his arrest before his mental episode and to his closest relatives. This is actually crazy, I am amazed it is going to trial. I think RA does have that bit of conscience left...he went to the conservation officer and he is confessing all over the place. It feels to me like he wants to be found guilty, but between the misfiling or whatever, his family, and his lawyers, somehow he keeps getting a reason to keep going!
 
I have taken quite a bit of time off Websleuths so am not as up to date or as sharp as I once was, lol.

But I don't think the prosecution has needed to release cell phone data yet? None of the hearings have been about the prosecutions's overall evidence...only what they need to release to disupute the Odinism theory of the defense...i.e the blood splatter expert to dispute an "F" on a tree.

There is also the group of girls that saw him ...and most importantly that HE admitted seeing.... on the trail right before the murder time frame.

He also placed himself on the bridge in BG clothes....almost nobody goes on the bridge, it's terrifying, so that would be a crazy coincidence.

His bullet is found next to the girls, another outrageous coincidence.

He looks and sounds like the BG, who we know is "seen and heard" directing the girls down the hill.

He has confessed over 60 times, including almost immediately after his arrest before his mental episode and to his closest relatives. This is actually crazy, I am amazed it is going to trial. I think RA does have that bit of conscience left...he went to the conservation officer and he is confessing all over the place. It feels to me like he wants to be found guilty, but between the misfiling or whatever, his family, and his lawyers, somehow he keeps getting a reason to keep going!
Welcome back.
 

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