Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #191

[ClearAhead]

I'm so perplexed here - so her tip was unfounded due to mental illness right? But then RA's info / confessions whatever we're calling them from prison under some sort of presumed mental health issues (smearing his own crud on himself???) are supposed to be valid? Perhaps the only difference is she didn't put herself there, only her brother. So many things to keep track of in the he / said she said of this crazy case (moooo!)

Yes you’re right! The thing is most other cases don’t take a deep dive into several other parties who were investigated, the focus remains who was charged.

Maybe it’s the difference between mental illness (a medical condition that doesn’t come and go without treatment) or an episode (re -RA although there is questions if he was faking it). I suppose her mental history which we don’t know might’ve been considered. Severity is also a factor. MOO

 

[grannygates]

I'm so perplexed here - so her tip was unfounded due to mental illness right? But then RA's info / confessions whatever we're calling them from prison under some sort of presumed mental health issues (smearing his own crud on himself???) are supposed to be valid? Perhaps the only difference is she didn't put herself there, only her brother. So many things to keep track of in the he / said she said of this crazy case (moooo!)

The contradictions are overwhelming regarding what is deemed credible or not. Two people confessing to the crime are not credible but one person is. One persons mental health affects their truthfulness but another’s doesn’t. We don’t know a single detail of the sisters health but we’re supposed to just ignore her now? Are all people with prescriptions unreliable narrators? What a leap. Also ignore all of the blatantly untrue confessions and just focus on the ones that can fit the case. The witness being entirely misquoted in the charging docs doesn’t matter.

It’s not at all how we should be looking at solving or prosecuting crimes in my opinion.

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

RSBM

This is exactly my argument for why there needs to be cameras in the court room. No one* is going to read the transcript to fact check what is being reported to make sure they are fully informed and getting the full story. MOO

* added because there are a lot of us who will absolutely read it lol the average everyday person won’t want to read it all.

I am waiting for the transcripts with bated breath.
Will definitely be reading them.

 

[steeltowngirl]

The contradictions are overwhelming regarding what is deemed credible or not. Two people confessing to the crime are not credible but one person is. One persons mental health affects their truthfulness but another’s doesn’t. We don’t know a single detail of the sisters health but we’re supposed to just ignore her now? Are all people with prescriptions unreliable narrators? What a leap. Also ignore all of the blatantly untrue confessions and just focus on the ones that can fit the case. The witness being entirely misquoted in the charging docs doesn’t matter.

It’s not at all how we should be looking at solving or prosecuting crimes in my opinion.

MOO

LE has to rule out blatantly untrue confessions and focus on those that fit the case.

 

[MiniMoo]

Just because the kids saw RA doesn’t mean he killed LG and AW though. It means he was… at the bridge. When he said he was. I do believe he probably is some sort of guilty but for now, all we know is RA was at the bridge and he saw some kids there who may also (likely) have seen him.

He did put himself there on the bridge that day (true) and he was apparently seen by others which is fine, however, the only thing that can't be overlooked really is that unspent bullet.

Having said that - it still needs to be proven beyond a doubt that he is the murderer.

 

[Boxer]

The contradictions are overwhelming regarding what is deemed credible or not. Two people confessing to the crime are not credible but one person is. One persons mental health affects their truthfulness but another’s doesn’t. We don’t know a single detail of the sisters health but we’re supposed to just ignore her now? Are all people with prescriptions unreliable narrators? What a leap. Also ignore all of the blatantly untrue confessions and just focus on the ones that can fit the case. The witness being entirely misquoted in the charging docs doesn’t matter.

It’s not at all how we should be looking at solving or prosecuting crimes in my opinion.

MOO

RA was on the trail at the time, on the platform, in the same clothes,
conceal carrying a p226.
All the SODDI is basic defense boilerplate.

 

[MiniMoo]

I am waiting for the transcripts with bated breath.
Will definitely be reading them.

It will be a lot to read through, but will give us more in-depth details I'm sure.

What it won't do, however, is give us the non-verbal reactions which gives extra insight at times as well.

 

[grannygates]

RA was on the trail at the time, on the platform, in the same clothes,
conceal carrying a p226.
All the SODDI is basic defense boilerplate.

We need actual proof of that because he says he left at 1:30. This is why interviews should always be recorded. You can’t prove he said anything with a handwritten note.

 

[FrostedGlass]

It will be a lot to read through, but will give us more in-depth details I'm sure.

What it won't do, however, is give us the non-verbal reactions which gives extra insight at times as well.

We'll take what we can get.
I'm sick of slanted versions of what went on; so I'll read the words.

There's no excuse for this lack of transparency by the judge.
This trial needs to be public.

MOO

 

[katydid23]

It’s their friend. If they all wanted to join a gang and have brothers, they would all go together.

Friend or no friend, If I was going to go commit a major felony, I am not taking along someone with the mental capacity of a 7 yr old.

Robert Pickton argued “diminished mental capacity” defense as well and no one excuses his murders. MOO

I looked up Robert Pickton and posted the info here from his trial. He was not considered as diminished mentally as EF was. It was said that he was uneducated, could not read or write very well, but HIS REASONING was above average. He ran a farm and did all with that.

EF did not have good reasoning ability and had the mental acuity of a 7 yr old child. That is a 2nd grader I believe.



"Krywaniuk said in one test he gave Pickton, the accused had a vocabulary of an 11-year-old.
But under cross-examination, the witness testified that a later test result showed Pickton had the vocabulary of a 19-year-old with the equivalent of a Grade 12 education."

Pickton of low-average intelligence, trial hears

New Westminster, B.C.–Accused serial killer Robert Pickton is no genius, but his intelligence falls within the low end of the average range, the jury in his first-degree murder trial heard yesterday.

www.thestar.com

Pickton's full general IQ score at 86, putting him well above the level of mental retardation, which is below 70. But the trial also revealed a startling contrast to his inadequate education, and that was a desire to keep learning. While he was held in custody at the North Fraser Pretrial Centre in Port Coquitlam, Mr.Dec 10, 2007

The life of Robert Pickton - The Globe and Mail​

 

[photographer4]

It is not public information.
It is just known there is a security camera at the Harvest Store on
300 that captures the road and that a dark car consistent with RAs car drove west on 300 matching the time he said he arrived.

Ty for clarifying. Wonder if the jury will likely see that video as part of the state's evidence?

 

[photographer4]

Well the simplest explanation, for that choice, would probably be that Abby saw Libby filming BG as he approached and knew she and Libby were going to die </3 MO

How awful for the kids.

 

[ClearAhead]

The contradictions are overwhelming regarding what is deemed credible or not. Two people confessing to the crime are not credible but one person is. One persons mental health affects their truthfulness but another’s doesn’t. We don’t know a single detail of the sisters health but we’re supposed to just ignore her now? Are all people with prescriptions unreliable narrators? What a leap. Also ignore all of the blatantly untrue confessions and just focus on the ones that can fit the case. The witness being entirely misquoted in the charging docs doesn’t matter.

It’s not at all how we should be looking at solving or prosecuting crimes in my opinion.

MOO

I think the experience and expertise of police officers has to be considered. If Murphy didn’t believe her claim of EF’s confession was credible, then he’s another one in on the conspiracy against RA. How many is that?

What do you mean “we’re just supposed to ignore her (EF’s sister) now?” <modsnip> You are right, we don’t know a single detail about her mental health nor should we. We’re not investigators who were involved in this case.

 

[MiniMoo]

We'll take what we can get.
I'm sick of slanted versions of what went on; so I'll read the words.

There's no excuse for this lack of transparency by the judge.
This trial needs to be public.

MOO

Couldn't agree more.

I've noticed over the last day or so whilst trying to find more information regarding the 3 Day Hearing and so forth that we really only have snippets of information from sources, for example, like CourtTV...not everything in its entirety whatsoever.

The trial should be made public and live streamed.

 

[steeltowngirl]

We need actual proof of that because he says he left at 1:30. This is why interviews should always be recorded. You can’t prove he said anything with a handwritten note.

If you were on a jury, and the judge instructed you to consider evidence provided on a note by a witness on the stand while under oath - would you ignore the note and judge’s instructions?

 

[grannygates]

Friend or no friend, If I was going to go commit a major felony, I am not taking along someone with the mental capacity of a 7 yr old.



I looked up Robert Pickton and posted the info here from his trial. He was not considered as diminished mentally as EF was. It was said that he was uneducated, could not read or write very well, but HIS REASONING was above average. He ran a farm and did all with that.

EF did not have good reasoning ability and had the mental acuity of a 7 yr old child. That is a 2nd grader I believe.



"Krywaniuk said in one test he gave Pickton, the accused had a vocabulary of an 11-year-old.
But under cross-examination, the witness testified that a later test result showed Pickton had the vocabulary of a 19-year-old with the equivalent of a Grade 12 education."

Pickton of low-average intelligence, trial hears

New Westminster, B.C.–Accused serial killer Robert Pickton is no genius, but his intelligence falls within the low end of the average range, the jury in his first-degree murder trial heard yesterday.

www.thestar.com

Pickton's full general IQ score at 86, putting him well above the level of mental retardation, which is below 70. But the trial also revealed a startling contrast to his inadequate education, and that was a desire to keep learning. While he was held in custody at the North Fraser Pretrial Centre in Port Coquitlam, Mr.Dec 10, 2007

The life of Robert Pickton - The Globe and Mail​

I don’t believe that we have seen any equivalent testing for this person so we cannot take this estimation of mental age as a fact.

As a general thought, I would assume that if a person was capable of rebuilding a transmission, they could also murder a person. But I’m being very simple with my hypothetical comparison as I don’t think it takes a certain IQ to become a murderer or an accomplice. MOO

 

[Boxer]

Ty for clarifying. Wonder if the jury will likely see that video as part of the state's evidence?

Yes they will.

 

[grannygates]

I think the experience and expertise of police officers has to be considered. If Murphy didn’t believe her claim of EF’s confession was credible, then he’s another one in on the conspiracy against RA. How many is that?

What do you mean “we’re just supposed to ignore her (EF’s sister) now?” <modsnip> You are right, we don’t know a single detail about her mental health nor should we. We’re not investigators who were involved in this case.

My comment was regarding the credibility of this witness. I don’t agree that a person should be considered untruthful just because they have prescriptions. I think that’s an unreasonable standard for believability. The sister took a polygraph test and passed, so I add that to the reasons why I would believe her.

<modsnip>

MOO

 

[grannygates]

If you were on a jury, and the judge instructed you to consider evidence provided on a note by a witness on the stand while under oath - would you ignore the note and judge’s instructions?

If I was on a jury and I was told that an officer handwrote a note saying that the man was on the trails from 1:30-3:00 but this LE made errors elsewhere in this note and then had the accused say that he left at 1:30 and there’s video of a similar car driving in the direction of his house at 1:27pm, I would absolutely need more evidence than that to prove what time he was actually on the trails. Like his cell phone data that we never hear about !

MOO

 

[steeltowngirl]

If I was on a jury and I was told that an officer handwrote a note saying that the man was on the trails from 1:30-3:00 but this LE made errors elsewhere in this note and then had the accused say that he left at 1:30 and there’s video of a similar car driving in the direction of his house at 1:27pm, I would absolutely need more evidence than that to prove what time he was actually on the trails. Like his cell phone data that we never hear about !

MOO

Outside of this case, on a jury for some other case, would you accept a handwritten note as record of an interview? You noted earlier that interviews should always be recorded - a handwritten note is not proof.