Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #197

[Betty P]

Vinnie Politan with Gray Hughes and Barbara McDonald
-GH states in the video that the bullet was found the first day.

Vinnie Politan dissects the killing of Abby Williams and Libby German and the accused murderer, Richard Allen. He discusses the upcoming chance of a fair trial and whether Allen is the perpetrator. (10/03/24

Vinnie Politan Investigates Episodes | Court TV

In this weekday series, Vinnie Politan looks at every angle of cases making headlines.

www.courttv.com

I was a little concerned listening to this because Mr. Politan and the guest experts seemed to think RA won't be getting a fair trial because of the judge's rulings and that the crazy theories and suspects of the defense were legitimate. Then they got to the part about the judge ruling no cameras in the courtroom during RA's trial. They seemed to think it was a radical and unusual ruling for the judge to make. In reality, its a common ruling these days when it comes to sensational murder cases that have received extensive coverage on tv and social media.

There are zillions of social media "influencers"/s out there trying to get rich on sensational coverage of attention grabbing murders and trials. It's more difficult than ever to avoid defense attorneys attempting to taint jury pools and jurors once trials are underway. Jury nullification is a huge risk when too much media and social media is involved.

I noticed during the trial of George Wagner IV for the Rhoden Family murders that so many reporters and "influencers" were suddenly pushing fake conspiracy theories claiming to exonerate the defendant. It looks like the same thing is going to happen for RA's trial. My theory is that tv shows, you tubers, etc. take aggressive stands defending killers because it gets more clicks, raises more revenue.

 

[Arkay]

For the sake of the Constitution, I’ll say that Todd Click is innocent until proven guilty.

Now for how I see this development…a man who is allegedly testifying about a case is suspected of falsifying records in his actual profession.

Therefore, as so many of you have said, this man’s words cannot be taken at face value. He has allegedly demonstrated that he is a fantasist who has fabricated vital information in his field.

His testimony being rescinded makes me believe there is credence to the accusations against him. To create falsehoods in such a crucial profession as his gives me zero reason to believe his testimony in anything else he has to say.

Not only has he wasted the court's time, wasted the attorneys’ time, wasted the judge’s time, but more grievously he has forced Abby’s and Libby’s families to waste their time in seeking justice.

Then, egregiously, there are vulnerable children under his purview whose well-being was denied, because they were not given the attention that was necessary to ensure that they were in safe circumstances.

Just appalling on so many levels.

IMO

 

[Betty P]

I must constantly remind myself that criminal cases are brought by the State.

What happened to Abby and Libby is awful, horrific, tragic, terrifying, all the words. There is no justice that can bring them back.

That's not what trials are. Trials are about justice for the State, justice for the defendants. Justice, if RA is BG, I sincerely hope he gets his justice -- a fair trial, a jury of his peers and LWOP. That's what this is about -- the legal test for withdrawing a US citizen's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

No question this was an unthinkable, unfair, outrageous, devastating crime against AW and LG's family and loved ones. From a legal standpoint, it is unequivocally a crime against the State.

You can't have a civilized society where a young-to-middle-aged man (as seen in BG) accost two little girls at gunpoint, force them to undress, and murder them. It's grossly incongruent, and the State is exercising the law to make surethe party they believe responsible can never do it again.

For this heinous crime against those precious girls, for his crime against the State, against order and civility, for his crime against humanity, may the murderer forever lose the privilege of walking among.

JMO

And that system comes from a very long sociological history, spanning centuries, of individuals, groups and communities coming together to establish common laws and justice systems. The purpose then was to bring some sort of order, safety and productivity to communities. It's a very old tradition, based on the desire of communities to provide safe, civil, productive societies where everyone's rights are respected and citizens protected. Without some order, its social chaos. Civilization is a good thing. JMO It's the reason for all of this and it didn't evolve overnight.

 

[Niner]

snipped from your post

There are zillions of social media "influencers"/s out there trying to get rich on sensational coverage of attention grabbing murders and trials. It's more difficult than ever to avoid defense attorneys attempting to taint jury pools and jurors once trials are underway. Jury nullification is a huge risk when too much media and social media is involved.

Just a reminder - this jury will be sequestered per my notes.

 

[sunshineray]

And that system comes from a very long sociological history, spanning centuries, of individuals, groups and communities coming together to establish common laws and justice systems. The purpose then was to bring some sort of order, safety and productivity to communities. It's a very old tradition, based on the desire of communities to provide safe, civil, productive societies where everyone's rights are respected and citizens protected. Without some order, its social chaos. Civilization is a good thing. JMO It's the reason for all of this and it didn't evolve overnight.

Yes to everything you said BettyP and I'd just like to add that the web is a wonderful thing too, full of wonderful help, information and inspirations BUT like society it also falls victim to those that would twist it into something crass, disparaging and dangerous. So you add that in big doses to our justice system and it's made vulnerable for terrible things. MO

 

[somequestions]

I can't speak for another poster so here's what Holeman said that's questionable. IMO.
Emphasized by me for focus.



If he had said: "and we have proof" I wouldn't have given his statement a second thought. Since he worded it the way he did, my question to him would have been: "If you don't have proof now, after all these years, how exactly do you plan to get it?"

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2024/04/Motionpdf.pdf

I agree. The PCA is the biggest reason for me. Wouldn't you put in the strong evidence like DNA or fingerprints and leave out the unspent cartridge evidence until trial unless there is no DNA or fingerprints or any forensic evidence that places Richard Allen at the crime scene except for the unspent cartridge found at the crime scene the crime lab says was cycled through his gun.

If Richard Allen confessed to being bridge guy from Liberty German's phone video or if he confessed to being the person who said, "Down the hill" on the audio, this case will be over in the first few minutes of trial. I think either of those two confessions will be impossible to overcome. LE will still be able to say they got their man even if the actual investigation was not very good.

I did not think it would be someone like Richard Allen. I wonder which girl was killed first? Maybe that will be revealed at trial? After former prosecutor Ives talked about the signatures at the crime scene and then the revelation about the sticks on the bodies was made public, I thought the killer in this case would have more of a reason for doing what they did.

 

[Betty P]

snipped from your post



Just a reminder - this jury will be sequestered per my notes.

Thanks! That's good news, though not so much for the jurors.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I was a little concerned listening to this because Mr. Politan and the guest experts seemed to think RA won't be getting a fair trial because of the judge's rulings and that the crazy theories and suspects of the defense were legitimate. Then they got to the part about the judge ruling no cameras in the courtroom during RA's trial. They seemed to think it was a radical and unusual ruling for the judge to make. In reality, its a common ruling these days when it comes to sensational murder cases that have received extensive coverage on tv and social media.

There are zillions of social media "influencers"/s out there trying to get rich on sensational coverage of attention grabbing murders and trials. It's more difficult than ever to avoid defense attorneys attempting to taint jury pools and jurors once trials are underway. Jury nullification is a huge risk when too much media and social media is involved.

I noticed during the trial of George Wagner IV for the Rhoden Family murders that so many reporters and "influencers" were suddenly pushing fake conspiracy theories claiming to exonerate the defendant. It looks like the same thing is going to happen for RA's trial. My theory is that tv shows, you tubers, etc. take aggressive stands defending killers because it gets more clicks, raises more revenue.

My state does not allow cameras in the courtroom, at all. It’s not radical, nor unusual, although PA is in the minority, as most states now do allow. Cameras in the courtroom are relatively new. Trials occurred for decades, even centuries, minus the ability to televise. FG is not blocking the public from entering the courtroom. Would I like to see the trial? Sure. But my rights aren’t being trampled on.

The Radio Television Digital News Association lists Pennsylvania as one of just five states that prohibits cameras in courtrooms. Delaware, Iowa, Louisiana and Oklahoma are the others.

Cameras are banned from Pa. courtrooms. How a lawmaker is trying to change that

Pennsylvania is one of a handful of states with the most restrictive rules against cameras in courtrooms. Is it time for that to end?

www.goerie.com

jmo

 

[twall]

My state does not allow cameras in the courtroom, at all. It’s not radical, nor unusual, although PA is in the minority, as most states now do allow. Cameras in the courtroom are relatively new. Trials occurred for decades, even centuries, minus the ability to televise. FG is not blocking the public from entering the courtroom. Would I like to see the trial? Sure. But my rights aren’t being trampled on.

The Radio Television Digital News Association lists Pennsylvania as one of just five states that prohibits cameras in courtrooms. Delaware, Iowa, Louisiana and Oklahoma are the others.

Cameras are banned from Pa. courtrooms. How a lawmaker is trying to change that

Pennsylvania is one of a handful of states with the most restrictive rules against cameras in courtrooms. Is it time for that to end?

www.goerie.com

jmo

I have watched trials in Iowa.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I agree. The PCA is the biggest reason for me. Wouldn't you put in the strong evidence like DNA or fingerprints and leave out the unspent cartridge evidence until trial unless there is no DNA or fingerprints or any forensic evidence that places Richard Allen at the crime scene except for the unspent cartridge found at the crime scene the crime lab says was cycled through his gun.

If Richard Allen confessed to being bridge guy from Liberty German's phone video or if he confessed to being the person who said, "Down the hill" on the audio, this case will be over in the first few minutes of trial. I think either of those two confessions will be impossible to overcome. LE will still be able to say they got their man even if the actual investigation was not very good.

I did not think it would be someone like Richard Allen. I wonder which girl was killed first? Maybe that will be revealed at trial? After former prosecutor Ives talked about the signatures at the crime scene and then the revelation about the sticks on the bodies was made public, I thought the killer in this case would have more of a reason for doing what they did.

I haven't seen very many PCAs because there hasn't been the intense interest in other cases I've followed. I know there doesn't have to be a lot of details in the PCAs but the ones I'm aware of have not been as bare-boned as this one. IMO.

As for the confessions, I'll wait for that one thing that we've never heard about, that only the murderer would know. However, I wonder how many other people know that? How did Cecil know he confessed to something only the killer would know?

IMO the case has been sealed pretty tight in favor of the prosecution. The defense has been blocked at almost every turn. Shrug...

 

[steeltowngirl]

I have watched trials in Iowa.

Apologies to Iowa, but I didn’t pen the article, which is then clearly mistaken. In due time, all states will likely allow cameras.

 

[justtrish]

Thanks! That's good news, though not so much for the jurors.

Yes, it's great news and it's one of the reasons I think Judge Gull wanted to keep the trial shorter if possible. She needed to have a set timeline so they could vet jurors based on this. If a juror has say a surgery scheduled for 3 months out or a pre planned vacation they already paid for, it isn't really fair to have an open ended trial where they will be sequestered. I also think for some childcare could be an issue and knowing it's going to be 3 or 4 weeks could greatly help those jurors be able to disclose any potential conflicts or issues they'd have. When the trial was set the last time and the defense didn't object to the timeline and then later they suddenly had concerns, I never felt it was the judges fault. There had to be a timeline and if the defense didn't object then so be it.

 

[Arkay]

I did not think it would be someone like Richard Allen. I wonder which girl was killed first? Maybe that will be revealed at trial? After former prosecutor Ives talked about the signatures at the crime scene and then the revelation about the sticks on the bodies was made public, I thought the killer in this case would have more of a reason for doing what they did.

Tragically, though we all have an image of what a deranged murderer would look like and how he would act, we who follow true crime know that often a murderer is clothed in the mildest of packages.

It would be so much safer if murderers appeared with warning signs. Maybe surrounded by thunder and lightning and radiation emanating off their bodies to warn us that they are killers.

If we scroll through all of WS we would find a thousand examples of who killed whom and why. For example, who would have expected a sheriff to kill his judge buddy?

Every time I watch a show like Dateline, and so often it’s the loving spouse or familiar friend, I wish it were obvious so the victim could escape.

Who knows what “more of a reason” actually means? Unfortunately, to the killer his reason is enough, even when if it’s senseless to everyone else. Common motives like lust and greed and power. Then motives that are completely opaque to everyone but the murderer.

JMO

 

[Willow Knight]

Some of us have wondered if RA was tipped in vs. the stumbled upon misfiled tip of Dulin's interview. It wouldn't surprise me to find out someone tipped RA in and that is how the focus gained or regained traction in Sept. 2022.

Just speculating out loud. LOL

Hi all, been away for a bit. This is what I think went down. Richard Allen was brought into LE's radar by someone. This is what inspired LE to go over all the tips, there may have been something filed incorrectly. I don't remember if it was ever confirmed exactly how or what was filed incorrectly.

Not certain if RA was on their POI list or not all this time. It could have been a friend, relative, online acquaintance, or a person that interviewed RA prior. I do believe it was some type of evidence that led LE to RA first.

 

[SouthEnd]

Tragically, though we all have an image of what a deranged murderer would look like and how he would act, we who follow true crime know that often a murderer is clothed in the mildest of packages.

It would be so much safer if murderers appeared with warning signs. Maybe surrounded by thunder and lightning and radiation emanating off their bodies to warn us that they are killers.

If we scroll through all of WS we would find a thousand examples of who killed whom and why. For example, who would have expected a sheriff to kill his judge buddy?

Every time I watch a show like Dateline, and so often it’s the loving spouse or familiar friend, I wish it were obvious so the victim could escape.

Who knows what “more of a reason” actually means? Unfortunately, to the killer his reason is enough, even when if it’s senseless to everyone else. Common motives like lust and greed and power. Then motives that are completely opaque to everyone but the murderer.

JMO

Your writing is always so beautiful and to the point!

There are so many reasons we won't understand.

Let's say RA woke up that morning and flipped a coin: tails, he'd off himself, heads, he'd commit the atrocities he had been dreaming off for years.
Maybe he had been so despondent due to mental health that life was a chore. Maybe the thought of inflicting terrors to children that were full of joy was the only thing that got him out of bed.

That's my theory at least; that if RA was the perpetrator he'd become so tired of every day life that most days he didn't care what happened or if he lived, and only the high if his fantasies drove him. That explains why he would talk to DD, why in theory he wouldn't throw away the clothes... he was too depressed to take real action to hide his terrible deeds. "If they arrest me fine, everything sucks anyways". And then of course he finally gets his comeuppance and he realises that it's so much worse to be alone with his thoughts than he ever dreamed of.

All MOO. I don't believe we will ever know the why.

 

[scapa]

Oh, you are right, thank you! I don’t know how it slipped my mind.

I’m happy for Libby that she had her dad in her daily life.

@Vaderman
Your comment about Abby being an afterthought touched my heart.

Of course BOTH of them count, BOTH of them mattered and still matter.

I don’t know why that is..maybe because of the theories regarding Libby’s resemblance to RA’s daughter?

Maybe because Libby appeared to be attacked even more savagely?

Maybe because Abby’s family seems quieter in public than Kelsi and the Pattys who are more vocal?

Each girl counts equally and each girl leaves behind equal heartache for each family. It’s heartbreaking to think of Abby as secondary to Libby.

JMO

Even more so, given that neither was secondary to the other -- these were two genuine lifelong friends, who might well always have been for a long, long time into the future. They were a twosome, closely linked, an item, a package, etc. One of the awful things of this crime and its aftermath is that RA seems to have done what their friends and family say could never have been done in life -- separated them, at least in some ongoing discussions of the case and perhaps mass memory.

I hope and expect that whatever comes in terms of a reckoning will help set that great wrong to rights.

IMO, MOO, etc.

 

[SouthEnd]

Hi all, been away for a bit. This is what I think went down. Richard Allen was brought into LE's radar by someone. This is what inspired LE to go over all the tips, there may have been something filed incorrectly. I don't remember if it was ever confirmed exactly how or what was filed incorrectly.

Not certain if RA was on their POI list or not all this time. It could have been a friend, relative, online acquaintance, or a person that interviewed RA prior. I do believe it was some type of evidence that led LE to RA first.

100% agreed. I wouldn't be surprised if it was someone who knew him through his daughter, since he seemed to have a very thin circle of friends. Which worked to his favour; if no one apart from his wife and mother really knew him, no one would be calling the police to report changes in behaviour.

But I do think he slipped a few times, maybe a remark, etc, maybe at the time of his breakdown in 2019, and someone got suspicious.

All MOO

PS: welcome back!

 

[katydid23]

100% agreed. I wouldn't be surprised if it was someone who knew him through his daughter, since he seemed to have a very thin circle of friends. Which worked to his favour; if no one apart from his wife and mother really knew him, no one would be calling the police to report changes in behaviour.

But I do think he slipped a few times, maybe a remark, etc, maybe at the time of his breakdown in 2019, and someone got suspicious.

All MOO

PS: welcome back!

If it's true that he did confess to other molestations, then I think one of his victims may have tipped him in. If so, he will be in big trouble at the trial. IMO

 

[arielilane]

BREAKING: 13 Investigates has learned Carroll County is requesting an additional $2.2 million from county taxpayers to pay for the #Delphi murders trial. That doubles the county’s original $2.1 million estimate for trial costs requested last year. 1/

https://twitter.com/x/status/1841958727538336068

I spoke with Carroll Courty’s EMA director this afternoon who said the new $4.3 million total request is based on increased costs due to three main factors:
1. Two weeks added to the trial schedule which means 2 wks of extra meals, hotels, transportation for the jury. 2/


2. Added security for the trial (and providing that added security for an additional two weeks)3. Higher than expected attorney fees and expert witness costs for both the defense and prosecutor. 3/


So far the county has spent approximately $1.4 of the original $2.1 million allocated for the trial, with Opening Statements in the trial itself still two weeks away. EMA Director Mike Fincher says the new budget request has been delivered to the county council. 4/


The request comes from a 3-member Delphi Trial Committee made up of the EMA Director, county auditor and a board member. The council will consider the request at its Oct 17 budget meeting. 5/


The new $4.3M estimate would make the #Delphi murders trial one of the most $$$ in state history. In a county of roughly 20K residents, it represents $200 for every man, woman & child in Carroll Co. Some of the $ could be reimbursed by the IN public defender commish. #wthr 6/

 

[Betty P]

IMO the case has been sealed pretty tight in favor of the prosecution. The defense has been blocked at almost every turn

The defense has long had access to the state’s evidence through discovery. They know as much as the state. They have been blocked from trying to release cherry-picked evidence to the public. They’ll have a chance to do that once the trial begins.