17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #13

[LambChop]

But Zimmerman's truck is not near the mailboxes. At least from what I have seen on the map it wasn't.

When GZ called LE he said TM was at the clubhouse (GZ was on his way to Target headed towards the front gate. His home is on the other side of the pool to the left) he followed TM to the cut thru path, parked his car and started after TM when LE asked him if he was following. So it appears if he continued down the path towards the next street he missed TM during that first pass. It's not as if he hung up with LE and he found TM right away there was a time lapse. According to gf TM thought he had lost GZ and could have been hiding. GZ claims to have been headed back to his car (which makes sense) and TM's gf stated TM said he found me. (could be TM was looking for someone who was home to let him in because he played ball with some of the kids that live there) Now TM's gf claims TM asked GZ why are you following me and GZ said what are you doing here, then there was a scuffle and TM's phone disconnected. That is as near as I can figure out.

jmo

 

[m00c0w]

It kind of implies that TM was facing him imo.

Exactly, but more importantly, it doesn't imply that Trayvon was ever not facing him.

 

[Isabelle]

That was badly worded of me.
I mean, male voices are generally more similar with other male voices than with female voices.

Dunno. Probably has something to do with XY!

 

[legalmania]

Well if GZ is looking at TM, and TM is looking at GZ,wouldn't they be facing each other technically ?

Another thing is how did the gun get from around Zimmermans waist up to Martins chest?

 

[OneLove]

Your post leaves me even more confused than before I read it.
You have things like 40-85% being found and then 48% means no match and then a score of 74-88 is inconclusive. Sorry I don't get it.

I don't think we have the capacity to understand and make judgements on this very specific technology. This is why I've decided to wait and see what the knowledgable, experienced, trusted experts say. It's been amusing watching people with no experience whatsoever refute the reporting experts so far.<modsnip>

 

[m00c0w]

Another thing is how did the gun get from around Zimmermans waist up to Martins chest?

I have not seen anywhere that conclusively states where the weapon was located, but I believe the most logical spot would have been in what's called the "appendix carry" position. From that position, it would have been fairly easy to draw it in any of the positions they could have been in.

 

[Isabelle]

Any ideas as to who is paying GZ's bills?

 

[m00c0w]

I don't think we have the capacity to understand and make judgements on this very specific technology. This is why I've decided to wait and see what the knowledgable, experienced, trusted experts say. It's been amusing watching people with no experience whatsoever refute the reporting experts so far. Bias, a bit much?

And again, no one's refuted anything. They've said they didn't have a conclusive match to Zimmerman. No one is refuting this.

That does not, however, mean that they can conclusively say anything about Martin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

 

[ynotdivein]

Bumping location post from last thread.

Thanks, here's why it got my attention. I finally isolated what I think is TM's residence and where he was headed.

<snip>

In trying to sort my way through this case, I realized that although I knew from several sources where Trayvon was at when “Captain” George called 911, I wasn’t sure where he was going other than home. To me, at least, it seems important to establish where he was going, particularly when the circumstances surrounding the final parts of his path of travel and subsequent murder are the subject of such great debate.

Where was he trying to go, at the 2:08 mark of the 911 call, when he started running with “Captain” George in hot pursuit?

Oddly enough, we may have our answer in a video hosted by the right Reverend Al Sharpton. MSNBC did an interview with Tracy Martin, Trayvon’s father, where they walked through the development retracing his final steps.

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/tra...timeline-leaves-many-unanswered-questions.php

At the 00:52 mark of this video, Tracy Martin is near the clubhouse and says this:


After walking the street and retracing Trayvon’s path of travel, Mr. Martin walked down this “back sidewalk” and described the positioning and location of his son’s body. From that point at the 1:42 mark of the video, he said this:



210 feet to the back door? Since I knew where Mr. Martin was standing when he said that, with Google Earth that’s pretty much all I needed to know:

I guess a case could be made that I don’t know which of the 2 residences down that sidewalk at 210 feet is actually the one, but I’m gonna go with the one on the left. Mr. Martin kept making reference to the back door and it seems to me if he meant the one on the right, Trayvon would have gone down the street instead of the sidewalk to the front door, since it would have been a shorter route.

Either way, Trayvon Martin was just trying to go home.

 

[legalmania]

I don't think we have the capacity to understand and make judgements on this very specific technology. This is why I've decided to wait and see what the knowledgable, experienced, trusted experts say. It's been amusing watching people with no experience whatsoever refute the reporting experts so far. Bias, a bit much?

Especially under stressful conditions. From what I've read and heard they were running, then in some kind of fight. Your voice changes as you lose air.

 

[iluvmua]

Any ideas as to who is paying GZ's bills?

Maybe he and his wife are What do you mean by bills?

 

[Ironhorse]

Again, nicely written and considered. Please don't think I am pestering you. I believe you and I are both committed to the points we are trying to make, so I'm not contesting you, just explaining the difference in our REASONING.

In your dog vs man scenario, the dog really did not have as much right to be in the middle of the street as the man did. at this point, there is a condition of neglect, potentially resulting in great harm. Of course, as a matter of sheer gut survival instinct, each will, in that moment, fight for their lives. So there are FACTORS to be considered.

Relevant questions are: Does this dog have an owner? Does the owner have a HISTORY of letting the dog run wild? Has he been reported before? If so, how many times? Conversely, has this man been known to intentionally agitate the dog? Did he open a gate and let the dog out, thereby CREATING the situation. These questions are pertinent to assessing what is REALLY going on.

Man v dog is not really just a random coincidental "no ones at fault" situation.

I feel the same way about GZ v TM. They did NOT end up on the walkway behind the condos with Trayvon dead as a result of total random coincidental actions. And a young person is dead. That's pretty serious.

I'd like to see pertinent facts released. An autopsy report would help. Knowing a fair and competent investigation is happening would help. But hanging in limbo in the dark so far, I've seen nothing that justifies TM's killing, even if he defended himself from GZ's vigilante actions.

Well my reasoning has never operated on the assumption of a person is guilty until proven innocent.

As I said the Dog situation was just a freak thing I saw this morning washing the car and it made me pause and give thought about survival and freedom. Had it been a wolf and this the Arctic Circle I would see it exactly the same. (I guess growing up in the country taught me don't go poking at snakes unless you want to get bitten.)

As for the weird twist in life it happens. People are always left wondering why did the person catch the earlier flight instead of taking the one they was scheduled to take, they'd be alive had done that. Or they ask why was they was late to their flight and missed it sparing them a death in a plane crash... The reality is we each get up every morning and put on our shoes never giving it any thought we might be dead in the next 10 minutes. Or that making that turn down that highway will cause us to be killed in a car accident... This incident in Sanford is a lot like this where a whole host of events fell into place probably and most likely as a result of many missteps on each parties fault.

I have a long history in loss prevention (Security) and I can tell you crime prevention begins right there. It's a very stressful unappreciated task and it takes the right kind of aptitude to conduct such work. Yes, it does require you to observe but it goes beyond that you must also confront individuals. So, I've got a unique perspective on what likely occurred that evening between Zimmerman & Martin. I'm absolving no one of blame...

I don't know how many threads this case has produced but 80% of the postings have been laced with emotions lacking any facts. No one has proven Zimmerman didn't head the advice of the dispatcher, yet it gets perpetuated as if he didn't, as if this is a fact. There has been mention that Zimmerman brandished the firearm as if he was on some sort of hunting trip, and there is no proof of that, but many like to perpetuate that as fact. Some are saying the lack of injuries on the SPD video indicates Zimmerman was lying. At what point does a person have to be beat to be in fear of their life before using self-defense? Isn't the point of self-defense to spare a person of injury? You don't wait till you look like Rocky in round 12 before taking action, that's just very unrealistic. Then there is the argument of the lack of blood on Zimmerman's clothing. Maybe it's too much Hollywood for some, but a point blank muzzle shot is not likely to cause any immediate bleeding at all. Now people are latching onto an unproven voice analysis as if it's as reliable as finger prints, what a joke that is.. Even after all these years polygraphs have yet to be proven reliable, but many people just assume to fail one is an implication of guilt. Don't take one at all and people elevate that to an admission of guilt... If I was a lawyer 80% the people posting here are totally and utterly unfit to set on a jury. They lack the critical thinking and objectivity to hear such a case. Their bias is set on a conviction rather than seeing justice...

If Zimmerman is guilty of not acting in self-defense he should be arrested/charged and brought to trial. However, if the SFP and two separate DA's and the FDLE lack the evidence to substantiate a crime was committed, then the witch hunters are only seeking to cause finical punishment on an innocent man who defended himself by forcing such a trial. Yet all this social pressure for an arrest is being laid at the feet of a Grand Jury and this new DA in hopes they'll fear that the cost of a town being burned down in a riot outweighs the innocence of one man. That's not justice that's erecting a Kangaroo court to carry out legalized vigilantism.

The truth is we have very little evidence to form an educated opinion let alone a guess as to what transpired. The reality the new DA hasn't produced a warrant for Zimmerman's arrest seems to indicate her predecessor came to the only conclusion available. This doesn't imply innocence it just means a lack of evidence to warrant an arrest. Now I get it that most people just don't grasp law and why it works the way it does.

Do I think Zimmerman is guilty? He without question pulled the trigger but that doesn't make him a murderer. Did he pursue a suspicious person in the neighborhood? I think from his perspective he did in fact do just that and done so justly. Did he break off the pursuit after receiving advice to do so? That I don't know... Did Martin feel threatened by this person he saw observing him? I would reasonable believe that he did. I think Martin felt escaping the eyes of this person was of more immediate importance than dashing to the house. He after all had ever right to be in the neighborhood... What none of us really know except the Police and DA is what occurred that resulted in Zimmerman having to use his firearm. It's likely there was a scuffle and the two got entangled and regardless of who threw the first punch both felt in danger of their lives. Each was entitled to defend themselves the only difference is Zimmerman had a firearm. There was no way for Zimmerman to know that Martin didn't have a weapon. However more likely in the scuffle resulted in them wrestling over the firearm once it was produced or discovered?

 

[legalmania]

I have not seen anywhere that conclusively states where the weapon was located, but I believe the most logical spot would have been in what's called the "appendix carry" position. From that position, it would have been fairly easy to draw it in any of the positions they could have been in.

It's in the police report, unfortunately I don't have it saved. Can somebody help me out, just this one time and I'll look up a statute or something in return. It's says something about a holster.

 

[iluvmua]

Well my reasoning has never operated on the assumption of a person is guilty until proven innocent.

As I said the Dog situation was just a freak thing I saw this morning washing the car and it made me pause and give thought about survival and freedom. Had it been a wolf and this the Arctic Circle I would see it exactly the same. (I guess growing up in the country taught me don't go poking at snakes unless you want to get bitten.)

As for the weird twist in life it happens. People are always left wondering why did the person catch the earlier flight instead of taking the one they was scheduled to take, they'd be alive had done that. Or they ask why was they was late to their flight and missed it sparing them a death in a plane crash... The reality is we each get up every morning and put on our shoes never giving it any thought we might be dead in the next 10 minutes. Or that making that turn down that highway will cause us to be killed in a car accident... This incident in Sanford is a lot like this where a whole host of events fell into place probably and most likely as a result of many missteps on each parties fault.

I have a long history in loss prevention (Security) and I can tell you crime prevention begins right there. It's a very stressful unappreciated task and it takes the right kind of aptitude to conduct such work. Yes, it does require you to observe but it goes beyond that you must also confront individuals. So, I've got a unique perspective on what likely occurred that evening between Zimmerman & Martin. I'm absolving no one of blame...

I don't know how many threads this case has produced but 80% of the postings have been laced with emotions lacking any facts. No one has proven Zimmerman didn't head the advice of the dispatcher, yet it gets perpetuated as if he didn't, as if this is a fact. There has been mention that Zimmerman brandished the firearm as if he was on some sort of hunting trip, and there is no proof of that, but many like to perpetuate that as fact. Some are saying the lack of injuries on the SPD video indicates Zimmerman was lying. At what point does a person have to be beat to be in fear of their life before using self-defense? Isn't the point of self-defense to spare a person of injury? You don't wait till you look like Rocky in round 12 before taking action, that's just very unrealistic. Then there is the argument of the lack of blood on Zimmerman's clothing. Maybe it's too much Hollywood for some, but a point blank muzzle shot is not likely to cause any immediate bleeding at all. Now people are latching onto an unproven voice analysis as if it's as reliable as finger prints, what a joke that is.. Even after all these years polygraphs have yet to be proven reliable, but many people just assume to fail one is an implication of guilt. Don't take one at all and people elevate that to an admission of guilt... If I was a lawyer 80% the people posting here are totally and utterly unfit to set on a jury. They lack the critical thinking and objectivity to hear such a case. Their bias is set on a conviction rather than seeing justice...

If Zimmerman is guilty of not acting in self-defense he should be arrested/charged and brought to trial. However, if the SFP and two separate DA's and the FDLE lack the evidence to substantiate a crime was committed, then the witch hunters are only seeking to cause finical punishment on an innocent man who defended himself by forcing such a trial. Yet all this social pressure for an arrest is being laid at the feet of a Grand Jury and this new DA in hopes they'll fear that the cost of a town being burned down in a riot outweighs the innocence of one man. That's not justice that's erecting a Kangaroo court to carry out legalized vigilantism.

The truth is we have very little evidence to form an educated opinion let alone a guess as to what transpired. The reality the new DA hasn't produced a warrant for Zimmerman's arrest seems to indicate her predecessor came to the only conclusion available. This doesn't imply innocence it just means a lack of evidence to warrant an arrest. Now I get it that most people just don't grasp law and why it works the way it does.

Do I think Zimmerman is guilty? He without question pulled the trigger but that doesn't make him a murderer. Did he pursue a suspicious person in the neighborhood? I think from his perspective he did in fact do just that and done so justly. Did he break off the pursuit after receiving advice to do so? That I don't know... Did Martin feel threatened by this person he saw observing him? I would reasonable believe that he did. I think Martin felt escaping the eyes of this person was of more immediate importance than dashing to the house. He after all had ever right to be in the neighborhood... What none of us really know except the Police and DA is what occurred that resulted in Zimmerman having to use his firearm. It's likely there was a scuffle and the two got entangled and regardless of who threw the first punch both felt in danger of their lives. Each was entitled to defend themselves the only difference is Zimmerman had a firearm. There was no way for Zimmerman to know that Martin didn't have a weapon. However more likely in the scuffle resulted in them wrestling over the firearm once it was produced or discovered?

Thank You Thank You Thank You[/B

 

[legalmania]

Bumping location post from last thread.

Do you know which way the entrance was? Do you know where Zimmermans car was in that picture?

 

[ynotdivein]

It's in the police report, unfortunately I don't have it saved. Can somebody help me out, just this one time and I'll look up a statute or something in return. It's says something about a holster.

Police Report

Page 3 of 4, just says from inside his waistband, retrieved firearm and holster.

 

[deelytful1]

Why didn't Zimmerman just shoot Trayvon in the shoulder, or his arm or a knee! ???? That would have stopped him if as he claims, TM was attacking him. He didn't claim the murder was accidental... (the gun just went off) He is claiming he killed with intent but it was self defense...
Why not just maim in intent? Trayvon didn't have a gun or a knife....

 

[iluvmua]

I read on the Miami Herald that Trayvon talked on the phone for 5 hours.

but this article says that he talked to his GF for 6 1/2 hours.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/us/trayvon-martin-profile/index.html

 

[shadowraiths]

It's in the police report, unfortunately I don't have it saved. Can somebody help me out, just this one time and I'll look up a statute or something in return. It's says something about a holster.

Police Report ( link, p3 )

Located on the the inside of Zimmerman's waistband, I removed the black Kel Tek 9mm PF9 semi auto handgun and holster.​

 

[iluvmua]

Why didn't Zimmerman just shoot Trayvon in the shoulder, or his arm or a knee! ???? That would have stopped him if as he claims, TM was attacking him. He didn't claim the murder was accidental... (the gun just went off) He is claiming he killed with intent but it was self defense...
Why not just maim in intent? Trayvon didn't have a gun or a knife....

You would probably have to ask him that.