17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #13

[jjenny]

Those wheels certainly can be slow, can't they? Sometimes they don't turn at all.

Gee, what race was Robert Champion, (the young man who was killed) again?

I'm sure some have forgotten and others will profess coincidence.

imo

Let's not make everything about race without any evidence, considering there are plenty of cases where white people are killed and no one gets arrested for a long time or ever.

 

[katydid23]

Why didn't Zimmerman just shoot Trayvon in the shoulder, or his arm or a knee! ???? That would have stopped him if as he claims, TM was attacking him. He didn't claim the murder was accidental... (the gun just went off) He is claiming he killed with intent but it was self defense...
Why not just maim in intent? Trayvon didn't have a gun or a knife....

Because if Trayvon was trying to grab the gun then GZ would need to do more than shoot him in the knee or the shoulder. If two people are within inches of each other and wrestling for control of the gun, whomever gets control is going to live, the other will likly be badly wounded.

 

[shadowraiths]

By Steve Cain, Lonnie Smrkovski and Mindy Wilson ( link )

Voiceprint identification can be defined as a combination of both aural (listening) and spectrographic (instrumental) comparison of one or more known voices with an unknown voice for the purpose of identification or elimination. Developed by Bell Laboratories in the late 1940s for military intelligence purposes, the modern-day forensic utilization of the technique did not start until the late 1960s following its adoption by the Michigan State Police. From 1967 until the present, more than 5,000 law enforcement related voice identification cases have been processed by certified voiceprint examiners.

[...]


There are two general "rules" or "standards" by which scientific evidence is accepted in courts of law in the United States. The first, commonly referred to as the Frye "rule" or "test," is based on a 1923 District of Columbia case and basically requires "general acceptance in the particular field in which it belongs." See Frye v. United States, 54 App. D.C. 46, 293 F. 1013 (1923). The second is based on the argument of McCormick (See "McCormick on Evidence," 3rd Ed., 203 at 608.) McCormick states: "General scientific acceptance is a proper condition for taking judicial notice of scientific facts, but it is not a suitable criterion for the admissibility of scientific evidence. Any relevant conclusion supported by a qualified expert witness should be received unless there are distinct reasons for exclusion." See Rule 702 of the Federal Rules of Evidence.​

Florida is a Frye state. ( link )

 

[legalmania]

Police Report

Page 3 of 4, just says from inside his waistband, retrieved firearm and holster.

Thank you I just found it and was going to post it.

 

[imamaze]

I read on the Miami Herald that Trayvon talked on the phone for 5 hours.

but this article says that he talked to his GF for 6 1/2 hours.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/us/trayvon-martin-profile/index.html

6-1/2 hours throughout the day. That seems pretty normal to me for teenagers. MOO.

Ima

 

[deelytful1]

Because if Trayvon was trying to grab the gun then GZ would need to do more than shoot him in the knee or the shoulder. If two people are within inches of each other and wrestling for control of the gun, whomever gets control is going to live, the other will likly be badly wounded.

But wouldn't that explanation have saved alot of people alot of grief? We haven't heard that story... If that was my claim, I would have made sure the media (and the world) heard it from the get go! I could understand a situation like that....

 

[ynotdivein]

Do you know which way the entrance was? Do you know where Zimmermans car was in that picture?

There were some awesome maps by other posters in previous threads; if you search each thread using "map" as the keyword they will come up. But for this discussion, I'm using Google:

Google map of condo complex

Zoom in two clicks. The clubhouse with pool is clear; the mailbox hut is right where it says "1110" on the map. The main entrance is to the north, where Oregon Ave makes a T with Twin Trees. The back entrance is south and east. I do not know if we have final word on where GZ's SUV was located, but assume somewhere along the dogleg that Twin Trees makes around the lake.

I hope that helps!

 

[iluvmua]

Just speculation but what if Trayvon was hitting GZ's head on the sidewalk and punching him hoping to knock him out so he could grab the gun out of his holster?

 

[highflyer]

6-1/2 hours throughout the day. That seems pretty normal to me for teenagers. MOO.

Ima

Yes. Been a teenager and had two of them, and that is most certainly normal.

 

[m00c0w]

Why didn't Zimmerman just shoot Trayvon in the shoulder, or his arm or a knee! ???? That would have stopped him if as he claims, TM was attacking him. He didn't claim the murder was accidental... (the gun just went off) He is claiming he killed with intent but it was self defense...
Why not just maim in intent? Trayvon didn't have a gun or a knife....

Because shooting to maim or injure would imply that you're not actually in fear of your life, otherwise you'd shoot to stop the threat completely. You use deadly force to kill.

 

[TonyGatto]

Do you know which way the entrance was? Do you know where Zimmermans car was in that picture?

The entrance to the complex is on the north end. According to the family attorney -- through TM's GF -- who he was on the phone with, TM took cover from the rain as he entered from the north -- heading south. He then would have taken a left. Zimmerman was somewhere along that road.

 

[m00c0w]

It's in the police report, unfortunately I don't have it saved. Can somebody help me out, just this one time and I'll look up a statute or something in return. It's says something about a holster.

They just make mention of removing the holster from his waistband. It never got more specific than that.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

There were some awesome maps by other posters in previous threads; if you search each thread using "map" as the keyword they will come up. But for this discussion, I'm using Google:

Google map of condo complex

Zoom in two clicks. The clubhouse with pool is clear; the mailbox hut is right where it says "1110" on the map. The main entrance is to the north, where Oregon Ave makes a T with Twin Trees. The back entrance is south and east. I do not know if we have final word on where GZ's SUV was located, but assume somewhere along the dogleg that Twin Trees makes around the lake.

I hope that helps!

He said his truuuuck was past the mailboxes.

 

[deelytful1]

Because shooting to maim or injure would imply that you're not actually in fear of your life, otherwise you'd shoot to stop the threat completely. You use deadly force to kill.

Wow.. that makes NO sense to me... Your post does... the concept does NOT

 

[Isabelle]

I read on the Miami Herald that Trayvon talked on the phone for 5 hours.

but this article says that he talked to his GF for 6 1/2 hours.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/us/trayvon-martin-profile/index.html

I'm not surprised at all.

 

[TonyGatto]

Well my reasoning has never operated on the assumption of a person is guilty until proven innocent.

As I said the Dog situation was just a freak thing I saw this morning washing the car and it made me pause and give thought about survival and freedom. Had it been a wolf and this the Arctic Circle I would see it exactly the same. (I guess growing up in the country taught me don't go poking at snakes unless you want to get bitten.)

As for the weird twist in life it happens. People are always left wondering why did the person catch the earlier flight instead of taking the one they was scheduled to take, they'd be alive had done that. Or they ask why was they was late to their flight and missed it sparing them a death in a plane crash... The reality is we each get up every morning and put on our shoes never giving it any thought we might be dead in the next 10 minutes. Or that making that turn down that highway will cause us to be killed in a car accident... This incident in Sanford is a lot like this where a whole host of events fell into place probably and most likely as a result of many missteps on each parties fault.

I have a long history in loss prevention (Security) and I can tell you crime prevention begins right there. It's a very stressful unappreciated task and it takes the right kind of aptitude to conduct such work. Yes, it does require you to observe but it goes beyond that you must also confront individuals. So, I've got a unique perspective on what likely occurred that evening between Zimmerman & Martin. I'm absolving no one of blame...

I don't know how many threads this case has produced but 80% of the postings have been laced with emotions lacking any facts. No one has proven Zimmerman didn't head the advice of the dispatcher, yet it gets perpetuated as if he didn't, as if this is a fact. There has been mention that Zimmerman brandished the firearm as if he was on some sort of hunting trip, and there is no proof of that, but many like to perpetuate that as fact. Some are saying the lack of injuries on the SPD video indicates Zimmerman was lying. At what point does a person have to be beat to be in fear of their life before using self-defense? Isn't the point of self-defense to spare a person of injury? You don't wait till you look like Rocky in round 12 before taking action, that's just very unrealistic. Then there is the argument of the lack of blood on Zimmerman's clothing. Maybe it's too much Hollywood for some, but a point blank muzzle shot is not likely to cause any immediate bleeding at all. Now people are latching onto an unproven voice analysis as if it's as reliable as finger prints, what a joke that is.. Even after all these years polygraphs have yet to be proven reliable, but many people just assume to fail one is an implication of guilt. Don't take one at all and people elevate that to an admission of guilt... If I was a lawyer 80% the people posting here are totally and utterly unfit to set on a jury. They lack the critical thinking and objectivity to hear such a case. Their bias is set on a conviction rather than seeing justice...

If Zimmerman is guilty of not acting in self-defense he should be arrested/charged and brought to trial. However, if the SFP and two separate DA's and the FDLE lack the evidence to substantiate a crime was committed, then the witch hunters are only seeking to cause finical punishment on an innocent man who defended himself by forcing such a trial. Yet all this social pressure for an arrest is being laid at the feet of a Grand Jury and this new DA in hopes they'll fear that the cost of a town being burned down in a riot outweighs the innocence of one man. That's not justice that's erecting a Kangaroo court to carry out legalized vigilantism.

The truth is we have very little evidence to form an educated opinion let alone a guess as to what transpired. The reality the new DA hasn't produced a warrant for Zimmerman's arrest seems to indicate her predecessor came to the only conclusion available. This doesn't imply innocence it just means a lack of evidence to warrant an arrest. Now I get it that most people just don't grasp law and why it works the way it does.

Do I think Zimmerman is guilty? He without question pulled the trigger but that doesn't make him a murderer. Did he pursue a suspicious person in the neighborhood? I think from his perspective he did in fact do just that and done so justly. Did he break off the pursuit after receiving advice to do so? That I don't know... Did Martin feel threatened by this person he saw observing him? I would reasonable believe that he did. I think Martin felt escaping the eyes of this person was of more immediate importance than dashing to the house. He after all had ever right to be in the neighborhood... What none of us really know except the Police and DA is what occurred that resulted in Zimmerman having to use his firearm. It's likely there was a scuffle and the two got entangled and regardless of who threw the first punch both felt in danger of their lives. Each was entitled to defend themselves the only difference is Zimmerman had a firearm. There was no way for Zimmerman to know that Martin didn't have a weapon. However more likely in the scuffle resulted in them wrestling over the firearm once it was produced or discovered?

If Zimmerman heeded the dispatcher's suggestion not to follow TM, how would you explain how and why he ended up behind the homes where he shot TM?

 

[katydid23]

But wouldn't that explanation have saved alot of people alot of grief? We haven't heard that story... If that was my claim, I would have made sure the media (and the world) heard it from the get go! I could understand a situation like that....

I think that is what his story has been and will continue to be. And i think he will be charged with manslaughter and not murder because of that, which will be very dangerous for those of us in urban centers.
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“He prevented his firearm from being taken from him and used against him -- and that's called saving your life,” Zimmerman Jr. told Morgan, a night after his father Robert Zimmerman told Fox’s Orlando outlet “that Trayvon Martin got on top of [George] and just started beating him.”

 

[OneLove]

Because shooting to maim or injure would imply that you're not actually in fear of your life, otherwise you'd shoot to stop the threat completely. You use deadly force to kill.

Another reason some people shoot to kill instead of maim to stop the attack is that dead men tell no stories, do not live to sue, and some licensed-conceal instructors tell their students to do this exact thing, for these exact reasons.

 

[Isabelle]

Would like to see autopsy results.

 

[Rhyme & Reason]

I don't think that Trayvon was shot in the back, but I do doubt the story that he was on top of GZ when he was shot....I cannot reconcile the unblemished state of GZ's shirt with a very close contact chest shot, I would not expect him to be covered in blood but there should be some spots of blood big enough for a person to see, even with the grainy camera. From what I have been able to find out, gunshot wounds splatter blood when they first hit.

Further, I have never believed that the screams on the 911 tape were GZ, it does not sound like his voice at all, and I have every reason to believe the test that has been published, which leads me to believe that is the sound of a young man who sees the gun, and knows that he is going to be shot and is trying to get away, if the voice analysis is correct it certainly does not substantiate the idea that GZ was under attack when he shot, and lastly, I do not believe that someone shouting and screaming for their life is going to simply STOP the minute they shoot their assailant....how did he know that one shot would stop him? In a life and death struggle you don't stop screaming until you are certain that you are no longer under attack, and I don't see that being the very instant that you shoot...IMO JMHO and stuff.

Very good points.