17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #19

[LinasK]

It's his child. TM was not GZ's responsibility, ever. jmo

And... it's irrelevant whether TM was "squeaky clean" because he was doing nothing illegal when he was shot. He didn't even punch GZ, because there were no bruises on his knuckles!

 

[Allusonz]

I have seen many questions with respect to the VST that may of been given.

Here is one site that provides more information with respect to it.

" Used by some Police and Sheriff departments, the CIA, FBI, NSA, Homeland Security, U.S. Military"

http://pacificpolygraphs.com/voice-polygraph.htm

 

[Chris_Texas]

His medical info is not all they want.
the public as I see it wants much more then just the meical info.

Yes we do. And at this point, given the history of this department, the handling of this case, and the facts available, we need to know what's going on. If everything is legit, great. If not, we fix the mess as best we can and move on. No one, least of all the government, deserves blind faith. How much less so when what we are asked to believe appears to be questionable.

In my opinion.

 

[Chris_Texas]

It's just this: in a job interview you talk to someone in a rational manner and have time to judge them based not only on clothing (I would hope) but also on the answers they give. Or not ~ whatever. But usually the job applicant has an appointment so it's all civilized and agreed upon by both parties, correct? A boss doesn't stand outside his place of business accosting people on the street about whether they are suitable for a job they aren't looking for and probably don't want.

With George and Trayvon, the kid was seen from a distance and it was dark or nearly so, he wasn't dressing to impress George or anyone else nor does the law require that from someone taking a walk. The "interview" was either mumbled or hollered while George was on 911 and Trayvon was trying to talk to his girlfriend on the phone. Whatever face time they had was not civilized and ended in some type of brawl and ended with Trayvon dead on the ground.

I don't believe anyone has to get a makeover just to please their neighbors or even their family or really anyone in the world. Trayvon wasn't breaking any laws and there's no evidence his pants were down or that he had tattoos any of the things I've seen mentioned, and even if he did, good luck seeing tattoos in the dark from across the street anyway. Did I mention tattoos are not illegal, nor are they reason enough to accost someone.

I've never dressed to please anyone but myself and no one has ever shot me for it, which actually surprises me now, come to think of it. Freedom to walk around dressed casually in a way that pleases only myself is something I won't take for granted ever again.

Brilliant post. :rocker:

 

[Allusonz]

Happy Easter to you all!

 

[LambChop]

good point that anyone can claim..
would not they need a photo with themselvs or their family wearing that piece? LIKE PROOF.

No. I had a piece of jewelry stolen and I had to describe it. I think it's common sense even if someone finds a piece of jewelry and you call claiming it's yours they ask you to describe it. They may say we found a watch, ring, etc. but it's up to you to give it some detail. No one is just going to hand it over without an accurate description. You don't need a photo if it's your jewelry you can describe it in detail and the other person is holding it. jmo

 

[LambChop]

Yes we do. And at this point, given the history of this department, the handling of this case, and the facts available, we need to know what's going on. If everything is legit, great. If not, we fix the mess as best we can and move on. No one, least of all the government, deserves blind faith. How much less so when what we are asked to believe appears to be questionable.

In my opinion.

And don't we have a right to certain information since we are all paying for it. jmo

 

[CathyinTexas]

We would have to ask the SA that question because it appears he made that decision without even knowing who TM was.

I'm still trying to figure out how SYG applies when GA was not in his car and was not at home and TM was literally yards from his back door. Once you start to track someone I don't think that SYG law should apply. Self defense, maybe, if someone were to jump you. But to use SYG because you are somewhere where you would not have normally been, doing something you would not normally do in order to stop someone from committing a crime when there is no evidence any crime would have ever been committed. That sounds like a license to kill and certainly was not what the law intended. To me GZ actually created his own crime scene. TM was on his way back to the home where he was staying, returning from the store. No evidence proves otherwise. And legally he is still a minor no matter how tall he was. My nephew was 6' at 14, that would not have made him an adult. jmo

I don't have a link, but I am pretty sure that it was mentioned in an article early on that GZ told the arresting officers about his family's connection to the justice system. It is not farfetched to me that they passed this on to the DA, and it might have influenced his decision to cut him loose. JMO.

 

[songline]

No one is. Therefore we make subjective judgements based on the "flaws" we know of. For example, does evidence that Trayvon might have once smoked pot make him more likely to attack people, or more likely to crave Cheetohs? And how does this compare, when we are talking about a history of violent assault, to Zimmerman with multiple priors for assault, including assault on a police officer?

Neither is an angel, but that doesn't make both (or either) the devil.



You are not alone in misunderstanding this critical point -- likely because quite a few pundits are deliberately confusing the issue. This case is about homicide, not assault. It is completely irrelevant who attacked who. The ONLY thing relevant is what took place at the moment Zimmerman decided to pull the trigger. Trayvon could have rode up to Zimmerman on a unicycle, hit him in the face with a pie, bonked him with a rubber mallet, pantsed him, and they backflipped his way down the sidewalk, and it has no bearing on the legality of Zimmerman KILLING him. Homicide is only justified if the killer can convince a jury that he had a reasonable fear for his (or someone else's) life and that no other option was available -- he had to be stopped immediately.



Actually I do, having experienced both the threat, and the attempt, many times. However, my experience is not yours or Zimmermans. I will give you this: no one knows how they will react, and all the training in the world doesn't change this. Whether or not someone's reaction was appropriate is subjective, we can and do debate it. The standard for most things like this is "reasonable." What would Joe Blow do in a similar situation. That's why we have juries -- and for a jury to convict ALL TWELVE have to agree that the suspect did not act in a reasonable manner. It's tough to get twelve people to agree what toppings to put on a pizza, so if you can get twelve to agree a shoot was bad it was probably bad.



Nice lesson. I agree. What we do not know we do not know. Where we differ is this:

Because millions of reasonable people believe that the police have failed to do their job here (either due to incompetence, corruption, or outright racism), and given that this department apparently has a history of just this, and given that the police in this case have had plenty of time and have used that time to conceal rather than reveal information, it is reasonable to demand that information.

In other words, we NEED to know what we currently do not know. If the police conduct has been correct, then we need to know this so we can put this mess behind us. If it has not been correct, we need to know this as well so we can remove the cancer and begin healing. What we cannot do is allow this wound to fester, Trayvon and all the future Trayvon's demand better, and we all should as well.

The time for obstruction and games is over. We need these answers today.

IMO we need a thorough investigation. Absolutely and for all the reasons that you pointed out Chris_Texas. It is really important.
But the public will know at the point the research is concluded and it is right time. Otherwise it is the Media case, and it is too big, too important, and should not be a media case at all.

I always feel that things work best when you hold the details till the case comes to either a trial or some other cross road.

 

[JeannaT]

We do know because GZ told LE and we all heard it and nothing indicates TM was doing anything wrong. GZ was suspicious because of other people's behavior in the past and that had nothing to do with TM. TM went to the store and was on his way back only yards from his back porch before he was shot. Was there a suspicion that he was planning on breaking into a home right next to where he was staying?????

GZ was constantly on guard for any reason to suspect certain people. < mod snip > GZ was looking for someone who fit "his" profile of a suspicious person. TM just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. That does not make TM suspicious, that made GZ suspicious of TM because of the behavior of others, not TM's behavior. The rest is history. jmo

That's a real stretch.

 

[curl_in_progress]

Some new thoughts on what I think happened. This is all my opinion based on what I think is the most logical. It's kind of dramatic, but I felt like I needed to take the details into consideration because everything that the witnesses saw or heard needs to be explained. Hope it makes sense!

-Trayvon notices GZ following him and he runs until he gets to the intersection (or the top of the T) of the sidewalk between the houses. He stops running at that point because he's off the street and out of the sight of GZ. He probably does not think that whoever is following him will get out of his car. He feels safer. He continues to walk slowly at this point. His gf calls him back and he's talking and strolling along.

-Once GZ sees TM run, he exits his car and starts to head towards the cut through. He hasn't spotted TM yet, so he doesn't give out his address on his call with the dispatcher. I think GZ then makes it to the intersection of the cut through and sees Trayvon walking down the longer path between the houses, but since he is on the call he doesn't pursue him just yet. Once he sees him, this is towards the end of the call with the dispatcher and when he asks to have the officer call when he arrives so he can tell him where he is. He's spotted Trayvon now, so he isn't going to go back to the mailboxes and this is why he suddenly changes his mind about where to meet the officer. He doesn't want to tell the dispatcher that because he KNOWS he's been told he doesn't need to follow Trayvon. He hangs back a little bit until he finishes the call with the dispatcher. Once he hangs up, he starts down the long path between the houses behind Trayvon.

-Trayvon is now several minutes into his convo with his gf and notices GZ behind him, which is when he tells his gf that this person is behind him again. She tells him to run, but he says he's not going to. (At that point, I might not run either. The only place to go is home and he's 70 yards away which would give this person who is following him the knowledge of knowing where he lives.) Instead of running he turns and asks GZ why he's following him. I think he feels safe about doing that because he's surrounded by houses.

-Rather than GZ keeping his distance and yelling out that he's the neighborhood watch he fires back at Trayvon demanding to know what he's doing there. I think GZ kept moving moving forward and starts yelling at Trayvon. He pushes Trayvon and his call drops. (Maybe because of the way he's holding his phone, it pushes the button that ends the call.) Trayvon gets up and says "what's your problem?" because he's been pushed. They begin to argue verbally.

-Trayvon then attempts to walk away and GZ grabs his arm. GZ probably pulls TM's arm up behind his back and that's when the fight breaks out and the screaming begins.) The two begin to physically fight. On the 911 call where the gunshot is heard made by a woman that has someone named Jeremy in the background, you'll notice that there is a pause before the cries for help begin. Jeremy grows MORE concerned in that moment because he says the police need to come NOW. I think Jeremy saw GZ pull out his gun on Trayvon at that point, because right after he says the police need to come now, we hear Trayvon start yelling HELP. And a few seconds later we hear the gunshot. I think that just before the gunshot, Trayvon is on top and about to get up and retreat. This gives GZ a moment to grab his gun. Trayvon sees the gun and starts screaming help. I think he's on his knees. GZ gets up and points his gun at Trayvon and says, "You're gonna die tonight mother ******" and shoots him square in the chest. (Yes, I think GZ is the one who said this line and NOT Trayvon.) Trayvon grabbed his chest before falling face forward into the grass. This explains why GZ has no blood on him.

-I truly think GZ was enraged because he could not control Trayvon the way he thought he could and because Trayvon got in some good hits on him. So he pulled out his gun and shot him. I fully believe he had a free moment where they were not fighting to pull out his gun. I fully believe he pointed his gun at Trayvon's chest while he was screaming for help. I fully believe he knew what he was doing when he pulled the trigger. Maybe he even heard the police sirens from a distance when he had his gun drawn and KNEW he would be in some SERIOUS **** if Trayvon told the police that GZ had his gun pulled on him. So he shot him because he knew he wouldn't be able to get out of it. No matter how I look at it, I think GZ was fully aware that he was going to shoot Trayvon.

-That shot to the chest was a kill shot and not a lucky shot. GZ had the clarity and control in that moment to shoot Trayvon DEAD CENTER. I think that would be hard to do when wrestling with someone.

Again, ALL speculation and ALL just my opinion.

Anybody have any thoughts on this scenario?

 

[Chris_Texas]

YES you asked why they need to hold things close to the vest. that is separate from why didn't they do a good investigation.

They should have done a good investigation
they should hold the findings close to the vest till the proper time
It is never proper to trial any case in public opinion, the media does not help they just don’t.
They create a money machine for tabloid.

It's a little late for that good investigation. They had the chance and decided not to bother.

The proper time is NOW.

If it is public opinion or conclusions about the police, then the public is where that trail is going to happen. And if the police refuse to hold child killers accountable, or to even try, then what else is left but public opinion?

 

[CathyinTexas]

I have never in my life heard of the height or weight of a person being used in court to determine if they are an adult. Makes no sense to me.

On your link it says Trayvon was 6'3. On the police report it says Trayvon is 6'. Where is the 6'3 coming from? Police had the body, they would have measured it.

I heard GZ's attorney say it on CNN.

 

[songline]

And don't we have a right to certain information since we are all paying for it. jmo

NO. To get the best and most just results they should not be diluting the case.


You pay for your Social Security benefits…THAT IS REALLY your money. Do they tell you how they are spending your money?
The tax money is no longer yours they took it, we never get an accounting.

 

[fran]

ATTENTION PLEASE!

I've been following this thread and yesterday's thread, all weekend. I'd just like to ask posters to:

Please keep the snippy comments to yourself.

Please attack the post, not the poster.

If you're responding to a post and just by quoting a particular post, it appears you're attacking the poster, don't use the quote.

You do not have to respond to every post. If you've already said your opinion on a particular matter, then move on.

Keep the 'you' out of your posts. It makes it personal

Don't tell someone else they're wrong. This is an opinion forum and no one's opinion is either right or wrong, especially because we don't know all the facts. They just look at the same information everyone else has and form a DIFFERENT opnion. That's when you 'agree to disagree' and move on. You don't even have to tell them you disagree with them. If you've already posted a differing opinion, there's no need to continue the conversation. It often times ends up with frustration, hurt feelings, and personal attacks.

Please don't tell other posters how to post.

Please do not talk about modding on the open forum. That's what the alert button and pm's are for.

You may use the 'ignore' feature available with everyone's membership.

If at the end of the day, you're just frustrated, rather than showing it on the forum, why not take a while off the thread or even go for a walk or just sit outside and enjoy the day, it is Easter.

I'm not telling you not to be here and I'm not telling you not to comment if you choose. But I've removed a few posts today and snipped a few posts, and I do not like to do that. All opinions are welcome, provided they stay within our TOS.

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled discussion, 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain

Thank you all for your participation,
fran

 

[LinasK]

I don't think he was shot because of a "feeling". He was shot to prevent Zimmerman's head from being further pounded, IMHO.

There hasn't been evidence so far to show that Zimmerman's head was ever pounded- and I think GZ is a liar! IMO

 

[songline]

It's a little late for that good investigation. They had the chance and decided not to bother.

The proper time is NOW.

If it is public opinion or conclusions about the police, then the public is where that trail is going to happen. And if the police refuse to hold child killers accountable, or to even try, then what else is left but public opinion?

If public opinion is how we run our country we need to start with government.
While we do have legal system, we do not have justice , just look at some cases or at 17,000 inmates released in California 2 years ago.
The fact that I am not in agreement with how LE handled this case, does not mean that it is OK to keep on doing things incorrectly.

NO trial should be held in the media, or public opinion.
You can not get justice that way, you can only stirr the pot that way.

 

[Chris_Texas]

OK now you can compare GZ.
FIRST Let’s look at both accurately, not selectively.
I see TM a bit differently, then your description:
TM's pot bag was not always empty. LOL
TM's locker was found with a screw driver and Ladies Jewelry, hmmm.
TM has gold teeth... allows for judgment here too.
Was sent home from school for the 3rd time, 10 days is never a first timer.

Yes, you are correct to consider these things. You will have to decide for yourself how relevant they are. Do they indicate someone that is likely to randomly attack people and attempt to beat them to death?

But don't stop there. Continue on with Zimmerman. Evaluate his history and decide if he is likely to be involved in initiating and escalating violence. And in the violent incidents he was involved in, what was his excuse?

What was his excuse here, from beginning to end, and how likely are the statements we know he made (describing Trayvon) to be accurate? When he said Trayvon was coming at him with his hand in the waistband of his pants (suggesting he had a gun) was he telling the truth?

 

[songline]

It's a little late for that good investigation. They had the chance and decided not to bother.

The proper time is NOW.

If it is public opinion or conclusions about the police, then the public is where that trail is going to happen. And if the police refuse to hold child killers accountable, or to even try, then what else is left but public opinion?

I know they did not do a good job.
FBI is on it now.
I pray we will have a fair assessment of the situation.

 

[Adrienne37]

NO. To get the best and most just results they should not be diluting the case.


You pay for your Social Security benefits&#8230;THAT IS REALLY your money. Do they tell you how they are spending your money?
The tax money is no longer yours they took it, we never get an accounting.

As it stands right now, there 2,248,216 people demanding answers so I'd say they better get prepared to provide some.



~jmo~