17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #19

[songline]

Yes, you are correct to consider these things. You will have to decide for yourself how relevant they are. Do they indicate someone that is likely to randomly attack people and attempt to beat them to death?

But don't stop there. Continue on with Zimmerman. Evaluate his history and decide if he is likely to be involved in initiating and escalating violence. And in the violent incidents he was involved in, what was his excuse?

What was his excuse here, from beginning to end, and how likely are the statements we know he made (describing Trayvon) to be accurate? When he said Trayvon was coming at him with his hand in the waistband of his pants (suggesting he had a gun) was he telling the truth?

U R Absolutly right.
I was responding to someone who saw only GZs past and was not looking an further.

 

[Isabelle]

If you have jewelry stolen you report it to the police. They ask for a description. Kids don't just steal what they know is good, they tend to take it all so you would know it was missing and what the good stuff is. Even if you only remembered two or three items it would be enough for them to call you and check if any of the jewelry was yours. Whenever you lose that jewelry you claim it on your insurance if it's of any value.

If they had a website with pictures anyone could claim it was their jewelry. LE usually will ask..."Was there also a necklace that is missing and can you describe it?" They don't let you see it unless you can describe it in detail. jmo

If you have anything you value, you have a photo of it.

 

[songline]

As it stands right now, there 2,248,216 people demanding answers so I'd say they better get prepared to provide some.



~jmo~

You can have 10 times as many people and the Investigation should be done thoroughly and correctly.
no they do not owe us anything at all. they DO owe answers to Trayvons family.

We will get the answers when they can give them to us.

 

[LambChop]

That's a real stretch.

Not really, think about it. GZ was actively seeking letters of recommendation to apply to the police academy. Catching another "would be" thief in the act would have been another letter he could have asked for. Getting into the academy was very important to GZ, we all can admit to that. So not so much a stetch to believe it. jmo

 

[Isabelle]

But what led to the altercation which may (or may not) have resulted in GZ's head being pounded? George's 'feeling' that Trayvon was up to no good. That was my point.

Trayvon had every right to defend himself against GZ. It works both ways. No one can know what Trayvon or GZ felt in the moments before the murder.

 

[Isabelle]

Is that even physically possible? To shoot someone while they are lying flat on top of you while using both hands (which you would have to with someone who has no hair) to bang your head and then be able to get your gun out and shoot that person without risking shooting yourself??? There is a spot in the middle of a male's body that could render him helpless in seconds but GZ risked going for his gun????? My "feeling" is TM was trying to get away and GZ pulled the gun out and they both panicked. jmo

And with that scenario Trayvon most likely was sitting on the gun. Very fishy.

 

[LinasK]

Some new thoughts on what I think happened. This is all my opinion based on what I think is the most logical. It's kind of dramatic, but I felt like I needed to take the details into consideration because everything that the witnesses saw or heard needs to be explained. Hope it makes sense!

-Trayvon notices GZ following him and he runs until he gets to the intersection (or the top of the T) of the sidewalk between the houses. He stops running at that point because he's off the street and out of the sight of GZ. He probably does not think that whoever is following him will get out of his car. He feels safer. He continues to walk slowly at this point. His gf calls him back and he's talking and strolling along.

-Once GZ sees TM run, he exits his car and starts to head towards the cut through. He hasn't spotted TM yet, so he doesn't give out his address on his call with the dispatcher. I think GZ then makes it to the intersection of the cut through and sees Trayvon walking down the longer path between the houses, but since he is on the call he doesn't pursue him just yet. Once he sees him, this is towards the end of the call with the dispatcher and when he asks to have the officer call when he arrives so he can tell him where he is. He's spotted Trayvon now, so he isn't going to go back to the mailboxes and this is why he suddenly changes his mind about where to meet the officer. He doesn't want to tell the dispatcher that because he KNOWS he's been told he doesn't need to follow Trayvon. He hangs back a little bit until he finishes the call with the dispatcher. Once he hangs up, he starts down the long path between the houses behind Trayvon.

-Trayvon is now several minutes into his convo with his gf and notices GZ behind him, which is when he tells his gf that this person is behind him again. She tells him to run, but he says he's not going to. (At that point, I might not run either. The only place to go is home and he's 70 yards away which would give this person who is following him the knowledge of knowing where he lives.) Instead of running he turns and asks GZ why he's following him. I think he feels safe about doing that because he's surrounded by houses.

-Rather than GZ keeping his distance and yelling out that he's the neighborhood watch he fires back at Trayvon demanding to know what he's doing there. I think GZ kept moving moving forward and starts yelling at Trayvon. He pushes Trayvon and his call drops. (Maybe because of the way he's holding his phone, it pushes the button that ends the call.) Trayvon gets up and says "what's your problem?" because he's been pushed. They begin to argue verbally.

-Trayvon then attempts to walk away and GZ grabs his arm. GZ probably pulls TM's arm up behind his back and that's when the fight breaks out and the screaming begins.) The two begin to physically fight. On the 911 call where the gunshot is heard made by a woman that has someone named Jeremy in the background, you'll notice that there is a pause before the cries for help begin. Jeremy grows MORE concerned in that moment because he says the police need to come NOW. I think Jeremy saw GZ pull out his gun on Trayvon at that point, because right after he says the police need to come now, we hear Trayvon start yelling HELP. And a few seconds later we hear the gunshot. I think that just before the gunshot, Trayvon is on top and about to get up and retreat. This gives GZ a moment to grab his gun. Trayvon sees the gun and starts screaming help. I think he's on his knees. GZ gets up and points his gun at Trayvon and says, "You're gonna die tonight mother ******" and shoots him square in the chest. (Yes, I think GZ is the one who said this line and NOT Trayvon.) Trayvon grabbed his chest before falling face forward into the grass. This explains why GZ has no blood on him.

-I truly think GZ was enraged because he could not control Trayvon the way he thought he could and because Trayvon got in some good hits on him. So he pulled out his gun and shot him. I fully believe he had a free moment where they were not fighting to pull out his gun. I fully believe he pointed his gun at Trayvon's chest while he was screaming for help. I fully believe he knew what he was doing when he pulled the trigger. Maybe he even heard the police sirens from a distance when he had his gun drawn and KNEW he would be in some SERIOUS **** if Trayvon told the police that GZ had his gun pulled on him. So he shot him because he knew he wouldn't be able to get out of it. No matter how I look at it, I think GZ was fully aware that he was going to shoot Trayvon.

-That shot to the chest was a kill shot and not a lucky shot. GZ had the clarity and control in that moment to shoot Trayvon DEAD CENTER. I think that would be hard to do when wrestling with someone.

Again, ALL speculation and ALL just my opinion.

Anybody have any thoughts on this scenario?

I think you're mostly right, but Trayvon didn't punch him, even though he had a right to. There were no bruises on TM's knuckles.

 

[Elley Mae]

If they had found the jewelry's rightful owner, and this was all a misunderstanding, I'm SURE that would have been mentioned by Trayvon's supporters. The article I read said it hadn't been resolved.

He wasn't arrested because no one knows whose the jewelry is - whoever owns it was never found.

right!
How many people actually go to the police looking after the jewelry that's been stolen. Most I would think would let insurance take care of it. If they had it. Lets face it, it finds it's way to the pawn shop or the thief's g/f gets it.

 

[LambChop]

If you have anything you value, you have a photo of it.

Well I was in Aruba at the time and just received the piece from a friend. It was not expensive so it was in my condo along with my cell phone on the table when we stepped out for about 20 minutes. I reported it because I wanted it back, along with my cell phone. Most people don't take pictures of costume jewelry that looks like Pandora and that is all it was. LE came because they broke into my apartment, along with three other's and LE wanted to know what was missing. My good jewelry was either on me or in the safe.

You do not have to have a picture to identify your jewelry, you just have to describe it in detail which most people are able to do. It helps if you have pictures and you are not sure what is stolen. Your insurance company does not require you to take a picture even though it is an excellent idea to do so. jmo

 

[curl_in_progress]

I was just watching CNN and the reporter just mentioned that she had GZ's lawyers scheduled for an interview now and they both were a no call and no show. I wonder if that arrest warrant for GZ went out and that's why they suddenly backed out? I would blame it on Easter Sunday, but surely they knew what day it was before they agreed to do the interview?

 

[JeannaT]

I was just watching CNN and the reporter just mentioned that she had GZ's lawyers scheduled for an interview now and they both were a no call and no show. I wonder if that arrest warrant for GZ went out and that's why they suddenly backed out? I would blame it on Easter Sunday, but surely they knew what day it was before they agreed to do the interview?

Filing an arrest warrant on Easter Sunday?

 

[Isabelle]

I was just watching CNN and the reporter just mentioned that she had GZ's lawyers scheduled for an interview now and they both were a no call and no show. I wonder if that arrest warrant for GZ went out and that's why they suddenly backed out? I would blame it on Easter Sunday, but surely they knew what day it was before they agreed to do the interview?

Now we will really be on pins and needles!

 

[rossva]

It is quite possible the police units drove right in front of Taffe's house; it would be the logical path to get to Zimmerman's house.

Don't have a problem believing he saw the helicopter, but possibly you could explain how, when he "ran out to the street", he was able to not only count the cars but read the agency names on the doors as well? Surely he didn't run down there from almost three football fields away and risk losing that intimate, "in the know" neighbor image he's been trying to project from the beginning?
:what::what::what:

JMO, JHMO, MOO, etc.

 

[curl_in_progress]

Filing an arrest warrant on Easter Sunday?

Maybe they wanted to do it quietly when the public is not paying attention. Or maybe it went out last night. This case is a pretty big deal.

 

[songline]

No one is. Therefore we make subjective judgements based on the "flaws" we know of. For example, does evidence that Trayvon might have once smoked pot make him more likely to attack people, or more likely to crave Cheetohs? And how does this compare, when we are talking about a history of violent assault, to Zimmerman with multiple priors for assault, including assault on a police officer?

Neither is an angel, but that doesn't make both (or either) the devil.
Pot smokers are generally passive not aggressive, but we bring it all out to show character, that neither is sqeaky clean.


You are not alone in misunderstanding this critical point -- likely because quite a few pundits are deliberately confusing the issue. This case is about homicide, not assault. It is completely irrelevant who attacked who. The ONLY thing relevant is what took place at the moment Zimmerman decided to pull the trigger. Trayvon could have rode up to Zimmerman on a unicycle, hit him in the face with a pie, bonked him with a rubber mallet, pantsed him, and they backflipped his way down the sidewalk, and it has no bearing on the legality of Zimmerman KILLING him. Homicide is only justified if the killer can convince a jury that he had a reasonable fear for his (or someone else's) life and that no other option was available -- he had to be stopped immediately.
Not so sure yet - that is the point. NOT YET SURE. Seems there is a law in Florida that tell people they can shoot if they are in a life threatening situation. I don’t like the law, I would not make such a lsw it is a mad mans heaven. GUESS WHAT it is the law.

Actually I do, having experienced both the threat, and the attempt, many times. However, my experience is not yours or Zimmermans. I will give you this: no one knows how they will react, and all the training in the world doesn't change this. Whether or not someone's reaction was appropriate is subjective, we can and do debate it. The standard for most things like this is "reasonable." What would Joe Blow do in a similar situation. That's why we have juries -- and for a jury to convict ALL TWELVE have to agree that the suspect did not act in a reasonable manner. It's tough to get twelve people to agree what toppings to put on a pizza, so if you can get twelve to agree a shoot was bad it was probably bad.
To get a "reasonable" assessment we have to have all the pieces of the puzzle, there are 2 crucial minutes in this puzzle that we do not have. I wish he did not have a gun, I wish, the police did a thorough investigation, I wish Trayvon did not get shot, or in the least not shot to death.
But given what we do have – we have to wait for a thorough investigation, and hope to get all the pieces of the puzzle so that we can make a reasonable assessment.

Nice lesson. I agree. What we do not know we do not know. Where we differ is this:

Because millions of reasonable people believe that the police have failed to do their job here (either due to incompetence, corruption, or outright racism), and given that this department apparently has a history of just this, and given that the police in this case have had plenty of time and have used that time to conceal rather than reveal information, it is reasonable to demand that information.

In other words, we NEED to know what we currently do not know. If the police conduct has been correct, then we need to know this so we can put this mess behind us. If it has not been correct, we need to know this as well so we can remove the cancer and begin healing. What we cannot do is allow this wound to fester, Trayvon and all the future Trayvon's demand better, and we all should as well.

The time for obstruction and games is over. We need these answers today.

I agree that this police department should have a few heads removed from their position.
I have been thinking this before this case. they do have a history.

 

[Peliman]

I think you're mostly right, but Trayvon didn't punch him, even though he had a right to. There were no bruises on TM's knuckles.

Respectfully I have to disagree with the idea a punch would cause bruising or abrasion. Maybe if one hits a wall or other hard surface. One could also use a palm or elbow thrust, not to mention Trayvon was a person of color making it more difficult to notice. JMO

 

[JeannaT]

Maybe they wanted to do it quietly when the public is not paying attention. Or maybe it went out last night. This case is a pretty big deal.

IMHO, the only thing they would want to do quietly is not make the arrest. I think they are waiting and waiting for the passions to die down before taking the dangerous step of announcing there will be arrest.

 

[octobermoon]

Filing an arrest warrant on Easter Sunday?

I was thinking more that today would be a good day for GZ to surrender under his own recognizance (sp??) IF there were to be an arrest. Would keep the media at bay, most the public is busy or like me wore out from being up so early.

I am only speculating. This is only my opinion. Not trying to start a rumor.

JMO MOO IMO

 

[LambChop]

And with that scenario Trayvon most likely was sitting on the gun. Very fishy.

The way GZ describes it TM sitting on him banging GZ's head TM had to have been practically sitting on the gun. GZ places him there so wouldn't it make sense that GZ would try to get TM off of him and away from the gun??? Was TM trying to keep GZ from pulling out the gun???? There are a lot of unanswered questions. jmo

 

[Allusonz]

No. I had a piece of jewelry stolen and I had to describe it. I think it's common sense even if someone finds a piece of jewelry and you call claiming it's yours they ask you to describe it. They may say we found a watch, ring, etc. but it's up to you to give it some detail. No one is just going to hand it over without an accurate description. You don't need a photo if it's your jewelry you can describe it in detail and the other person is holding it. jmo

I would just like to point out that not everyone will report a theft and there are varying reasons.

As with insurance companies, some will not report a theft if it is less than the deductable.