17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #32

[annalia]

Yes, but did Zimmerman know that? If not, what difference does it make?

So, instead of sneaking in.... get invited as a guest to a private gated community. Then, go for a walk. Leave the community, maybe going to a convenience store to get some candy. Then return to the gated community, making sure your hoodie is on before you re-enter, making sure you walk around slowly, "checking stuff out", and see what happens. Then, when you get followed by a security guard or security watch person, try to lose him. Then, after you lose him, sneak up behind him, confront him for following you and harassing you, hit him in the face with such force that his nose breaks and he's knocked to the ground, jump on him, and start bashing his head on the sidewalk.

Another way to go is to thank the security person for his diligence, and politely and respectfully explain why you're there.

Do you think one of these approaches might be more likely to get you shot?

What security person? What security guard? :waitasec:

GZ had no security uniform on, he was not in a marked security car. Trayvon had no idea that GZ was anything but a strange adult following him. Since Trayvon had no idea who this strange person was, his running away was to get away from a stranger not a security person.

So I think that makes the rest of the scenario moot.

Again, Trayvon had every right to be in that development, yes he even had the right to put his hoodie up in the rain.

Re the bolded, that may be the story that has been given by GZ but it is far from an established fact.

JMHO

 

[MaryAnn]

What do you think is the reason he got out of his vehicle? He obviously had a reason, because he did get out. What do you think it might have been?


Do you think he was thinking this might be his chance to shoot someone? Maybe he planned to follow him, hoped for a confrontation, so he could have an excuse to shoot him. Is that what you're thinking?

Or, maybe he took his (unpaid) "security" job a little too seriously? Maybe he saw it as his duty to figure out why someone unfamiliar/suspicious is in the gated community? Maybe he was telling the truth when he was talking to the police dispatcher about being concerned the suspicious looking person would get away before the police got there, so he decided to follow him. Maybe that's why he started running when Trayvon started running?

Seems to me that the latter explanation is much more likely to be true. Gated communities are very different from public communities. One of the main reasons people live in gated communities is for the security, and much of that security stems from treating anyone who is unfamiliar as being suspicious.

If you don't know what I mean, try putting on a hoodie and sneaking into a gated community, especially one with a security team (paid or voluntary), and see what happens. Then, when you get followed by a security guard or security watch person, try to lose him. Then, after you lose him, sneak up behind him, confront him for following you and harassing you, hit him in the face with such force that his nose breaks and he's knocked to the ground, jump on him, and start bashing his head on the sidewalk (note: a photo showing bleeding on the back of Zimmerman's head minutes after the shooting has been released).Think you won't get shot? <mod snip>

BBM There is not one ounce of proof that any of that happened. Even the investigator that took the stand at the bond hearing said his injuries weren't consistent with his head being bashed on concrete. He said they were more like scrape marks. If someone unidentified was following me suspiciously like GZ was doing and snuck up behind me believe you me I'd do anything to protect myself. Even if Trayvon did punch GZ I think it was Trayvon's right to defend himself. Plus Trayvon is the one dead. Why wouldn't GZ make up any story to save his own butt, Trayvon can't defend himself and that's what is so sad in this case.

 

[Sensei]

Yes, but did Zimmerman know that? If not, what difference does it make?

So, instead of sneaking in.... get invited as a guest to a private gated community. Then, go for a walk. Leave the community, maybe going to a convenience store to get some candy. Then return to the gated community, making sure your hoodie is on before you re-enter, making sure you walk around slowly, "checking stuff out", and see what happens. Then, when you get followed by a security guard or security watch person, try to lose him. Then, after you lose him, sneak up behind him, confront him for following you and harassing you, hit him in the face with such force that his nose breaks and he's knocked to the ground, jump on him, and start bashing his head on the sidewalk.

Another way to go is to thank the security person for his diligence, and politely and respectfully explain why you're there.

Do you think one of these approaches might be more likely to get you shot?

your hypothetical is disingenuous since there was NO way for Trayvon to know that George Zimmerman was neighborhood watch...he did not have a t-shirt or a hat or a reflective vest to show that he was anything other than some random stranger who was following him for some nefarious purpose.
he never claims, nor did anyone who heard anything on the phone hear GZ identify himself as neighborhood watch, and I don't know about anyone else, but I would not if followed on a deserted street at night by some random guy who seemed to be too interested in what I was doing, I just would not be inclined to go up to them and politely and respectfully explain why I was walking on the street.

As far as the jumping on and bashing of head...well all that remains to be discovered, since there are various stories and at this point I tend to discount all of them, since at least one of them is a lie....GZ claims he was attacked from behind, then he was attacked after asking a question, then he was attacked at a point when he would have still been on the phone with the LE dispatch...no no no, I will just wait and see what actual evidence says since GZ says too much and all of it can't be true. IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[LynnM]

Yes, but did Zimmerman know that? If not, what difference does it make?

So, instead of sneaking in.... get invited as a guest to a private gated community. Then, go for a walk. Leave the community, maybe going to a convenience store to get some candy. Then return to the gated community, making sure your hoodie is on before you re-enter, making sure you walk around slowly, "checking stuff out", and see what happens. Then, when you get followed by a security guard or security watch person, try to lose him. Then, after you lose him, sneak up behind him, confront him for following you and harassing you, hit him in the face with such force that his nose breaks and he's knocked to the ground, jump on him, and start bashing his head on the sidewalk.

Another way to go is to thank the security person for his diligence, and politely and respectfully explain why you're there.

Do you think one of these approaches might be more likely to get you shot?

There is no evidence that George Zimmerman ever identified himself as any kind of security person or neighborhood watchman so why would Trayvon thank him for following him? As for the rest of it, I don't believe Trayvon sneaked up behind him at all.

 

[impatientredhead]

Oh, for the love of God, how is this possible? I know, I know, it's how the law works but that's a horrible abuse of it. Judge only or jury trial? I'd like to know how many bozos participated in that decision. :what:

Let me go find my link. The stabbing of the radio thief was a judge not a jury, but there was a real mix of them. I don't remember if the speed enforcement guy was judge or jury. BRB

 

[Phoenixfla]

BBM, Except that GZ was not LE...he's not a cop, so even if he did see Trayvon breaking into a car or a house, he has NO authority beyond the authority of the average citizen He had no authority to detain anyone, and in fact detaining Trayvon would have been a CRIME. So while it may be true that he thought Trayvon was suspicious, he was not empowered to legally do anything other than call LE, and following Trayvon was superflous since he had no power or authority to do anything else no matter what he saw and whether or not Trayvon "got away".

Just because I take the speed limit in front of my house a bit too seriously, does not give me the right to stop motorists and issue speeding tickets or set spike strips in the road...I am not a cop...GZ was not a cop, and he had fulfilled his duty to his neighborhood watch when he called LE,.

But there is no evidence that George tried to "detain" Trayvon. I believe that George was just observing Trayvon, in all likelyhood to be able to report to the police once they arrived. He may have walked to the alleyway, but I believe it was just to continue to keep an eye on the person whom was acting suspiciously. I say suspiciously based on the fact that George felt he may have been on drugs. In my opinion George must have seen something that made him consider the possibly that Trayvon could be under the influence of drugs.

 

[Sensei]

Do you get severance if you resign in a no confidence vote? I know some severance packages are costly but I am not sure if the no confidence and/or him being a public official changes that. I would like to think our local police chief doesn't get a severance package if he is outed in a no confidence vote. The outcry right now might be about TM, but the residence of Sanford were talking about longterm internal problems and a lack of trust in the police. Fresh blood couldn't have hurt, even just a fresh face that could say I can't right the wrongs that happened in the past, but lets work together going forward. What is the public suppose to say to a chief they wanted out and one that tried to quit? And how can he possibly do his job sucessfully? Seems like a no win.

Since he is in effect under contract, I believe that they have to buy him out of the time on his contract or pay him his salary...so either come up with a severance that is acceptable, or pay him anyway, and that could get costly.. and even more costly if they have to hire someone to replace him and still pay him also but there may be a morals clause or some form of clause for non performance that they can use to save them from having to negotiate, and this is all just from what I gathered listening to various news media so I do not stand by it as totally accurate. I do agree however that it does appear to be a no win situation.

 

[uvamerica]

Yes, but did Zimmerman know that? If not, what difference does it make?

So, instead of sneaking in.... get invited as a guest to a private gated community. Then, go for a walk. Leave the community, maybe going to a convenience store to get some candy. Then return to the gated community, making sure your hoodie is on before you re-enter, making sure you walk around slowly, "checking stuff out", and see what happens. Then, when you get followed by a security guard or security watch person, try to lose him. Then, after you lose him, sneak up behind him, confront him for following you and harassing you, hit him in the face with such force that his nose breaks and he's knocked to the ground, jump on him, and start bashing his head on the sidewalk.

Another way to go is to thank the security person for his diligence, and politely and respectfully explain why you're there.

Do you think one of these approaches might be more likely to get you shot?

Seriously ?
GZ is NOT a security person for 1. GZ had no right to follow TM or to carry a gun under the rules of NW. GZ crossed the line by leaving his truck with his gun and not listening to the dispatcher. Blaming the victim has no place here. :banghead:

 

[momshrink]

I really wonder if it comes down to dollars and cents, if the severance package is so generous that it is financially feasible to keep him until they can find a way to accept that resignation without having to spend as much money. This whole thing is just crazy IMO, I agree though how is Lee supposed to lead the department after the no confidence vote, and yet they refuse his resignation...I don't get it.

I wonder how much this has to do with the ongoing justice dept investigation?
I wonder if they prefer to fire him rather than allow him to resign?
I also think money will be the deciding factor. How much will he get if fired vs. resigning?
JMO I really have no idea.

 

[Nova]

He could, but why would he want to? If judge grants immunity then Zimmerman will not go on trial and will be immune from civil lawsuits too.

True, but based on the discussion we had many threads ago, it seemed the burden of proof was much higher at a SYG hearing than when pleading self-defense in a trial-in-chief. Maybe MO'M doesn't want the bad p.r. of losing a SYG hearing when he thinks he can make the lower standard of pleading self-defense later.

But the poster who said MO'M is probably just keeping his cards to himself is probably right.

 

[jjenny]

BBM There is not one ounce of proof that any of that happened. Even the investigator that took the stand at the bond hearing said his injuries weren't consistent with his head being bashed on concrete. He said they were more like scrape marks. If someone unidentified was following me suspiciously like GZ was doing and snuck up behind me believe you me I'd do anything to protect myself. Even if Trayvon did punch GZ I think it was Trayvon's right to defend himself. Plus Trayvon is the one dead. Why wouldn't GZ make up any story to save his own butt, Trayvon can't defend himself and that's what is so sad in this case.

But when defense attorney questioned him he said the injuries were consistent.

 

[Sensei]

But there is no evidence that George tried to "detain" Trayvon. I believe that George was just observing Trayvon, in all likelyhood to be able to report to the police once they arrived. He may have walked to the alleyway, but I believe it was just to continue to keep an eye on the person whom was acting suspiciously. I say suspiciously based on the fact that George felt he may have been on drugs. In my opinion George must have seen something that made him consider the possibly that Trayvon could be under the influence of drugs.

And that would be a very reasonable theory, except that we have Chief Lee stating that GZ got bashed because he asked a question, something like what are you doing here, and we have the girlfriend who heard him ask a similar question....and that pretty much blows the keep an eye on him from a distance theory out of the water, since he obviously made a statement to PD that he asked that question for the Police Chief to have made that ridiculous statement, and the girlfriend heard it, so he was NOT at a distance keeping an eye on Trayvon he was up close and personal and asking questions...IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

BBM

Yer forgetting one very important piece of the puzzle.......hth was Tray supposed to know who GZ was??? He could have been a crazy person for all Tray knew.

I'm not forgetting that at all. It has no relevance whatsoever, since GZ was breaking no laws for simply following someone, especially in a private gated community.

Being followed by a crazy person is a pretty unlikely situation in a gated community. Much more likely is it's someone like a busybody on the board of the HOA, or some other do-gooder resident snooping around to make sure nobody unauthorized is in the community (as GZ turned out to be).

But the more important point is that noticing someone unfamiliar walking around, thinking they're suspicious, calling the police to report them, and getting out of one's vehicle to follow them, even if told by the police dispatcher that that is unnecessary, is all perfectly legal. As far as I know, there is absolutely nothing legally wrong with doing any and all of that, and it's a perfectly normal and reasonable thing to do in a private gated community, especially by the neighborhood watch dude.

 

[momshrink]

What do you think is the reason he got out of his vehicle? He obviously had a reason, because he did get out. What do you think it might have been?


Do you think he was thinking this might be his chance to shoot someone? Maybe he planned to follow him, hoped for a confrontation, so he could have an excuse to shoot him. Is that what you're thinking?

Or, maybe he took his (unpaid) "security" job a little too seriously? Maybe he saw it as his duty to figure out why someone unfamiliar/suspicious is in the gated community? Maybe he was telling the truth when he was talking to the police dispatcher about being concerned the suspicious looking person would get away before the police got there, so he decided to follow him. Maybe that's why he started running when Trayvon started running?

Seems to me that the latter explanation is much more likely to be true. Gated communities are very different from public communities. One of the main reasons people live in gated communities is for the security, and much of that security stems from treating anyone who is unfamiliar as being suspicious.

If you don't know what I mean, try putting on a hoodie and sneaking into a gated community, especially one with a security team (paid or voluntary), and see what happens. Then, when you get followed by a security guard or security watch person, try to lose him. Then, after you lose him, sneak up behind him, confront him for following you and harassing you, hit him in the face with such force that his nose breaks and he's knocked to the ground, jump on him, and start bashing his head on the sidewalk (note: a photo showing bleeding on the back of Zimmerman's head minutes after the shooting has been released).

Think you won't get shot? <mod snip>

:wagon:

 

[Dr.Fessel]

But when defense attorney questioned him he said the injuries were consistent.

He did not say it was consistent with getting his head beat over and over on cement.

 

[Nova]

Exactly, If MOM feels that they have a really good chance after seeing the discovery then there will most likely be a SYG hearing, but they do NOT want to have this hearing if there is a significant chance that they will lose because first George will HAVE to testify at that hearing, in a trial he would not have to but in that he has no shot at getting the immunity if he does not testify and what he says is then information that the SA could cross him on at trial if he were to choose to testify. A SYG hearing will give the Prosecutor a preview of exactly what his defense is going to be at trial and precisely what story she is going to have to discredit....so if there is a chance that they stand to lose that hearing it will very likely not happen. IMO JMHO and stuff.

Are we SURE that GZ will have to testify if there is a SYG hearing?

I know it sounds logical, but when we were researching SYG many threads back, there was an actual legal source that discussed how the defendant does NOT have to take the stand to assert SYG. His lawyer may argue SYG based on the known facts of the case without the defendant's testimony.

I admit I don't know whether that point applied to the SYG hearing, a SYG defense at trial or both.

 

[Sensei]

But when defense attorney questioned him he said the injuries were consistent.

Yes, consistant with his head hitting something harder than his head, and that could have been but was not limited to concrete but he did not say that Trayvon caused the injuries and we have nothing except GZ's conflicting statements that this is so....he also said that there were inconsistant statements and physical evidence that did not match the statements that GZ gave, so that is no help either since I happen to have an injury consistant with burning myself with a curling iron, ( I don't really) but it actually happened when I stunned myself with my cattle prod....and if I get petulant with him I might tell the Police that my boyfriend burned me with his solder iron and the wound would be consistant...IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[impatientredhead]

Let me go find my link. The stabbing of the radio thief was a judge not a jury, but there was a real mix of them. I don't remember if the speed enforcement guy was judge or jury. BRB

It was a judge at the stand your ground hearing. Those details and much more in the longer linked article. As a reading note, the Garcia case referenced by the prosecutor who lost that case that would be the stabber who ran his victim down a full city block, didn't call the place to say the man was injured, went home and went to bed after cleaning up and hiding or destroying evidence.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/article1222930.ece

"Mr. Zimmerman's unnecessary pursuit and confrontation of Trayvon Martin elevated the prospect of a violent episode and does not seem to be an act of self-defense as defined by the castle doctrine" wrote state Rep. Dennis Baxley, the Ocala Republican who co-authored the law, in a column March 21 for FOXNews.com. "There is no protection in the 'stand your ground' law for anyone who pursues and confronts people."

Lawyers say the bill's supporters are either uninformed or politically motivated.

"That's not what the law says," said Steven Romine, a Tampa Bay lawyer who has invoked "stand your ground" successfully. "They might think that in their own heads, but it's just not true.

"If you're doing something legal, no matter what the act is, and you're attacked, it's in that moment that you have a right to stand your ground."

Prosecutors, who are generally critical of the law, agree.

"The real issue is what happens around the 60 seconds prior to the shooting," said Ed Griffith, a spokesman for the Miami-Dade State Attorney's Office, which brought the charges against Greyston Garcia. "Everything else has emotional content, but from a legal perspective, it all comes down to the 60 seconds before the incident."

One of Romine's cases is a prime example. In 2008, his client, Charles Podany, noticed a truck speeding past his house in Thonotosassa, where his children play in the front yard. Podany fetched his handgun and rode his bicycle down the street to the house where the truck was parked to get a license plate number.

He found himself in a confrontation with Casey Landes, 24, who had been a passenger in the truck. Landes, legally drunk, attacked the smaller Podany and wound up on top of him. Podany drew his weapon and fired twice. The second bullet entered Landes' left cheek and struck the back of his skull, killing him instantly.

Podany was charged with manslaughter. But before trial, a judge ruled that despite initiating the confrontation by arming himself and riding his bicycle to the speeder's house, Podany was in a place he had a legal right to be and he was carrying a weapon he had a legal right to carry. He found that Podany feared for his life and had the right to defend himself with deadly force.

"There is not an exception to the law that says if you're doing something stupid, or risky, or not in your best interest, that 'stand your ground' doesn't apply," Romine said.

 

[suzihawk]

I'm not forgetting that at all. It has no relevance whatsoever, since GZ was breaking no laws for simply following someone, especially in a private gated community.

Being followed by a crazy person is a pretty unlikely situation in a gated community. Much more likely is it's someone like a busybody on the board of the HOA, or some other do-gooder resident snooping around to make sure nobody unauthorized is in the community (as GZ turned out to be).

But the more important point is that noticing someone unfamiliar walking around, thinking they're suspicious, calling the police to report them, and getting out of one's vehicle to follow them, even if told by the police dispatcher that that is unnecessary, is all perfectly legal. As far as I know, there is absolutely nothing legally wrong with doing any and all of that, and it's a perfectly normal and reasonable thing to do in a private gated community, especially by the neighborhood watch dude.

LOL What would prevent a nut or whacko from living in a gated community? Or a pedaphile? Or a rapist? They don't have signs on their foreheads, ya know.

 

[jjenny]

Are we SURE that GZ will have to testify if there is a SYG hearing?

I know it sounds logical, but when we were researching SYG many threads back, there was an actual legal source that discussed how the defendant does NOT have to take the stand to assert SYG. His lawyer may argue SYG based on the known facts of the case without the defendant's testimony.

I admit I don't know whether that point applied to the SYG hearing, a SYG defense at trial or both.

He doesn't have to. When THs say "he has to" they mean if defense wants to win SYG hearing they should put GZ on the stand. But there is no law that says GZ has to testify as far as I can tell.