17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #32

[Nova]

Is there a traditional self-defense law, just plain old justifiable homicide, or in FL is it Stand Your Ground?

Sorry, hope that makes sense...

Yes, Florida has both. (In fact, that's why critics say SYG was entirely unnecessary.) You can find discussions on both laws in earlier threads, but you'll have to go a ways back...

 

[uvamerica]

I'm not forgetting that at all. It has no relevance whatsoever, since GZ was breaking no laws for simply following someone, especially in a private gated community.

Being followed by a crazy person is a pretty unlikely situation in a gated community. Much more likely is it's someone like a busybody on the board of the HOA, or some other do-gooder resident snooping around to make sure nobody unauthorized is in the community (as GZ turned out to be).

But the more important point is that noticing someone unfamiliar walking around, thinking they're suspicious, calling the police to report them, and getting out of one's vehicle to follow them, even if told by the police dispatcher that that is unnecessary, is all perfectly legal. As far as I know, there is absolutely nothing legally wrong with doing any and all of that, and it's a perfectly normal and reasonable thing to do in a private gated community, especially by the neighborhood watch dude.

Well, Trayvon just happened to be followed by a crazy person (GZ) and lost his life because of him. It is not perfectly normal for a NW to follow and shoot a person they believe as suspicious, when it is in the rules NOT to !! MOO

 

[jaded cat]

It was a judge at the stand your ground hearing. Those details and much more in the longer linked article.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/article1222930.ece

"Mr. Zimmerman's unnecessary pursuit and confrontation of Trayvon Martin elevated the prospect of a violent episode and does not seem to be an act of self-defense as defined by the castle doctrine" wrote state Rep. Dennis Baxley, the Ocala Republican who co-authored the law, in a column March 21 for FOXNews.com. "There is no protection in the 'stand your ground' law for anyone who pursues and confronts people."

Lawyers say the bill's supporters are either uninformed or politically motivated.

"That's not what the law says," said Steven Romine, a Tampa Bay lawyer who has invoked "stand your ground" successfully. "They might think that in their own heads, but it's just not true.

"If you're doing something legal, no matter what the act is, and you're attacked, it's in that moment that you have a right to stand your ground."

Prosecutors, who are generally critical of the law, agree.

"The real issue is what happens around the 60 seconds prior to the shooting," said Ed Griffith, a spokesman for the Miami-Dade State Attorney's Office, which brought the charges against Greyston Garcia. "Everything else has emotional content, but from a legal perspective, it all comes down to the 60 seconds before the incident."

One of Romine's cases is a prime example. In 2008, his client, Charles Podany, noticed a truck speeding past his house in Thonotosassa, where his children play in the front yard. Podany fetched his handgun and rode his bicycle down the street to the house where the truck was parked to get a license plate number.

He found himself in a confrontation with Casey Landes, 24, who had been a passenger in the truck. Landes, legally drunk, attacked the smaller Podany and wound up on top of him. Podany drew his weapon and fired twice. The second bullet entered Landes' left cheek and struck the back of his skull, killing him instantly.

Podany was charged with manslaughter. But before trial, a judge ruled that despite initiating the confrontation by arming himself and riding his bicycle to the speeder's house, Podany was in a place he had a legal right to be and he was carrying a weapon he had a legal right to carry. He found that Podany feared for his life and had the right to defend himself with deadly force.

"There is not an exception to the law that says if you're doing something stupid, or risky, or not in your best interest, that 'stand your ground' doesn't apply," Romine said.

Thank you for posting this! I'm going back to read the article. I'm also stunned at this decision and in shock that the judge could even think that way.

:what: :waitasec:

 

[Sensei]

Are we SURE that GZ will have to testify if there is a SYG hearing?

I know it sounds logical, but when we were researching SYG many threads back, there was an actual legal source that discussed how the defendant does NOT have to take the stand to assert SYG. His lawyer may argue SYG based on the known facts of the case without the defendant's testimony.

I admit I don't know whether that point applied to the SYG hearing, a SYG defense at trial or both.

he will not HAVE to in the sense that it is required, and many SYG hearings could be conducted without having the shooter or the person who is asking for immunity take the stand, but all cases are different, and in this one there IS no other witness...the only other witness is dead, and so GZ does not have nearly as good a chance of convincing a Judge that he acted in self defense if he does not get on the stand and tell his story since there appears to be a scarcity of evidence to show that it was in fact self defense with his own words telling how he was following and how suspicious he thought this guy was....It is not a shoo in, but it seems to be very likely he will if there is actually a hearing IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[Adrienne37]

Boohoo, poor city of Sanford. It's hard to decide which one to feel more sorry for, Zimmerman or Sanford.


Sanford police dispute criticism over Trayvon Martin’s death...

“We are not that monster that they are showing on TV, in the newspaper,” O’Connor said. “That it's not true, in spite of what some people would say, it's not true.”

He said they have been financially and emotionally stretched.

O’Connor said they have maxed out overtime after having to add extra patrols for rallies and other events that have taken place. He said officers have been working six or seven days straight.



http://www.cfnews13.com/content/new...icles/cfn/2012/4/24/sanford_police_dispu.html

 

[Ninety5rpm]

And that would be a very reasonable theory, except that we have Chief Lee stating that GZ got bashed because he asked a question, something like what are you doing here, and we have the girlfriend who heard him ask a similar question....and that pretty much blows the keep an eye on him from a distance theory out of the water, since he obviously made a statement to PD that he asked that question for the Police Chief to have made that ridiculous statement, and the girlfriend heard it, so he was NOT at a distance keeping an eye on Trayvon he was up close and personal and asking questions...IMO JMHO and stuff.

There is nothing unlawful about asking that question, and it certainly does not justify battery, so I don't understand why that's relevant.

Besides, GZ's story is that he was merely following him. After all, he knew the police were on their way, so it makes sense his goal was simply to not lose him. But he also says that he lost him, and so was returning to his vehicle when TM found him, and that's when the talking/questioning started.

So I don't see how the keep an eye on him from a distance theory is blown at all.

Remember, between having something like five minutes of recorded phone conversation with the police dispatcher, knowing that the police were about to arrive, and seeing that TM was himself using the phone, he did not have a whole lot of wiggle room to come up with some kind of diabolical plan, and GZ doesn't strike me as someone who could even do that with time to plan it, much less pulling it off on the fly like that. Minutes after the shooting the police did show up, and he had to answer questions. If his story was a lie, then it would be extremely unlikely that it wouldn't have the kinds of holes in it you think you found here.

Maybe it does have such holes, but this is not one.

 

[Phoenixfla]

And that would be a very reasonable theory, except that we have Chief Lee stating that GZ got bashed because he asked a question, something like what are you doing here, and we have the girlfriend who heard him ask a similar question....and that pretty much blows the keep an eye on him from a distance theory out of the water, since he obviously made a statement to PD that he asked that question for the Police Chief to have made that ridiculous statement, and the girlfriend heard it, so he was NOT at a distance keeping an eye on Trayvon he was up close and personal and asking questions...IMO JMHO and stuff.

I agree they were face to face at some point, but that does not necessarily mean that GZ approached TM. I believe that Trayvon was angry that GZ was watching him and doubled back to teach GZ a lesson.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

There is nothing unlawful about asking that question, and it certainly does not justify battery, so I don't understand why that's relevant.

Besides, GZ's story is that he was merely following him. After all, he knew the police were on their way, so it makes sense his goal was simply to not lose him. But he also says that he lost him, and so was returning to his vehicle when TM found him, and that's when the talking/questioning started.

So I don't see how the keep an eye on him from a distance theory is blown at all.

Remember, between having something like five minutes of recorded phone conversation with the police dispatcher, knowing that the police were about to arrive, and seeing that TM was himself using the phone, he did not have a whole lot of wiggle room to come up with some kind of diabolical plan, and GZ doesn't strike me as someone who could even do that with time to plan it, much less pulling it off on the fly like that. Minutes after the shooting the police did show up, and he had to answer questions. If his story was a lie, then it would be extremely unlikely that it wouldn't have the kinds of holes in it you think you found here.

Maybe it does have such holes, but this is not one.

BBM

We heard in the hearing George's story does not add up.

 

[Adrienne37]

Florida shooter Zimmerman needs protection while out on bail, lawyer says..

Mark O'Mara also said he was considering seeking a taxpayer-funded bodyguard for Zimmerman if the threats continue, according to the report.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...protection-while-out-on-bail-lawyer-says?lite

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I agree they were face to face at some point, but that does not necessarily mean that GZ approached TM. I believe that Trayvon was angry that GZ was watching him and doubled back to teach GZ a lesson.

From he slurring words on the 911 tape I believe it was George who was planning on teaching a lesson that night. IMO

 

[jjenny]

Thank you for posting this! I'm going back to read the article. I'm also stunned at this decision and in shock that the judge could even think that way.

:what: :waitasec:

Reading about these other cases, I fail to see why GZ's lawyer would not request a SYG hearing.

 

[Adrienne37]

LOL What would prevent a nut or whacko from living in a gated community? Or a pedaphile? Or a rapist? They don't have signs on their foreheads, ya know.

Well, we do know there are at least 2 nuts living in that particular gated community.



~jmo~

 

[imamaze]

I'm not forgetting that at all. It has no relevance whatsoever, since GZ was breaking no laws for simply following someone, especially in a private gated community.

Being followed by a crazy person is a pretty unlikely situation in a gated community. Much more likely is it's someone like a busybody on the board of the HOA, or some other do-gooder resident snooping around to make sure nobody unauthorized is in the community (as GZ turned out to be).

But the more important point is that noticing someone unfamiliar walking around, thinking they're suspicious, calling the police to report them, and getting out of one's vehicle to follow them, even if told by the police dispatcher that that is unnecessary, is all perfectly legal. As far as I know, there is absolutely nothing legally wrong with doing any and all of that, and it's a perfectly normal and reasonable thing to do in a private gated community, especially by the neighborhood watch dude.

It does have relevance. Trayvon knew he belonged there, GZ knew he belonged but neither one knew if the other belonged. GZ was as much a stranger to Trayvon as Trayvon was to him.

GZ should have stayed in his vehicle, he should have never followed Trayvon IMO. It wasn't illegal for Trayvon to have went to the store to buy Skittles and Tea either. It wasn't illegal for him to be walking back home talking on the phone to his girlfriend, with his hoodie up in the rain. GZ should have never followed Trayvon, he should have waited for LE to get there.

 

[elementary]

What do you think is the reason he got out of his vehicle? He obviously had a reason, because he did get out. What do you think it might have been?


Do you think he was thinking this might be his chance to shoot someone? Maybe he planned to follow him, hoped for a confrontation, so he could have an excuse to shoot him. Is that what you're thinking?

Or, maybe he took his (unpaid) "security" job a little too seriously? Maybe he saw it as his duty to figure out why someone unfamiliar/suspicious is in the gated community? Maybe he was telling the truth when he was talking to the police dispatcher about being concerned the suspicious looking person would get away before the police got there, so he decided to follow him. Maybe that's why he started running when Trayvon started running?

Seems to me that the latter explanation is much more likely to be true. Gated communities are very different from public communities. One of the main reasons people live in gated communities is for the security, and much of that security stems from treating anyone who is unfamiliar as being suspicious.

If you don't know what I mean, try putting on a hoodie and sneaking into a gated community, especially one with a security team (paid or voluntary), and see what happens. Then, when you get followed by a security guard or security watch person, try to lose him. Then, after you lose him, sneak up behind him, confront him for following you and harassing you, hit him in the face with such force that his nose breaks and he's knocked to the ground, jump on him, and start bashing his head on the sidewalk (note: a photo showing bleeding on the back of Zimmerman's head minutes after the shooting has been released).

Think you won't get shot? <mod snip>

Trayvon was just walking home. What is suspicious about that? The fact that he was a stranger? Yet his behaviour was not out of the norm. Why could it not occur to GZ that if there is an unfamiliar person he might be a guest? Guests are not called "a$%%^^s". He already had profiled, judged and tried Trayvon based on his own biases, not on reality.

 

[Sensei]

There is nothing unlawful about asking that question, and it certainly does not justify battery, so I don't understand why that's relevant.

Besides, GZ's story is that he was merely following him. After all, he knew the police were on their way, so it makes sense his goal was simply to not lose him. But he also says that he lost him, and so was returning to his vehicle when TM found him, and that's when the talking/questioning started.

So I don't see how the keep an eye on him from a distance theory is blown at all.

Remember, between having something like five minutes of recorded phone conversation with the police dispatcher, knowing that the police were about to arrive, and seeing that TM was himself using the phone, he did not have a whole lot of wiggle room to come up with some kind of diabolical plan, and GZ doesn't strike me as someone who could even do that with time to plan it, much less pulling it off on the fly like that. Minutes after the shooting the police did show up, and he had to answer questions. If his story was a lie, then it would be extremely unlikely that it wouldn't have the kinds of holes in it you think you found here.

Maybe it does have such holes, but this is not one.

it actually does have such holes...lots of them. His Attorney had put forward on the record his story. The claim is that he was going to look for an address, He left his vehicle at 2:26, to go to the end of the walkway to get an address, approx 80 ft. If he went there and back it would be 160 ft. he through his attorney claims that he was attacked where the sidewalk between the buildings merge with the one he was on, about half way.

Using the most generous times and distances that I could, the best I could come up with is that if we believe this story GZ was attacked by Trayvon while he was still on the phone with LE dispatch....and this is the story his legal person locked in at the bond hearing....soooooo, no I really will wait and see if there is anything more than GZ's story or story(s) IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[Adrienne37]

BBM

We heard in the hearing George's story does not add up.

Don't you mean "stories" Doc? Was it 3 or 5 stories he's told according to the prosecution?


~jmo~

 

[suzihawk]

Florida shooter Zimmerman needs protection while out on bail, lawyer says..

Mark O'Mara also said he was considering seeking a taxpayer-funded bodyguard for Zimmerman if the threats continue, according to the report.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...protection-while-out-on-bail-lawyer-says?lite

Oh FGS! He had perfectly good protection right where he was. :banghead:

 

[Ninety5rpm]

From he slurring words on the 911 tape I believe it was George who was planning on teaching a lesson that night. IMO

Almost certainly. The question is whether "the lesson" planned was to get him in the hands of the police, or to shoot him dead.

It's not very likely for someone planning a murder to call the police right before the murder. I think you're giving GZ a little too much intellectual credit if you think that's what he did.

 

[jaded cat]

Reading about these other cases, I fail to see why GZ's lawyer would not request a SYG hearing.

I have no idea what this post means.

 

[Adrienne37]

Oh FGS! He had perfectly good protection right where he was. :banghead:

and yet again, here are Trayvon's parents and their attorneys asking for the vigilantism to stop. Such wonderful people.


An attorney representing the Martins also spoke to WESH to discourage any vigilantism against Zimmerman.
"They don't condone it. They don't want it," said Martin family attorney Natalie Jackson. "If that's what (others) are doing, please stop."

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...protection-while-out-on-bail-lawyer-says?lite