17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #32

[Sensei]

What do you think is the reason he got out of his vehicle? He obviously had a reason, because he did get out. What do you think it might have been?


Do you think he was thinking this might be his chance to shoot someone? Maybe he planned to follow him, hoped for a confrontation, so he could have an excuse to shoot him. Is that what you're thinking?

Or, maybe he took his (unpaid) "security" job a little too seriously? Maybe he saw it as his duty to figure out why someone unfamiliar/suspicious is in the gated community? Maybe he was telling the truth when he was talking to the police dispatcher about being concerned the suspicious looking person would get away before the police got there, so he decided to follow him. Maybe that's why he started running when Trayvon started running?

Seems to me that the latter explanation is much more likely to be true. Gated communities are very different from public communities. One of the main reasons people live in gated communities is for the security, and much of that security stems from treating anyone who is unfamiliar as being suspicious.

If you don't know what I mean, try putting on a hoodie and sneaking into a gated community, especially one with a security team (paid or voluntary), and see what happens. Then, when you get followed by a security guard or security watch person, try to lose him. Then, after you lose him, sneak up behind him, confront him for following you and harassing you, hit him in the face with such force that his nose breaks and he's knocked to the ground, jump on him, and start bashing his head on the sidewalk (note: a photo showing bleeding on the back of Zimmerman's head minutes after the shooting has been released).

Think you won't get shot? Wanna try it and find out?

BBM, Except that GZ was not LE...he's not a cop, so even if he did see Trayvon breaking into a car or a house, he has NO authority beyond the authority of the average citizen He had no authority to detain anyone, and in fact detaining Trayvon would have been a CRIME. So while it may be true that he thought Trayvon was suspicious, he was not empowered to legally do anything other than call LE, and following Trayvon was superflous since he had no power or authority to do anything else no matter what he saw and whether or not Trayvon "got away".

Just because I take the speed limit in front of my house a bit too seriously, does not give me the right to stop motorists and issue speeding tickets or set spike strips in the road...I am not a cop...GZ was not a cop, and he had fulfilled his duty to his neighborhood watch when he called LE,.

 

[wncgal]

What do you think is the reason he got out of his vehicle? He obviously had a reason, because he did get out. What do you think it might have been?


Do you think he was thinking this might be his chance to shoot someone? Maybe he planned to follow him, hoped for a confrontation, so he could have an excuse to shoot him. Is that what you're thinking?

Or, maybe he took his (unpaid) "security" job a little too seriously? Maybe he saw it as his duty to figure out why someone unfamiliar/suspicious is in the gated community? Maybe he was telling the truth when he was talking to the police dispatcher about being concerned the suspicious looking person would get away before the police got there, so he decided to follow him. Maybe that's why he started running when Trayvon started running?

Seems to me that the latter explanation is much more likely to be true. Gated communities are very different from public communities. One of the main reasons people live in gated communities is for the security, and much of that security stems from treating anyone who is unfamiliar as being suspicious.

If you don't know what I mean, try putting on a hoodie and sneaking into a gated community, especially one with a security team (paid or voluntary), and see what happens. Then, when you get followed by a security guard or security watch person, try to lose him. Then, after you lose him, sneak up behind him, confront him for following you and harassing you, hit him in the face with such force that his nose breaks and he's knocked to the ground, jump on him, and start bashing his head on the sidewalk (note: a photo showing bleeding on the back of Zimmerman's head minutes after the shooting has been released).

Think you won't get shot? <mod snip>

First of all, Trayvon did not "sneak" into a gated community with a "security team". He was an invited guest. My point still stands: why did he get out of his vehicle WHEN HE WAS TOLD BY THE POLICE DISPATCHER "WE DON'T NEED YOU TO DO THAT", i.e., follow him. Do I think he was itching for a fight, heck yes I do, and that's what led to him shooting a 17 year old kid who was doing nothing wrong. JMO.

 

[jaded cat]

Yep, but no one asked me :blushing:

My state doesn't have this law and I would vote against it if it came up.
I don't think you should be required to flee your place of residence. Someone kicks in my door, they intend harm, no question in my mind, and having to flee my home while in shock and fear puts my reaction in question and possibly has me fleeing my home into more danger outside my window. If you are in a shared space retreat when possible is just common sense for public safety. I don't want your average citizen deciding what is criminal and what isn't, and they certainly shouldn't be confronting anyone. Just from a public safety stand point if GZ had been approaching someone else, say a 25 year old with priors and warrant for his arrest and gun on him GZ pursuing him might have got a bystander killed in the crossfire.

That's exactly what my husband thinks! We do have guns in our house and he wouldn't hesitate to use them. He was a sharpshooter in the Army.

 

[LynnM]

What do you think is the reason he got out of his vehicle? He obviously had a reason, because he did get out. What do you think it might have been?


Do you think he was thinking this might be his chance to shoot someone? Maybe he planned to follow him, hoped for a confrontation, so he could have an excuse to shoot him. Is that what you're thinking?

Or, maybe he took his (unpaid) "security" job a little too seriously? Maybe he saw it as his duty to figure out why someone unfamiliar/suspicious is in the gated community? Maybe he was telling the truth when he was talking to the police dispatcher about being concerned the suspicious looking person would get away before the police got there, so he decided to follow him. Maybe that's why he started running when Trayvon started running?

Seems to me that the latter explanation is much more likely to be true. Gated communities are very different from public communities. One of the main reasons people live in gated communities is for the security, and much of that security stems from treating anyone who is unfamiliar as being suspicious.

If you don't know what I mean, try putting on a hoodie and sneaking into a gated community, especially one with a security team (paid or voluntary), and see what happens. Then, when you get followed by a security guard or security watch person, try to lose him. Then, after you lose him, sneak up behind him, confront him for following you and harassing you, hit him in the face with such force that his nose breaks and he's knocked to the ground, jump on him, and start bashing his head on the sidewalk (note: a photo showing bleeding on the back of Zimmerman's head minutes after the shooting has been released).

Think you won't get shot? <mod snip>

Wow! If Zimmerman wanted to find out why Trayvon was there, then why didn't he identify himself and ask him? He certainly didn't do it when Trayvon was supposedly walking up to his vehicle to check him out and the friend on the phone reports that he didn't answer Trayvon's question about why he was following him or identify himself as a watch volunteer and ask if he lived there.

Trayvon didn't sneak into this community. He was staying there.

Yes, I know about the photo but if Zimmerman was the aggressor then Trayvon had every right to defend himself. We have only Zimmerman's word that he was defending himself after being jumped from behind and I don't believe him.

And no, I don't want to sneak into a gated community. But if I am an invited guest or staying with relatives, I expect to be able to put my hoodie on and walk down the street and not be shot. If a security person in uniform or in a marked patrol asks me what I am doing there I will tell him. If a watch volunteer identifies himself I will tell him. But if a strange man follows me in a car, I am going to run and if he runs after me I am going to be sure he's a bad guy.

 

[Sensei]

That's exactly what my husband thinks! We do have guns in our house and he wouldn't hesitate to use them. He was a sharpshooter in the Army.

I am an elderly female and I live alone, and I don't have a gun, but my reasons are simple, I don't know anything about guns, and I am more likely to be shot with my own gun because I have no knowlege or training. Someone wants to shoot me they have to bring their own gun...

What I do have is an alarm system, and a very little yappy dog and a very Big dog who wants to bite anyone who touches me. I have deadbolts and chain locks and double lock windows, and lastly, I have a cattle prod that will make someone sit up and take notice quite quickly....I am not afraid.

 

[jaded cat]

What do you think is the reason he got out of his vehicle? He obviously had a reason, because he did get out. What do you think it might have been?


Do you think he was thinking this might be his chance to shoot someone? Maybe he planned to follow him, hoped for a confrontation, so he could have an excuse to shoot him. Is that what you're thinking?

Or, maybe he took his (unpaid) "security" job a little too seriously? Maybe he saw it as his duty to figure out why someone unfamiliar/suspicious is in the gated community? Maybe he was telling the truth when he was talking to the police dispatcher about being concerned the suspicious looking person would get away before the police got there, so he decided to follow him. Maybe that's why he started running when Trayvon started running?

Seems to me that the latter explanation is much more likely to be true. Gated communities are very different from public communities. One of the main reasons people live in gated communities is for the security, and much of that security stems from treating anyone who is unfamiliar as being suspicious.

If you don't know what I mean, try putting on a hoodie and sneaking into a gated community, especially one with a security team (paid or voluntary), and see what happens. Then, when you get followed by a security guard or security watch person, try to lose him. Then, after you lose him, sneak up behind him, confront him for following you and harassing you, hit him in the face with such force that his nose breaks and he's knocked to the ground, jump on him, and start bashing his head on the sidewalk (note: a photo showing bleeding on the back of Zimmerman's head minutes after the shooting has been released).

Think you won't get shot? <mod snip>

BBM

Since I don't believe that's what happened, I'll pass on that experiment. It still does not explain why GZ couldn't have approached TM in a guarded, yet calm manner and ask him if he needed help. Better yet, why didn't GZ just stay in his truck until LE arrives.

 

[momshrink]

He wasn't standing his ground...that's the #1 reason not to use it IMO

I hope the defense throws us for a loop and uses insanity....

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[Elley Mae]

I am an elderly female and I live alone, and I don't have a gun, but my reasons are simple, I don't know anything about guns, and I am more likely to be shot with my own gun because I have no knowlege or training. Someone wants to shoot me they have to bring their own gun...

What I do have is an alarm system, and a very little yappy dog and a very Big dog who wants to bite anyone who touches me. I have deadbolts and chain locks and double lock windows, and lastly, I have a cattle prod that will make someone sit up and take notice quite quickly....I am not afraid.

I want to be on your team:woohoo:

 

[Nova]

It also goes to the history he has with not wanting to pay for things he is responsible for paying. He didn't want to pay rent to a landlord (called cops), didn't want to pay someone for their services (call cops), now the credit card, and also him throwing himself a nice little party for a degree he didn't have. It's a pattern. Everything in his life these past few years shows a pattern of a man who imo, was a ticking time bomb. His sense of self-entitlement is, IMO, off the charts!

MOO

I don't know why GZ called the police rather than a lawyer or legal aid service, but I can understand his thinking about the defaulting landlord.

GZ was in danger of losing his home because of the impending foreclosure. He knew or thought he knew the landlord wasn't using the rent to pay the mortgage.

Although the law wasn't on his side, I can understand GZ thinking, "Why am I paying him rent money that won't actually get to the institution holding title on the house?"

This strikes me as typical human thinking and not a sign of special irresponsibility or narcissism.

 

[jaded cat]

I am an elderly female and I live alone, and I don't have a gun, but my reasons are simple, I don't know anything about guns, and I am more likely to be shot with my own gun because I have no knowlege or training. Someone wants to shoot me they have to bring their own gun...

What I do have is an alarm system, and a very little yappy dog and a very Big dog who wants to bite anyone who touches me. I have deadbolts and chain locks and double lock windows, and lastly, I have a cattle prod that will make someone sit up and take notice quite quickly....I am not afraid.

:floorlaugh: I will NEVER even think of discovering your identity and coming to rob you! That all sounds pretty serious but I'm glad you feel safe. I don't much about guns other than how to load them and aim at a target so I'll leave the gun handling to my spouse. :woohoo:

 

[suzihawk]

I really wonder if it comes down to dollars and cents, if the severance package is so generous that it is financially feasible to keep him until they can find a way to accept that resignation without having to spend as much money. This whole thing is just crazy IMO, I agree though how is Lee supposed to lead the department after the no confidence vote, and yet they refuse his resignation...I don't get it.

That's pretty much what Bonaparte said on O'Donnell's show last night.

 

[impatientredhead]

BBM, Except that GZ was not LE...he's not a cop, so even if he did see Trayvon breaking into a car or a house, he has NO authority beyond the authority of the average citizen He had no authority to detain anyone, and in fact detaining Trayvon would have been a CRIME. So while it may be true that he thought Trayvon was suspicious, he was not empowered to legally do anything other than call LE, and following Trayvon was superflous since he had no power or authority to do anything else no matter what he saw and whether or not Trayvon "got away".

Just because I take the speed limit in front of my house a bit too seriously, does not give me the right to stop motorists and issue speeding tickets or set spike strips in the road...I am not a cop...GZ was not a cop, and he had fulfilled his duty to his neighborhood watch when he called LE,.

I posted a link in the last thread with a shooter who takes his speed limits quite seriously, in Florida, defended under SYG. Shooter felt his neighbor was speeding thru the neighborhood and posed a danger to his children. He went inside to get his gun, followed them to their house, had a confrontation with the passenger (who wasn't speeding in the first place, and the car was safely parked, a call to 911 would more than have handled the situation at its given state) Speed enforcement resident shot the passenger twice in the head, killing him. Went free under this very law last year.

 

[ScubaTwinn]

Still have 3 more pages to catch up from the last thread, but wanted to pop in for a moment to respond from the old thread:
The answer is no, because I have never followed nor questioned a suspicious person. When I have spotted one, like a break-in I thought was occurring 2 houses down from me because noone was living there, I called LE. They immediately followed up and found out that it had been temporarily rented, but this chick left the front doors wide open and had the doors to her van open, and was new to the area.

Thank you again! I have another 4 pages to read and something has come up - I can't right now. I really appreciate your responding to my question.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

BBM

Trayvon was an invited guest of a resident of that community. No different than other invited guests of other residents in that community.

He didn't sneak in anywhere and he had every right to be there, as that invited guest.

Yes, but did Zimmerman know that? If not, what difference does it make?

So, instead of sneaking in.... get invited as a guest to a private gated community. Then, go for a walk. Leave the community, maybe going to a convenience store to get some candy. Then return to the gated community, making sure your hoodie is on before you re-enter, making sure you walk around slowly, "checking stuff out", and see what happens. Then, when you get followed by a security guard or security watch person, try to lose him. Then, after you lose him, sneak up behind him, confront him for following you and harassing you, hit him in the face with such force that his nose breaks and he's knocked to the ground, jump on him, and start bashing his head on the sidewalk.

Another way to go is to thank the security person for his diligence, and politely and respectfully explain why you're there.

Do you think one of these approaches might be more likely to get you shot?

 

[wncgal]

This case is so sad for me. I grew up in the 50s and 60s in a small Southern town where there were separate water fountains, etc. So I saw racism up close and personal you might say. I thought we had come so much further from that time, but we apparently haven't and that makes me sad. It makes me sad that someone would assume that because a black kid is walking down a street wearing a hoodie or whatever, that that kid is suspicious just because he's black. This case is ABSOLUTELY about right and wrong, but it is also about black and white no matter how much people deny it. The vitriol and hate directed at Trayvon and his family and their attorneys makes me sick. <mod snip>And it is all just so sad. JMHO.

 

[tehcloser]

Yes, but did Zimmerman know that? If not, what difference does it make?

So, instead of sneaking in.... get invited as a guest to a private gated community. Then, go for a walk. Leave the community, maybe going to a convenience store to get some candy. Then return to the gated community, making sure your hoodie is on before you re-enter, making sure you walk around slowly, "checking stuff out", and see what happens. Then, when you get followed by a security guard or security watch person, try to lose him. Then, after you lose him, sneak up behind him, confront him for following you and harassing you, hit him in the face with such force that his nose breaks and he's knocked to the ground, jump on him, and start bashing his head on the sidewalk.

Another way to go is to thank the security person for his diligence, and politely and respectfully explain why you're there.
Do you think one of these approaches might be more likely to get you shot?

BBM

Yer forgetting one very important piece of the puzzle.......hth was Tray supposed to know who GZ was??? He could have been a crazy person for all Tray knew.

 

[jaded cat]

I posted a link in the last thread with a shooter who takes his speed limits quite seriously, in Florida, defended under SYG. Shooter felt his neighbor was speeding thru the neighborhood and posed a danger to his children. He went inside to get his gun, followed them to their house, had a confrontation with the passenger (who wasn't speeding in the first place, and the car was safely parked, a call to 911 would more than have handled the situation at its given state) Speed enforcement resident shot the passenger twice in the head, killing him. Went free under this very law last year.

Oh, for the love of God, how is this possible? I know, I know, it's how the law works but that's a horrible abuse of it. Judge only or jury trial? I'd like to know how many bozos participated in that decision. :what:

 

[Ninety5rpm]

BBM

Since I don't believe that's what happened, I'll pass on that experiment. It still does not explain why GZ couldn't have approached TM in a guarded, yet calm manner and ask him if he needed help. Better yet, why didn't GZ just stay in his truck until LE arrives.

If you don't believe that's what happened, what do you believe happened?

How do you know GZ did not approach TM in a guarded, yet calm manner? For all we know, based on what we learned from the recording of the call to the police dispatcher, he was merely following him, calmly, until TM noticed him and started running, trying to ditch him, apparently successfully.

As to why he didn't stay in his truck, I already answered that. He was concerned he would lose TM, and he wanted to make sure the police would question him. It was perfectly natural for someone like that to treat an unfamiliar person in a gated community as suspicious, and to follow him so as not to lose him before the police got there.

Again, why do you think he got out of the truck?

 

[Nova]

I don't know what he means by that at all. What other defense is available to him? He admitted to the shooting. I guess he could claim he didn't intentionally shot the gun and it went off during the struggle, but that would not work if he told police otherwise.

Depending on the facts, GZ could claim self-defense before a jury without specifically invoking the SYG provisions and asking for immunity.

He can also do both, but it isn't required, as far as I know.

He could also in theory claim insanity. Maybe his lawyer is having GZ evaluated.

ianal

 

[impatientredhead]

I really wonder if it comes down to dollars and cents, if the severance package is so generous that it is financially feasible to keep him until they can find a way to accept that resignation without having to spend as much money. This whole thing is just crazy IMO, I agree though how is Lee supposed to lead the department after the no confidence vote, and yet they refuse his resignation...I don't get it.

Do you get severance if you resign in a no confidence vote? I know some severance packages are costly but I am not sure if the no confidence and/or him being a public official changes that. I would like to think our local police chief doesn't get a severance package if he is outed in a no confidence vote. The outcry right now might be about TM, but the residence of Sanford were talking about longterm internal problems and a lack of trust in the police. Fresh blood couldn't have hurt, even just a fresh face that could say I can't right the wrongs that happened in the past, but lets work together going forward. What is the public suppose to say to a chief they wanted out and one that tried to quit? And how can he possibly do his job sucessfully? Seems like a no win.