17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #32

[Boytwnmom]

and records are presumed to be subject to disclosure unless they fall under an exemption. A party has to file a Motion asking for them to be sealed. GZ's attorney filed a Motion and the judge ordered that the court filings and other records be sealed. (I would love to read that Motion) Media outlets have challenged this ruling and filed their own motion papers to oppose the sealing arguing that the circumstances do not meet the usual requirements for sealing records. They made their Motion papers available. They basically argue:

Zimmerman's case doesn't meet the standards that are typically used to create an exemption to those laws, according to the motion filed by the news organizations.

Those standards allow the sealing of records if their public release would create an imminent threat to the administration of justice, if there are no alternatives for protecting a defendant's right to a fair trial and if closing the records protects the rights of the person being tried.

"The closure order and the manner in which it was entered are contrary to law," the media organizations said in the motion.

http://http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/16/trayvon-martin-case-sealed-records_n_1428972.html

As for Perjury, no what you describe would not be considered perjury. Perjury is a crime and all the elements of the crime have to be present. Laws vary somewhat but generally Perjury requires knowingly making a false material statement under oath in a legal proceeding. So, the defendant has to have knowledge/intent, the statement has to be under oath in a legal proceeding (trial, deposition, grand jury etc) and it has to be material, i.e. relevant to the matter. That means if you lie about how much money you make, or how many pets you have, whether you eat meat etc. in a trial about whether you drove under the influence that would not be considered material to the case. If you lied about how much you drink or drink and drive, now that would be material.
Hope this helps!

Questions for the legal types.

1. What are the arguments for and against unsealing the records, and who benefits/loses out either way?

2. Can GZ be charged with perjury since he told TM's parents in his apology that he didn't know how old TM was, that he thought TM was just a little younger than himself, but on the PD call he clearly states that TM is in his late teens?

Thanks.

 

[luvmygarden]

http://www.surefire.com/illumination/law-enforcement-lights/g2x-a-bk.html#

I hope this o.k. to link It is a Tacticle flashlight 5.20 in length. There is an interesting short video. I guess it is used by LE ,Military or anyone who needs a high power compact flashlight. The flashlight testimony by the investigator interested me. I always have a 12 inch mag light by my bed when my husband goes hunting and I am home alone. I would never own a gun so I figure I can use it if I ever have to. Not as advanced as a cattle prod (smile) but it is something.
These Tacticle flashlights are not cheap.

 

[RANCH]

Well, I dunno. As I said, I'm not a gun person. If you have a conceal permit, you have to keep it out of sight/hidden. So I'm assuming if you don't have a permit, you can wear it strapped to your hip or wherever you want. Where everyone can plainly see it - on display. Which seems a lot more intimidating to me. Like I said, seems backwards.

OK. I thought that you may have been saying Florida Law allows carrying a loaded handgun openly where someone can see it no permit required.
Your just assuming that's the law.

 

[Allusonz]

I was a toddler once and I know I used that lie a lot! :floorlaugh:

This made me chuckle so hard ended up having to dry out a keyboard.

Thanks needed some light heartedness

 

[chefmom]

Just make sure you let the other person swing first.

Actually, the question under SYG (as I understand it--IANAL) is not whether GZ was right to follow and ask, but whether it was illegal to do so. It wasn't, so in theory, GZ doesn't lose his SYG rights for asking the question.

Now IMO either the SA is going to argue that GZ's pursuit with an intent to detain was illegal (hard to prove) or she is going to rely on the gf's testimony to argue that GZ pushed TM first. Just my speculation at this point...

BBM

Yes. It would seem she is also going to argue that GZ's story doesn't match the evidence. Whether he claims SYG or not, they should argue that there is only one reason for GZ to lie. JMO

 

[KateNY]

Geeze , how many ppl were taking pics that night

April 20

First of all, to you, Mr. Taaffe, do you believe it helped George Zimmerman to take the stand today?

TAAFFE: Absolutely. George is being George. Nancy, a couple weeks ago you wanted to see blood on a shirt. Now you have blood on the head. So, America, you have your blood. I`m also going to share with you this, that was a photo of George Zimmerman, and I know who the neighbor was that took it. And he came forward only to support George Zimmerman. And more of our neighbors are coming out --

GRACE: So, I`m taking it to believe --

TAAFFE: Are coming out to support him. They are going to support him.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/ng.01.html


March 27

JOE OLIVER, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: About his injuries? About his broken nose and about the gashes on the back of his head?

GRACE: Yes.

OLIVER: That they happened. We are efforting, rather, a picture that was taken by one of the police investigators on the scene on an iPhone before George was cleaned up to show the severity of the beating.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/27/ng.01.html



:waitasec:

 

[Adrienne37]

http://www.surefire.com/illumination/law-enforcement-lights/g2x-a-bk.html#

I hope this o.k. to link It is a Tacticle flashlight 5.20 in length. There is an interesting short video. I guess it is used by LE ,Military or anyone who needs a high power compact flashlight. The flashlight testimony by the investigator interested me. I always have a 12 inch mag light by my bed when my husband goes hunting and I am home alone. I would never own a gun so I figure I can use it if I ever have to. Not as advanced as a cattle prod (smile) but it is something.
These Tacticle flashlights are not cheap.

Thanks so much for posting. The video states - "disorient the night adaptive vision of an aggressor giving you control edge in the field" so now that has me wondering if Zimmerman somehow used this to disorient Trayvon before he pulled the gun.


~jmo~

 

[Allusonz]

Has Richard Hornsby seen what evidence there is in this case yet?



~jmo~

You would have to ask Mr. Hornsby that.

 

[Just K]

But there is no evidence that George tried to "detain" Trayvon. I believe that George was just observing Trayvon, in all likelyhood to be able to report to the police once they arrived. He may have walked to the alleyway, but I believe it was just to continue to keep an eye on the person whom was acting suspiciously. I say suspiciously based on the fact that George felt he may have been on drugs. In my opinion George must have seen something that made him consider the possibly that Trayvon could be under the influence of drugs.

He might have been singing and doing a happy dance while talking to his GF for all we know.

 

[csziggy]

He does not have to testify if he chooses not to. The right to not testify against yourself is always in effect. If he chooses to not testify would that harm his chances, probably, but considering he is facing criminal charges it still can't be compelled to.

After the bond hearing I would imagine he would testify on his own behalf, but they SYG hearing is just the judge and evaluation of the evidence as presented. If the judge feels there is a preponderance of evidence that will lead to an acquittal he can pull the plug on the whole show, or he can send them on to trial.

But it is not every witness and every shred of evidence being presented at a jury level. Mostly sworn statements of the witnesses that will be called, the physical evidence to be presented, the state can explain what they expect to show or ask the witnesses about. And then the judge makes a call.

If it sounds unfair, keep in mind SYG was written from the point of view of an elderly/retired couple that shoots a home intruder and then spends the next year in poor health and financial strain defending themselves or worrying about going to jail or leaving behind a destitute spouse. That is literally the poster child case they used when selling the bill. Made sense in that case, elderly couple, in their home, not reasonable for them to flee, but without the SYG law the standard said they were required to flee. It took over a year for the state to announce they were not pursuing charges, by then the seventy year old shooter in a motor home with one exit (no realistic flight option present) had worried himself sick and a full blown defense at trial would have ruined them financially. My point being if it sounds like the SYG hearing is unfair to the victims side of the story with little to no risk to the shooter, it does, that is how it was written.

BBM

The description of the case used as the 'poster child' for the SYG case is completely inaccurate. Yes, the way you describe it is very much the way the bill sponsor described the case, but that does not fit the facts of that case. The actual circumstances are too long for me to summarize here, but the couple was only in limbo for three months, not a year. They never hired an attorney and had no extra expenses due to the case.

Here is an article that details the case and how it has been twisted to serve the purpose of those who wanted the SYG law passed:

Florida's 'stand your ground' law was born of 2004 case, but story has been distorted
By Ben Montgomery, Times Staff Writer
In Print: Sunday, April 15, 2012

<SNIP>
But if you really look at the case, you see that the story told by proponents of "stand your ground" is a distortion. And it's being distorted to this day.

What happened on that warm and windy night on the banks of Big Lagoon was a tragedy for everyone involved. But it was not a case that suggested a need for a new law.

<SNIP>
James Workman was not arrested. He and his wife gave recorded statements to the sheriff's deputies.

Two days later, on Nov. 5, James and Kathryn Workman read in the Pensacola News Journal that the "State Attorney's Office will decide whether to rule the shooting justified or file charges."

<SNIP>

Three months later, on Jan. 30, the Workmans read in the same paper that the State Attorney's Office had ruled the shooting justified, that Workman "was confronted with circumstances and conditions beyond his control that resulted in the unfortunate death of Mr. Cox."

Weeks later, when the "stand your ground" law was introduced in the Legislature, a reporter asked David Rimmer, the assistant state attorney who decided not to charge Workman, for his opinion. He would not comment for this story because he is a judge now, but he told the Pensacola News Journal in 2005, "I think the law's fine as it is."

More: http://www.tampabay.com/news/public...-born-of-2004-case-but-story-has-been/1225164

BBM

 

[luvmygarden]

Thanks so much for posting. The video states - "disorient the night adaptive vision of an aggressor giving you control edge in the field" so now that has me wondering if Zimmerman somehow used this to disorient Trayvon before he pulled the gun.


~jmo~

My thoughts exactly. Why else spend $95.00 on a flashlight.
Maybe the confrontation escalated because GZ pulled his little flashlight out and startled TM. I would be if it was dark and all of a sudden I was blinded by someone who is following me. If LE didn't take the picture and his friend did it explains what a bright light causing the total blockout of GZ natural skin tones looks like. It was a strange picture. On the other hand LE probably has the same flashlight and could have taken the picture using their own flashlight.

 

[Adrienne37]

My thoughts exactly. Why else spend $95.00 on a flashlight.
Maybe the confrontation escalated because GZ pulled his little flashlight out and startled TM. I would be if it was dark and all of a sudden I was blinded by someone who is following me. If LE didn't take the picture and his friend did it explains what a bright light causing the total blockout of GZ natural skin tones looks like. It was a strange picture. On the other hand LE probably has the same flashlight and could have taken the picture using their own flashlight.

and I believe the investigator stated he had two of these tactical flashlights on his person that night. I'm not seeing that in the CNN transcript but I'm guessing it could have been at one of the points where they took a commercial break.

Excellent point about the photo as well.


~jmo~

 

[LinasK]

Well, I dunno. As I said, I'm not a gun person. If you have a conceal permit, you have to keep it out of sight/hidden. So I'm assuming if you don't have a permit, you can wear it strapped to your hip or wherever you want. Where everyone can plainly see it - on display. Which seems a lot more intimidating to me. Like I said, seems backwards.

I agree that it's alot more intimidating. They tried in here in California in Starbucks. Open Carry got banned!!!

 

[grandmaj]

Has there been any MSM about whether GZ's car was towed and searched?

 

[impatientredhead]

Well, I dunno. As I said, I'm not a gun person. If you have a conceal permit, you have to keep it out of sight/hidden. So I'm assuming if you don't have a permit, you can wear it strapped to your hip or wherever you want. Where everyone can plainly see it - on display. Which seems a lot more intimidating to me. Like I said, seems backwards.

If you live in an open carry state, which Florida is not one, than you could carry a handgun in visible manner like you have described. Having your handgun visible would be considered brandishing a weapon. In states like Florida you cannot carry like that (police and some security excluded of course). Very generally speaking since every state has their own version rifles don't fall under this same rules. They either have their own permit or come with your hunting license, or both, but that makes it legal for your rifle to be transported, unloaded but visible while transporting.

http://www.opencarry.org/opencarry.html

 

[Zak]

I don't hear it either GZ's 911 call, but I did post a while back that one of the other female 911 callers did sound completely in the bag. But then I noticed that the dispatcher sounded a little sluggish, too. So I chalked it up to the recording. jmo

Glad to hear that because I thought for a minute that I was losing my mind. I just used head phones and listened to the call again. I still can't hear any slurring of words. What I could hear, very loudly in the background, was the audio recording equipment used to record the calls. There were a few times that it sounded as though GZ had phone too close to his mouth causing it to rub his cheek.

I'm sure that if he had been drinking, prior to the shooting, LE would have smelled it on his breath. If anyone can detect the odor of alcohol on ones breath its a cop.

 

[Concerned Papa]

Francis has been making the media tour hailing his pal George as a hero of sorts who "saved" his home from burglary on 2/2/2012. On CNN's Soledad O'Brien show, he said:

George Zimmerman through his efforts of being a neighborhood watch captain helped stop one in progress, documented in the 911 calls February 2. My house was being robbed, and George on his nightly rounds watched this burglary in progress, called Sanford P.D., waited for them, and helped ensure that nothing bad happened to my house. And it's documented the 911 call for February 2. That was my residence that George Zimmerman helped stop.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/03/sp.02.html

I decided to take a closer look at this police report and, in doing so, feel I have gained insight into the type man that George Zimmerman may be. The report is at the bottom of this post. In the Remarks column on the right, read from the bottom to top.

Essentially George is describing another perceived "menacing" BM with nefarious intent "casing out" Francis's house in much the similar fashion to his allegations of Trayvon allegedly "looking about" during the 911 call of 2/26.

He called Francis at his GF's house on 2/2 and let him know what was going on:

&#8220;Just two weeks before this shooting, George called me at my girlfriend&#8217;s house to say he saw some black guy doing surveillance at my house, because I had a left a window open,&#8221; Taaffe said. &#8220;He thwarted a potential burglary of my house.&#8221;

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/...-martin-shooter-a-habitual.html#storylink=cpy

At some point, he let Francis know he was watching this guy while in possession of his 100 lb dog AND a 9mm pistol:

He went on to share that on the night of February 2, as he was walking through the neighborhood, ensuring the safety of all the residents at Twin Lakes, that he observed a young black male looking in the front of my house. He called -- he told me that he was walking his 100-pound Rottweiler. And that he was carrying a 9 millimeter with him at that time.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/09/ijvm.01.html

At the top of the report's remarks column, you'll find that when our same Officer Tim arrived on scene, if anyone was ever really there, they weren't there any longer. All doors and windows were secure and everything was 10-4 with zero evidence of a problem. Irregardless of Francis's continuing heralding of GZ being a "hero", seems as if one of George's "a%$holes" must have gotten away!

The point of all of this is, I started wondering why or how the "a%$hole" of 2/2 got away while under the "diligent" eyes of George, his gun, AND his dog. Then I noticed, NOWHERE in this police report does it say this "perp" was in his late teens. Nowhere does it say THIS bad guy was just a kid.

Seem's George's courage to pursue grew exceedingly when the "a%$hole" was just a kid, even without his dog.

 

[HiHater]

Has there been any MSM about whether GZ's car was towed and searched?

No, but I'm not sure that LE would be able to search it without a warrant or consent. JMO MOO IMO

 

[luvmygarden]

There is definately more to this story than "why are you following me?" and "what are you doing here?" 17 yr. olds are much less serious than anyone even over 21. I just have a hard time believing a question would set someone off to the degree GZ claims. Add to that someone staring at you or following you. Something else happened to make this escalate.

 

[impatientredhead]

BBM

The description of the case used as the 'poster child' for the SYG case is completely inaccurate. Yes, the way you describe it is very much the way the bill sponsor described the case, but that does not fit the facts of that case. The actual circumstances are too long for me to summarize here, but the couple was only in limbo for three months, not a year. They never hired an attorney and had no extra expenses due to the case.

Here is an article that details the case and how it has been twisted to serve the purpose of those who wanted the SYG law passed:


BBM

I said it was the poster child case and how they promoted it being passed. That is completely accurate and exactly how they packaged and sold it. I didn't say it was accurate, or that it was or wasn't distorted for political gain and lobbying dollars. That seemed off topic for this particular forum.

The case they based it on and marketed on had has many problems in as the cases we have discussed since then and is reflective of the problems with the law in and of itself. I never claimed to agree with the law, in fact I have stated repeatedly that I don't.

That it was put in place distorted facts and representation goes without saying as far as I am concerned, but I am pretty skeptical of the political system and the court system in general.

ETA to add: I knew he was not arrested and didn't actually run up costs, the bill included that as a worst case scenario. I will find my source for nine months to a year to be cleared. It was clearly twisted for effect no matter how long it actually went on. And now that law has been picked up by a dozen other states.