17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #35

[Karmady]

I'm absolutely worried about the potential for justice. Moreso from the defense as I don't think the State is gonna totally tip its hand and you have GZ lobbyists all over the place--for a while there it was nearly impossible to watch cable and not see one or more of them. And maybe GZ was afraid but he had knowledge that LE was on the way and a gun in his hand. All he had to do was get in his car and drive away to be safe from whatever he thought was a threat. He's way more familiar with the neighborhood than Trayvon--GZ had every advantage IMO.

For one, imo, George obviously wasn't concerned about his own safety, but that of his neighbors and, two, in connection with your earlier post, he did call the police.

Imo, it's all about the context. It is established that there were recent break-ins in the community which are known to have been perpetrated by young men, the majority of whom were black. George had recently assisted a woman whose home was broken into by this same group of criminals while she was in the home with an infant. That woman had to hide with the baby, most certainly praying for her and her child's life the entire time, and George was aware of this and had assisted her. These same criminals or "a&%holes" (personally, I think the shoe more than fits) did, in fact, "get away," as they fled out her back door just as the police arrived.

If I were a man, particularly a man who was a neighbor involved in assisting that woman and part of the NW, I would have done anything in my power to make sure that another incident just like that didn't happen again. Because I'm a woman, I'm not sure I would have followed Trayvon, but I'm feisty and I might have. In any case, if I knew that another woman and her baby in my neighborhood had gone through that, I would have done my very best to make sure I knew where this person was until the police arrived, this time. And if that meant following the person I was suspicious of, then I would have.

It was completely fortuitous that George was wrong about Trayvon. Imo, he had every right to be suspicious and I would have been, as well. Very much so, in fact.

For those reasons, I believe that what George did up to the moment of confrontation is, potentially, completely reasonable. It's what happened in those last seconds that matters to me.

The question in my mind about those last seconds is this. Both George and Trayvon's girl friend agree that Trayvon asked George why he was following and that George asked Trayvon what he was doing there. Why did Trayvon not simply say, I'm staying with my Dad over at *advertiser censored* address. Even if he thought George was going for a gun rather than his cell during that conversation (which I don't think has been established and I'm not sure I believe, anyway) wouldn't a reasonable reaction be "Wait! Dude!, my dad's gf lives here -- right over there. I'm just on my way home!!!"

 

[katydid23]

On really? I thought Hannity was covering it a lot. My mom watches only Fox and she knows all about it, so I just figured. Maybe she's reading on the net.

No, not that I have seen. He has mentioned it a bit, but I don't watch his show regularly. I channel surf, so I can't say I watch any show all the way through. But I do see snippets and never really see any of the attorneys or TH's discussing that show as often as CNN or HLN or even MSNBC does.

 

[Sherbie]

I'm absolutely worried about the potential for justice. Moreso from the defense as I don't think the State is gonna totally tip its hand and you have GZ lobbyists all over the place--for a while there it was nearly impossible to watch cable and not see one or more of them. And maybe GZ was afraid but he had knowledge that LE was on the way and a gun in his hand. All he had to do was get in his car and drive away to be safe from whatever he thought was a threat. He's way more familiar with the neighborhood than Trayvon--GZ had every advantage IMO.

I think it's all going to come down to what the state can actually prove beyond a reasonable doubt vs. perhaps what really, truly happened. That's legal justice, but not always absolute justice. I hope we get answers, but I think it's possible we may never know for sure how it all went down.

 

[highflyer]

Originally Posted by vlpate
Why is it everyone forgets that TM came toward GZ's truck, and then took off running. Do you think this is going to tell a jury TM was scared? This is indisputable evidence.

Perhaps you missed this. Where is this indisputable evidence you have? Sounds intriguing.

 

[Helplessly Hoping]

For one, imo, George obviously wasn't concerned about his own safety, but that of his neighbors and, two, in connection with your earlier post, he did call the police.

Imo, it's all about the context. It is established that there were recent break-ins in the community which are known to have been perpetrated by young men, the majority of whom were black. George had recently assisted a woman whose home was broken into by this same group of criminals while she was in the home with an infant. That woman had to hide with the baby, most certainly praying for her and her child's life the entire time, and George was aware of this and had assisted her. These same criminals or "a&%holes" (personally, I think the shoe more than fits) did, in fact, "get away," as they fled out her back door just as the police arrived.

If I were a man, particularly a man who was a neighbor involved in assisting that woman and part of the NW, I would have done anything in my power to make sure that another incident just like that didn't happen again. Because I'm a woman, I'm not sure I would have followed Trayvon, but I'm feisty and I might have. In any case, if I knew that another woman and her baby in my neighborhood had gone through that, I would have done my very best to make sure I knew where this person was until the police arrived, this time. And if that meant following the person I was suspicious of, then I would have.

It was completely fortuitous that George was wrong about Trayvon. Imo, he had every right to be suspicious and I would have been, as well. Very much so, in fact.

For those reasons, I believe that what George did up to the moment of confrontation is, potentially, completely reasonable. It's what happened in those last seconds that matters to me.

The question in my mind about those last seconds is this. Both George and Trayvon's girl friend agree that Trayvon asked George why he was following and that George asked Trayvon what he was doing there. Why did Trayvon not simply say, I'm staying with my Dad over at *advertiser censored* address. Even if he thought George was going for a gun rather than his cell during that conversation (which I don't think has been established and I'm not sure I believe, anyway) wouldn't a reasonable reaction be "Wait! Dude!, my dad's gf lives here -- right over there. I'm just on my way home!!!"

A 17-year-old doesn't always have the presence of mind that we'd like them to have. I sure didn't. :what: and BBM I can see calling the cops as being reasonable. Not heeding the guidance from the dispatcher? No. Seems like self-importance trumped rational thought.

I am trying to think of any circumstance where I may choose to follow someone and I can't really think of one. It's not in my nature to play cop. I'm a good citizen though. All JMO

 

[vlpate]

I was a bad kid. I was suspended from school, smoked weed, talked like an idiot sometimes, did a bit of under-aged drinking, mouthed off to my parents sometimes, and I was kicked out of a Catholic school at 17, for being pregnant.

I guess I deserve to be shot and killed. Where's GZ? Send him my way. Let's see if he's got it in him.

Again, the point is missed. I'm not making judgments because that would be pointless. The defense could walk into the court room and allege TM was a bad kid and therefore should have been shot and the case would be over. Silly. If one is not looking at this realistically, I can see this comment making a point. If one is being realistic, the jury is going to look at why he was suspicious to GZ, why he was profiling him, and what happened in the minutes that were missing.

None of us know for certain what happened - but saying, as you did above, "Send him my way. Let's see if he's got it in him" may be a great insight into what TM may have thought as well. Maybe it's a bad kid thing, not a kid that deserves to be shot - just one that's not going to take someone's bull or afraid of being in trouble. JMO

 

[Donjeta]

The question in my mind about those last seconds is this. Both George and Trayvon's girl friend agree that Trayvon asked George why he was following and that George asked Trayvon what he was doing there. Why did Trayvon not simply say, I'm staying with my Dad over at *advertiser censored* address. Even if he thought George was going for a gun rather than his cell during that conversation (which I don't think has been established and I'm not sure I believe, anyway) wouldn't a reasonable reaction be "Wait! Dude!, my dad's gf lives here -- right over there. I'm just on my way home!!!"

SBM.

I think it depends on how Trayvon understood the situation. If GZ had informed TM that he was the neighborhood watch and that's why he was asking questions because he didn't recognize TM it would have been a pretty reasonable reaction. But if GZ didn't identify himself, and I haven't heard anybody say that he did, TM may have had other thoughts about the stalker's motives and it might not have occurred to him to suppose that this is just an overzealous NW guy and this sort of information would satisfy the person. If you think it's a homicidal maniac or a white supremacist you wouldn't wanna tell him where you live and if you think it's a mugger saying you live nearby wouldn't help either.

I find it sad and ironic that apparently GZ's defense for the attack on a LE officer was that he didn't identify himself as LE so it was justified to beat him up and now here he is in trouble and says he got attacked in a situation that he could very possibly have avoided by introducing himself politely.

 

[jaded cat]

Why is it everyone forgets that TM came toward GZ's truck, and then took off running. Do you think this is going to tell a jury TM was scared? This is indisputable evidence. GZ said TM looked "really" suspicious, he didn't say there was a kid walking down the sidewalk. Why would an AA young man look suspicious walking down the sidewalk in a community that is 1/3 AA? TM took off running and then, apparently stopped somewhere for two full minutes. A jury is going to look at this, not at what the media has maliciously put out there to brainwash the public.

He couldn't have been "chasing" him - in order to have done that, TM would have had to wait two minutes for GZ to catch up with him. It's common sense, reality, and JMO

I don't forget GZ said that, I just don't believe his version of the events.

 

[vlpate]

Originally Posted by vlpate
Why is it everyone forgets that TM came toward GZ's truck, and then took off running. Do you think this is going to tell a jury TM was scared? This is indisputable evidence.

Perhaps you missed this. Where is this indisputable evidence you have? Sounds intriguing.

No, I didn't miss it, I was under the impression everyone had heard the 911 call, the above can be found there.

 

[Karmady]

A 17-year-old doesn't always have the presence of mind that we'd like them to have. I sure didn't. :what: and BBM I can see calling the cops as being reasonable. Not heeding the guidance from the dispatcher? No. Seems like self-importance trumped rational thought.

I am trying to think of any circumstance where I may choose to follow someone and I can't really think of one. It's not in my nature to play cop. I'm a good citizen though. All JMO

Imo, it doesn't take much presence of mind to answer a direct question about why you are in a neighborhood. Especially if the alternative is potential death by gunshot (which, as I said, I don't necessarily believe).

We've been all up and down the dispatcher issue. My opinion on that is that the dispatcher is trained to do and say that which minimizes the city's potential liability, and not that which necessarily results in effective crime prevention or the apprehension of criminals. Not to mention that they have zero authority to tell anyone what to do -- also imo.

I don't see doing your best to protect your neighbors by trying to make sure you keep a suspicious person in sight is irrational or playing cop. It's just doing one's best to make sure that another neighbor, possibly one with an infant, is not put in jeopardy and in fear for her life and that of her baby. As I said, I would likely do it under those circumstances, if I didn't perceive a great risk to my own personal safety -- if, for example, there were multiple suspicious individuals or obvious deadly weapons. In fact, I'd like to think I would do it even if I *did* perceive a great risk to my own personal safety. But I can't swear that I would.

 

[vlpate]

I don't forget GZ said that, I just don't believe his version of the events.

Well I get that, problem is, the believing can't be selective - if one does not believe TM came toward him or started running, then one can't selectively believe he was following him. JMO

 

[jaded cat]

For one, imo, George obviously wasn't concerned about his own safety, but that of his neighbors and, two, in connection with your earlier post, he did call the police.

Imo, it's all about the context. It is established that there were recent break-ins in the community which are known to have been perpetrated by young men, the majority of whom were black. George had recently assisted a woman whose home was broken into by this same group of criminals while she was in the home with an infant. That woman had to hide with the baby, most certainly praying for her and her child's life the entire time, and George was aware of this and had assisted her. These same criminals or "a&%holes" (personally, I think the shoe more than fits) did, in fact, "get away," as they fled out her back door just as the police arrived.

If I were a man, particularly a man who was a neighbor involved in assisting that woman and part of the NW, I would have done anything in my power to make sure that another incident just like that didn't happen again. Because I'm a woman, I'm not sure I would have followed Trayvon, but I'm feisty and I might have. In any case, if I knew that another woman and her baby in my neighborhood had gone through that, I would have done my very best to make sure I knew where this person was until the police arrived, this time. And if that meant following the person I was suspicious of, then I would have.

It was completely fortuitous that George was wrong about Trayvon. Imo, he had every right to be suspicious and I would have been, as well. Very much so, in fact.

For those reasons, I believe that what George did up to the moment of confrontation is, potentially, completely reasonable. It's what happened in those last seconds that matters to me.

The question in my mind about those last seconds is this. Both George and Trayvon's girl friend agree that Trayvon asked George why he was following and that George asked Trayvon what he was doing there. Why did Trayvon not simply say, I'm staying with my Dad over at *advertiser censored* address. Even if he thought George was going for a gun rather than his cell during that conversation (which I don't think has been established and I'm not sure I believe, anyway) wouldn't a reasonable reaction be "Wait! Dude!, my dad's gf lives here -- right over there. I'm just on my way home!!!"

BBM
Why didn't GZ simply say, "hey, I'm with the neighborhood watch group. You look a little lost, can I help you?"

 

[highflyer]

No, I didn't miss it, I was under the impression everyone had heard the 911 call, the above can be found there.

:floorlaugh: It's indisputable because George said it? Right.

 

[rotterdam]

I always wondered why we have the term " The Human Race" as compared to what? LOL

I can answer that one. When applying for my first job in the USA(fresh from Europe) in a FLA amusement park many moons ago, I put "Human" on the application. I never ever had that race question on any application before and was puzzled by it. And since the park also had performing animals, "human" sounded logical to me. Was told later , it should be Caucasian to which I replied but I am not from the Caucasus. What a confusing complicated world we have created.

 

[vlpate]

Imo, it doesn't take much presence of mind to answer a direct question about why you are in a neighborhood. Especially if the alternative is potential death by gunshot (which, as I said, I don't necessarily believe).

We've been all up and down the dispatcher issue. My opinion on that is that the dispatcher is trained to do and say that which minimizes the city's potential liability, and not that which necessarily results in effective crime prevention or the apprehension of criminals. Not to mention that they have zero authority to tell anyone what to do -- also imo.

I don't see doing your best to protect your neighbors by trying to make sure you keep a suspicious person in sight is irrational or playing cop. It's just doing one's best to make sure that another neighbor, possibly one with an infant, is not put in jeopardy and in fear for her life and that of her baby. As I said, I would likely do it under those circumstances, if I didn't perceive a great risk to my own personal safety -- if, for example, there were multiple suspicious individuals or obvious deadly weapons. In fact, I'd like to think I would do it even if I *did* perceive a great risk to my own personal safety. But I can't swear that I would.

Having had many communities just like Twin Lakes as my responsibility, I can safely say I would call LE, and keep an eye on whomever seemed suspicious and fit the criminal profile, for as long as I could. The woman with the baby is who I always think about. He told her he would keep an eye on her place but she moved out almost immediately. She must have been petrified with fear. That could have been his wife, it could have been Brandi G. He was watching someone "acting really suspicious" and didn't want them to get away. I don't fault him for that or for trying to see where he went. The rest is up to a jury to figure out. JMO

 

[vlpate]

:floorlaugh: It's indisputable because George said it? Right.

What exactly is disputable? That he ran or that he came toward the truck?

 

[Karmady]

SBM.

I think it depends on how Trayvon understood the situation. If GZ had informed TM that he was the neighborhood watch and that's why he was asking questions because he didn't recognize TM it would have been a pretty reasonable reaction. But if GZ didn't identify himself, and I haven't heard anybody say that he did, TM may have had other thoughts about the stalker's motives and it might not have occurred to him to suppose that this is just an overzealous NW guy and this sort of information would satisfy the person. If you think it's a homicidal maniac or a white supremacist you wouldn't wanna tell him where you live and if you think it's a mugger saying you live nearby wouldn't help either.

I find it sad and ironic that apparently GZ's defense for the attack on a LE officer was that he didn't identify himself as LE so it was justified to beat him up and now here he is in trouble and says he got attacked in a situation that he could very possibly have avoided by introducing himself politely.

As soon as keeping an eye on a potential criminal trespasser is characterized as "stalking," I lose interest in the conversation.

Same for accepting and adopting the media's characterization of George as "white," as in white supremacist. Imo, George does not appear to be a stereotypical "white" person by a long shot, and suggesting that he could legitimately be stereotyped by Trayvon as such is, imo, completely beyond the realm of reasonable discourse. In fact, the MS account that recently surfaced ::cough::: pretty much establishes that George does not consider himself to be "white" and that his friends include blacks and other minorities in large numbers.

 

[suspicious1]

SBM.

I think it depends on how Trayvon understood the situation. If GZ had informed TM that he was the neighborhood watch and that's why he was asking questions because he didn't recognize TM it would have been a pretty reasonable reaction. But if GZ didn't identify himself, and I haven't heard anybody say that he did, TM may have had other thoughts about the stalker's motives and it might not have occurred to him to suppose that this is just an overzealous NW guy and this sort of information would satisfy the person. If you think it's a homicidal maniac or a white supremacist you wouldn't wanna tell him where you live and if you think it's a mugger saying you live nearby wouldn't help either.

I find it sad and ironic that apparently GZ's defense for the attack on a LE officer was that he didn't identify himself as LE so it was justified to beat him up and now here he is in trouble and says he got attacked in a situation that he could very possibly have avoided by introducing himself politely.

I was thinking the same thing.

People want to excuse GZ behavior talking about "oh the officer didn't identify himself" and that somehow made is behavior OK. It does not.
GZ was trying to handle someone else's problem and that behavior is OK?

Tray had every right to ask that loser why he was following him. That's what GZ was doing, right? That was GZ cue to let Trayvon know he was and he didn't. Instead he said "what are you doing here?" To me that was the confrontation starter.

JMO

 

[vlpate]

As soon as keeping an eye on a potential criminal trespasser is characterized as "stalking," I lose interest in the conversation.

Same for accepting and adopting the media's characterization of George as "white," as in white supremacist. Imo, George does not appear to be a stereotypical "white" person by a long shot, and suggesting that he could legitimately be stereotyped by Trayvon as such is, imo, completely beyond the realm of reasonable discourse. In fact, the MS account that recently surfaced ::cough::: pretty much establishes that George does not consider himself to be "white" and that his friends include blacks and other minorities in large numbers.

...and then there are times when even the media is gullible. :floorlaugh:

 

[Karmady]

[/B]
BBM
Why didn't GZ simply say, "hey, I'm with the neighborhood watch group. You look a little lost, can I help you?"

Idk, but I would guess it was because he perceived himself as, between the two of them, the person rightfully where he was and Trayvon as a person who was not. He had not seen Trayvon in the neighborhood before and perceived him as a potential criminal threat. Under the circumstances, rightfully or wrongfully, he probably wasn't putting himself into the mind of an innocent kid visiting the neighborhood, but rather putting himself into the mind of a potential criminal. If that was his mindset, and I believe that it was, I can see how his first thought would be to ask the questions, and not to respond to Trayvon. jmo