18 y/o Black male shot dead by Police in St Louis suburb of Berkeley MO

[CoolJ]

The police neither owe you or others an explanation. No different than in any crime in NORTH AMERICA. A special investigation unit collects all evidence in a police involved shooting, presents their findings and it goes thru due process, but you know that.

You're from Canada. The SIU, specifically, in Toronto does exactly the same process, but you know that too. The TPS in Toronto when they have a shooting also won't speak to CBC, Toronto STAR, etc. or release all evidence BECAUSE the SIU is handling the investigation, not the police but you know that.

Besides, who cares whether his camera(s) were on or not? I don't. His Patrol car lightbar wasn't on either. Who cares? I don't.
None of that matters. It had no bearing on a 's assault with a deadly weapon AS CAUGHT ON SOMEONE ELSE'S CAMERAS. If it had been filmed by the cop AND his dashcam it would be a conspiracy that the po po doctored the video.

If it had been a white he would be just as dead and none of the peripheral body cam/dash cameras, etc. would have made a difference either.

Your previous post indicate a severe need to say something. Your posts continue to ask posters here "to peel back the onion." As if there exist some profound epiphany that someone in Toronto has discovered but that we in the US can't.

The problem is regardless of white or black , if you play stupid games with the police you're going to win stupid prizes. Obey the laws of the land, don't point guns at cops and enjoy life eh?

I didn't ask for an explanation. I already conceded that it was probably a justified shooting. But my point is, there is a level of distrust for LE. Right or wrong that cannot be disputed. This officer was given a bodycam to wear that day. With all that has been going on, he should have done his job and wore the bodycam. Get those dashcams on 24/7. It is for the safety of everyone, including and especially LE. I am speaking about making things better going forward. You seem to be advocating maintaining status quo as it is the criminals who should be changing their ways. But guess what, they are criminals, that change is gonna be a long road. LE are the professionals, the authority. Even if they don't believe they have earned any distrust, can't they step up and show us all why we should trust them?
You continue to attack my posts and all I am doing is offering discussion over and over as to how we can make things better.

1) all cops in North America wear bodycams
2) all cops start standing up to and turn in their fellow officers who cross the legal line
3) dash cams in all squad cars and turned on 24/7
4) PR campaigns aimed at educating the public on what their rights are when interacting with LE

These are just ideas from an amateur sleuth. You are the Pro, you tell me if you think they will work. But at least start moving the discussion in a direction of positive change.

 

[Sonya610]

It's become clear to me that to a few people there just aren't any justified police shootings.

It's not just police shootings either. When similar youths are shot by their robbery victims the families say the SAME THING!

The crazy thing is they BELIEVE they are being picked on and treated unfairly, when the teens rob and threaten to kill others it is UNFAIR for others to take action. To me that sounds like a superiority complex, they can do unto others but those others have NO RIGHT to do anything in response.

 

[Archangel7]

I didn't ask for an explanation. I already conceded that it was probably a justified shooting. But my point is, there is a level of distrust for LE. Right or wrong that cannot be disputed. This officer was given a bodycam to wear that day. With all that has been going on, he should have done his job and wore the bodycam. Get those dashcams on 24/7. It is for the safety of everyone, including and especially LE. I am speaking about making things better going forward. You seem to be advocating maintaining status quo as it is the criminals who should be changing their ways. But guess what, they are criminals, that change is gonna be a long road. LE are the professionals, the authority. Even if they don't believe they have earned any distrust, can't they step up and show us all why we should trust them?
You continue to attack my posts and all I am doing is offering discussion over and over as to how we can make things better.

1) all cops in North America wear bodycams
2) all cops start standing up to and turn in their fellow officers who cross the legal line
3) dash cams in all squad cars and turned on 24/7
4) PR campaigns aimed at educating the public on what their rights are when interacting with LE

These are just ideas from an amateur sleuth. You are the Pro, you tell me if you think they will work. But at least start moving the discussion in a direction of positive change.

BBM

Difficult to debate your posts with any sort of logic given the irrational bolded part.

What will work? Quite committing crimes. Fisherman fish where the fish are. Cops prevent and enforce laws where the crimes are. Most people likely live their life with no real contact with the police. The corollary to that is criminals have much contact with cops. Funny how that works. Similar to sick folk and doctors, when they aren't sick they never see a doctor.

Quite the circular logic to ask the cops, the State, the Nation to change their enforcement because the criminals won't/can't stop being criminals.

Incarceration is how criminals are prevented from committing crimes and how society is protected.

I'm not attacking your post. If you post here expect to be challenged on the posts you make.

 

[greycoupon]

If it had been a white he would be just as dead and none of the peripheral body cam/dash cameras, etc. would have made a difference either.

I'm not sure about that and there's research to back up blacks are more likely to die in encounters with LE than whites. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447171/ and this study found blacks were 21 times more likely to be shot by police than whites This is what the protesters are looking at. They don't think these young men are saints. They think if they were white they'd still be breathing.

The fact that this officer had two cameras that weren't on just makes the situation worse. I think the dashcam needs to be recording whenever the car is running, not just when the lights are on.

One thing all of these events makes clear is that there needs to be a national database of people who are killed as a result of encounters with police.

 

[Trident]

I think the families of these wanna-be cop killer thugs know the truth, but they'll never admit it publicly. It would be refreshing to hear just one admit that their family member brought their death on themselves because of their bad choices and lifestyles, not because of the police.

No, I don't believe these parents do know. All they know is that a white policeman killed their child and someone needs to pay. They do not care what their child did, only what was done to their child. I don't believe the parents of these thugs think about society and the law in the same way most of us here do. I say this because my AA friend and I talk about current events a lot and there is no way to convince her that these teens are breaking the law and that's why they're dead. She only knows that a white man/LE killed her child and she is filled with rage - two entirely different ways of viewing the world.

My opinion only

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I thought L.A. looked more like Tiananmen Square than America. We're better than all of this. We are permitted to protest peacefully and the rule L.A. had (you had to keep moving) was embarrassing. Listen to the BBC and other foreign English speaking newscast. They are so surprised L.E. and citizens have guns. We can amend the Constitution (free speech-but you can yell "fire" in a crowded theatre etc), why can't we amend the gun laws to something that is not third world and become the country we pretend to be? ^i^

There is no need to amend our gun laws. There are countless gun laws on the books already.

Criminals don't care one bit about gun laws and they never will. They will continue to do just like Antonio Martin did, and steal or purchase illegal weapons from other criminals.

Only law abiding gun owners follow the rules. Anything that becomes restricted just becomes a bigger problem for us just like it has when we tried to enforce selling illegal drugs and prohibited alcohol during prohibition. All it did was make millionaires of those who bootlegged alcohol and made billionaire drug lords who traffic illegal drugs.

Illegal gun running is big business too. So if we restrict law abiding citizens from having access to legal weapons and leave them with no way to protect themselves then the only ones who will have them are the criminals and thugs on the street who want to do violent crimes. Every decent law abiding citizens will become sitting ducks. That is the reason why most criminals.... (including murderers, armed robbers, and rapists....) target those they know are unarmed and have no way to protect themselves.

Plus our violent crime rate has continued to drop in the past 5 years yet there are over a million legal gun owners in our country with over 200 million guns owned. Which shows it isn't the legal gun owners doing the vast majority of violent crimes.

The murder rate here was much higher in the 90s than it is today yet there are more legally purchased guns than ever before. The problem isn't the guns. It is the individuals that doesn't respect any laws and doesn't value human life.

Once the UK put in place restrictive gun laws the violent crime rate using knives skyrocketed.

IMO

 

[greycoupon]

Let me just add that one thing we desperately need is for police to be trained in deescalation. Whether a cop is dealing with a suspicious individual or a group of angry protesters, they need to be trying to calm the situation. I recognize a cop has a right to defend themselves. I would like to think there is a way out of an encounter with an armed suspect that doesn't involve lethal force but recognize that may not always be the case.

Look, cops are there to serve and protect. This is a very important role in society that we attach certain expectations to. They need to be able to do the job. These are not random people off the street. They are trained officers of the law. Which means when people are yelling profanity they need to take it rather then escalating the situation. If I can't trust a cop to keep his school when people are cursing him out then I certainly can't trust he can keep his cool when using a gun. Being rude isn't illegal. Obscuring or hiding their badge number is wrong. Some departments have regulations related to that, I have no idea what the case is in Mo.

However you feel about the situation it is irresponsible at this point for LE in the St Louis area to not be trying to keep situations like this calm. People are going to get upset over any officer involved shooting and they know this.

 

[RANCH]

There is no need to amend our gun laws. There are countless gun laws on the books already.

Criminals don't care one bit about gun laws and they never will. They will continue to do just like Antonio Martin did, and steal or purchase illegal weapons from other criminals.

Only law abiding gun owners follow the rules. Anything that becomes restricted just becomes a bigger problem for us just like it has when we tried to enforce selling illegal drugs and prohibited alcohol during prohibition. All it did was make millionaires of those who bootlegged alcohol and made billionaire drug lords who traffic illegal drugs.

Illegal gun running is big business too. So if we restrict law abiding citizens from having access to legal weapons and leave them with no way to protect themselves then the only ones who will have them are the criminals and thugs on the street who want to do violent crimes. Every decent law abiding citizens will become sitting ducks. That is the reason why most criminals.... (including murderers, armed robbers, and rapists....) target those they know are unarmed and have no way to protect themselves.

Plus our violent crime rate has continued to drop in the past 5 years yet there are over a million legal gun owners in our country with over 200 million guns owned. Which shows it isn't the legal gun owners doing the vast majority of violent crimes.

The murder rate here was much higher in the 90s than it is today yet there are more legally purchased guns than ever before. The problem isn't the guns. It is the individuals that doesn't respect any laws and doesn't value human life.

Once the UK put in place restrictive gun laws the violent crime rate using knives skyrocketed.

IMO

Well said. Criminals ignore guns laws. Apparently Antonio Martin was one of those individuals.

Police say they recovered a gun they believed to be Martin’s at the scene. Belmar said the gun’s serial number was defaced, indicating it could have been stolen or contraband.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/24/st-louis-antonio-martin-video-police-shooting

 

[Trident]

It's just plain crazy to think LE needs to do this, that, the other, change their ways, only use force that is "allowed". When the thugs, and their enablers change their ways, this country will be a better place. I quite frankly don't care if some ghetto rats don't trust the police, I don't trust them, and I'll bet a lot more people are beginning to feel that way. In my opinion, of course.

 

[stmarysmead]

We also desperately need to teach children respect for authority, starting when they are very young. Respect for teachers, police, elders, etc. That means not emulating what the trash culture of gangbangers and rap music fills their head and mouth with, what the trash TV tells them is "funny" or "impressive".

PArenting is also a very important role in society...maybe the most important. And we should have expectations of those who bring a child in the world that is more than just spawning a creature. Too many children get no guidance...get no help in finding the right path.

Don't put all the expectations on police to deal with society's misfits. Those misfits were first and foremost the responsibility of the two people who brought him into the world. The buck stops THERE.

Something is seriously WRONG in many of these neighborhoods. Saying that the unfortunate police or teachers need to train themselves to put up with filth and appalling behavior is essentially condoning it...like it is inevitable. Many poor people raise up stellar decent people. The difference is..they "RAISE" their kids...not go on to the next party , the next man, the next drug.

People need to stop saying police have to change but thugs don't. That is going to be part of any dialogue we have in this nation...because people are fed up.

 

[Curious Guy]

It's just plain crazy to think LE needs to do this, that, the other, change their ways, only use force that is "allowed". When the thugs, and their enablers change their ways, this country will be a better place. I quite frankly don't care if some ghetto rats don't trust the police, I don't trust them, and I'll bet a lot more people are beginning to feel that way. In my opinion, of course.

It's circular logic used to try and shift the blame from the criminal to LEO.

 

[Curious Guy]

We also desperately need to teach children respect for authority, starting when they are very young. Respect for teachers, police, elders, etc. That means not emulating what the trash culture of gangbangers and rap music fills their head and mouth with, what the trash TV tells them is "funny" or "impressive".

PArenting is also a very important role in society...maybe the most important. And we should have expectations of those who bring a child in the world that is more than just spawning a creature. Too many children get no guidance...get no help in finding the right path.

Don't put all the expectations on police to deal with society's misfits. Those misfits were first and foremost the responsibility of the two people who brought him into the world. The buck stops THERE.

Something is seriously WRONG in many of these neighborhoods. Saying that the unfortunate police or teachers need to train themselves to put up with filth and appalling behavior is essentially condoning it...like it is inevitable. Many poor people raise up stellar decent people. The difference is..they "RAISE" their kids...not go on to the next party , the next man, the next drug.

People need to stop saying police have to change but thugs don't. That is going to be part of any dialogue we have in this nation...because people are fed up.

Awesome post. Personal responsibility is apparently a foreign concept to many. I just can't imagine committing a crime and blaming LEO afterwards. Then again I've never considered holding my breath and laying in the street when I didn't get my way.

 

[popsicle]

Willis Arnold
@WillisRArnold
#AntonioMartin's family lights candle at his memorial. Ask for time to evaluate what happened here

At least it appears the family is trying to look at the facts and evidence... I think the Mayor probably spoke to the Mom. But, her words fell on deaf ears because the protesters are in the streets shutting them down anyways.

:snowman::snowflake::christmastree::santa:rnament::santahat:Merry Christmas Eve

 

[stmarysmead]

I

Willis Arnold
@WillisRArnold
#AntonioMartin's family lights candle at his memorial. Ask for time to evaluate what happened here

At least it appears the family is trying to look at the facts and evidence... I think the Mayor probably spoke to the Mom. But, her words fell on deaf ears because the protesters are in the streets shutting them down anyways.

:snowman::snowflake::christmastree::santa:rnament::santahat:Merry Christmas Eve

Prayers for that Mom tonight. I hope she has many people Inher life that will comfort and love her.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Let me just add that one thing we desperately need is for police to be trained in deescalation. Whether a cop is dealing with a suspicious individual or a group of angry protesters, they need to be trying to calm the situation. I recognize a cop has a right to defend themselves. I would like to think there is a way out of an encounter with an armed suspect that doesn't involve lethal force but recognize that may not always be the case.

Look, cops are there to serve and protect. This is a very important role in society that we attach certain expectations to. They need to be able to do the job. These are not random people off the street. They are trained officers of the law. Which means when people are yelling profanity they need to take it rather then escalating the situation. If I can't trust a cop to keep his school when people are cursing him out then I certainly can't trust he can keep his cool when using a gun. Being rude isn't illegal. Obscuring or hiding their badge number is wrong. Some departments have regulations related to that, I have no idea what the case is in Mo.

However you feel about the situation it is irresponsible at this point for LE in the St Louis area to not be trying to keep situations like this calm. People are going to get upset over any officer involved shooting and they know this.

No way **anyone** should have to take people cursing at them & making death threats to them while they are doing their job.
That is intolerable.
That is inhumane.
As a citizen, I would never allow any other human being (regardless of their title or profession) to be treated that way.

 

[teedie2]

Holy cow, he sure did. If you make the video large screen, it's clear as day.

Holy Smoke! Now, why didn't I ever try that? Plain as day. I was even watching the wrong person. Full screen video it is from now on.

 

[Caffeine]

Why is this even news? Because he's black? Because it happened in Missouri? Because the officer is white?

He pulled a gun on an officer and the media tries to play it off like it's just another cop shooting a helpless black male.



Sent from my SGH-T769 using Tapatalk 2

 

[MsFacetious]

I'm not sure about that and there's research to back up blacks are more likely to die in encounters with LE than whites. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447171/ and this study found blacks were 21 times more likely to be shot by police than whites This is what the protesters are looking at. They don't think these young men are saints. They think if they were white they'd still be breathing.

The fact that this officer had two cameras that weren't on just makes the situation worse. I think the dashcam needs to be recording whenever the car is running, not just when the lights are on.

One thing all of these events makes clear is that there needs to be a national database of people who are killed as a result of encounters with police.

The dash cam works when the lights are on, the car does not have to be running.
However when responding to a theft at a store you don't generally use your lights.

I don't think the officer pulled up on a reported theft and then exited his car with it still running.
That's a great way to get your ride stolen. :twocents:

Perhaps the dash cams should simply run 24-7?
The problem is that they only store a certain amount of time.
So odds are if they were running constantly the footage we would want would be erased anyway. :twocents:

 

[bettybaby00]

I wouldn't be surprised if someone will say that the officer should have told the to drop the gun before he shot him. Or shoot him in the leg or some other ridiculous thing.

Or run/drive away, as was suggested in the mike brown shooting.

SMH

 

[RANCH]

The dash cam works when the lights are on, the car does not have to be running.
However when responding to a theft at a store you don't generally use your lights.

I don't think the officer pulled up on a reported theft and then exited his car with it still running.
That's a great way to get your ride stolen. :twocents:

Perhaps the dash cams should simply run 24-7?
The problem is that they only store a certain amount of time.
So odds are if they were running constantly the footage we would want would be erased anyway. :twocents:

They could record like they do on commercial airliner black boxes where the last few hours of information is saved. If something happens of importance, the last part usually tells the story. JMO.