2009.06.19 FBI Decomposition Report

[Solace]

Hi!:seeya: :twocents: Yep, that odor got into the rug and throughout the car as the vehicle was sealed or at least the air flow was severely minimized during the extended time period that the vehicle remained within the confines of the TOW YARD. I:innocent: "assume" that it was under direct sunlight and the atmosphere within that vehicle was like a lovely Summer vacation :floorlaugh: for all the "wonderful" (read: icky, smell producing microscopic "critters") bacteria, virus & fungi who were previously inhabiting other environments (read:a small human body & a poorly "house kept" vehicle) yet under somewhat "controlled" conditions that minimized odor and now it was :sick: "PARTY TIME":sick: in, under, over & around that rug. Whatever attempts the felon :loser: made to minimize/control/eliminate the effects of the ravages of decomposition of her child created within her vehicle, they only produced IMHO a temporary solution and effected along with the "work" of whomever :loser: also attempted to sanitize that vehicle, a "minimal lethal dose" for the insects et al trying to set up habitation BUT only while there was adequate nourishment available.:woohoo:

DNA would be present ONLY if there were nucleated celluar materials within the decompositional fluids, i.e. skin cells (epithelials) WHITE (leukocytes) blood cells, organ tissue cells (kidney, bucal,hepatic,etc) and even then one has to hope that the DNA profile survives the degradation impact of the environmental elements.:truce:

SO.......:great:CSI/L&O and all like genre:great:, the TV & movies have made we the populace "smarter" in some aspects but also more demanding :banghead: AND somewhat unrealistic :banghead: when it comes to what actual reality is/can be TODAY but........HANG ON, the "NEW SCIENTISTS" :rocker: are phenomenal and I :innocent: predict many many more Frye challenges & WINS :rocker: in many more cases!

Thanks Joy.

 

[Solace]

Narcissists can't take responsibility, they blame everyone else. The whole family suffers from this dynamic, IMO.

It is incredible. Horrible enough that the child was killed but adding insult to injury by denying this and then CA having George say he believes KC when he did not in the beginning.

CA just can't bear to believe that the child was killed because of KC's hatred at the moment for Cindy. I really think that was the case.

 

[AZlawyer]

Hi!:seeya: :twocents: Yep, that odor got into the rug and throughout the car as the vehicle was sealed or at least the air flow was severely minimized during the extended time period that the vehicle remained within the confines of the TOW YARD. I:innocent: "assume" that it was under direct sunlight and the atmosphere within that vehicle was like a lovely Summer vacation :floorlaugh: for all the "wonderful" (read: icky, smell producing microscopic "critters") bacteria, virus & fungi who were previously inhabiting other environments (read:a small human body & a poorly "house kept" vehicle) yet under somewhat "controlled" conditions that minimized odor and now it was :sick: "PARTY TIME":sick: in, under, over & around that rug. Whatever attempts the felon :loser: made to minimize/control/eliminate the effects of the ravages of decomposition of her child created within her vehicle, they only produced IMHO a temporary solution and effected along with the "work" of whomever :loser: also attempted to sanitize that vehicle, a "minimal lethal dose" for the insects et al trying to set up habitation BUT only while there was adequate nourishment available.:woohoo:

DNA would be present ONLY if there were nucleated celluar materials within the decompositional fluids, i.e. skin cells (epithelials) WHITE (leukocytes) blood cells, organ tissue cells (kidney, bucal,hepatic,etc) and even then one has to hope that the DNA profile survives the degradation impact of the environmental elements.:truce:

SO.......:great:CSI/L&O and all like genre:great:, the TV & movies have made we the populace "smarter" in some aspects but also more demanding :banghead: AND somewhat unrealistic :banghead: when it comes to what actual reality is/can be TODAY but........HANG ON, the "NEW SCIENTISTS" :rocker: are phenomenal and I :innocent: predict many many more Frye challenges & WINS :rocker: in many more cases!

Joy, back in November when we had a big doc dump while I was on a road trip to DC with one of my law partners, I tried to explain to her what I put in bold above. Her reaction--"that's stupid, they can get DNA from anything on CSI"

Most lawyers have not taken too many science classes lol.

 

[MissJames]

Okay, so I am going to say she killed her, put the body in a black trash bag and then put the body in the laundry bag and figured she could ride around with it.

It is beyond bizarre. No wonder George and Cindy are lying whenever they get ont he stand. George lies when he opens his mouth.

He has such hatred in him for the prosecution. This has to be "transference" - don't you think? Why would he hate them so much and not KC? KC is the murderer.

Ridiculous question I know, but he really really hates LDB. But it has to be transference, because if it were a pedofile on the stand, he would be 100% behind LDB.

I've mentioned this before,but I think George was initially willing to help put Casey away.He enjoyed being part of the LE team and seen as one of them.I bet he considered it a bonus that he was secretly circumventing Cindy's position.
Then the LE interview tapes came out and the one taken when LE was was in the car with George arranging a private visit with KC ,the visitation tapes,and George felt duped. I think that's when he switched sides. That's when George left Team Caylee and started lying about the smell.

 

[Solace]

George did not know that the car was taped that day; he said so at the hearing.

George gave an interview to LE on July 24th and then to the FBI - Cindy did not know about the July 24 hearing right away. George tells the FBI andn LE that he apologizes for Cindy's behaviour. He said he and Cindy had hellacious arguments and that Cindy said he was on LE's side.

I think he just folded and did what Cindy wanted. Where was he going? Nowhere. He has no job, he is weak and he folded and he looked like a wounded animal on the LKL show where he says he would not have done what LE did when arresting KC. Cindy makes sure to stare at him every time he answers.

Plain and simple, Cindy got to him and George "went along". IMO

 

[Baxter]

He has such hatred in him for the prosecution. This has to be "transference" - don't you think? Why would he hate them so much and not KC? KC is the murderer..

snipped Solace

I definitely think George is using transference.
He was never able to let any anger be shown towards KC.
Poor LDB.

 

[Just Jayla]

snipped Solace

I definitely think George is using transference.
He was never able to let any anger be shown towards KC.
Poor LDB.

IMO, George told us/LE a long time ago why he is so angry now....he repeatedly told them that he "does not want to say, does not want to believe that he could raise somebody that......" blah blah blah.

He is afraid LDB is going to make him say it.

Doubt she will.

 

[MADJGNLAW]

(thank you! :blowkiss[/B] 3888479]FBI Decomposition Report

Two bombshells for me:

• The chloroform in the car was unusually high - about one million times higher than a normal decomposing body at that stage.

• The paper towels found in the garbage bag removed from the trunk had evidence of decomposition on them, indicating KC attempted to clean the mess, and threw the used towels into the bag from Tony's apartment.

BBM
I wanted to bump this up since we are waiting for Judge Perry to decided what he will allow in at trial by April 21st. I think.

Anyway, this was the FBI report, not from Oak Ridge. The DT is claiming that Oak Ridge's finding are junk science-to new. Well, what about the FBI's findings? I wounder if JP will take a look at the FBI report before making up his mind.

Thoughts?

 

[Gma Kat]

Okay, so I am going to say she killed her, put the body in a black trash bag and then put the body in the laundry bag and figured she could ride around with it.

It is beyond bizarre. No wonder George and Cindy are lying whenever they get ont he stand. George lies when he opens his mouth.

He has such hatred in him for the prosecution. This has to be "transference" - don't you think? Why would he hate them so much and not KC? KC is the murderer.

Ridiculous question I know, but he really really hates LDB. But it has to be transference, because if it were a pedofile on the stand, he would be 100% behind LDB.

BBM: I have begun to think that this transference is due in part to his feelings towards CA and ICA.

LDB represents what a truly strong woman should be.

 

[Gma Kat]

I have always been perplexed by the many statements of the smell of decomp by GA, CA, the tow-yard employee (SB),I'm sure there are a couple of statements by people I am forgetting offhand, and of course Dr. Vass..............then there is TL who states he did not smell anything when he helped ICA with her gas can adventure.....this was dismissed easily in Diane Fanning's book as being the result of the gas fumes....then I recalled something that happened to me...

I was working really early one morning, arrived at work at about 3:30 a.m., there was a truck with a campershell parked next to my building. We were the only 2 vehicles anywhere.....I parked in the very next parking stall even though all the rest were empty (I knew my car would remain shaded in that particular stall) and I went to work. When I went to my car at the end of that day the vehicle was gone and I though nothing of it. Turns out that once folks starting showing up at the building at starting time (around 7am) they smelled decomp and called police. A dead body was discovered in the truck and through security cameras determined the vehicle had been there for 3-days. About 2 or 3 hours had passed between the time I parked right next to the truck and when the smell was so strong someone called LE. So why didn't I smell it?

 

[momtective]

I have always been perplexed by the many statements of the smell of decomp by GA, CA, the tow-yard employee (SB),I'm sure there are a couple of statements by people I am forgetting offhand, and of course Dr. Vass..............then there is TL who states he did not smell anything when he helped ICA with her gas can adventure.....this was dismissed easily in Diane Fanning's book as being the result of the gas fumes....then I recalled something that happened to me...

I was working really early one morning, arrived at work at about 3:30 a.m., there was a truck with a campershell parked next to my building. We were the only 2 vehicles anywhere.....I parked in the very next parking stall even though all the rest were empty (I knew my car would remain shaded in that particular stall) and I went to work. When I went to my car at the end of that day the vehicle was gone and I though nothing of it. Turns out that once folks starting showing up at the building at starting time (around 7am) they smelled decomp and called police. A dead body was discovered in the truck and through security cameras determined the vehicle had been there for 3-days. About 2 or 3 hours had passed between the time I parked right next to the truck and when the smell was so strong someone called LE. So why didn't I smell it?

Wind shift?:waitasec:

 

[ynotdivein]

Bumping this thread for further review.

 

[tlcya]

TY for bumping and linking ynotdivein

I think I am going to review all the physical evidence as to me, it becomes key in laying out why the new, long anticipated, throw the A s, her only real allies, under the bus DT tactic is not realistic explanation for ICA's actions.

 

[Marina2]

I have always been perplexed by the many statements of the smell of decomp by GA, CA, the tow-yard employee (SB),I'm sure there are a couple of statements by people I am forgetting offhand, and of course Dr. Vass..............then there is TL who states he did not smell anything when he helped ICA with her gas can adventure.....this was dismissed easily in Diane Fanning's book as being the result of the gas fumes....then I recalled something that happened to me...

I was working really early one morning, arrived at work at about 3:30 a.m., there was a truck with a campershell parked next to my building. We were the only 2 vehicles anywhere.....I parked in the very next parking stall even though all the rest were empty (I knew my car would remain shaded in that particular stall) and I went to work. When I went to my car at the end of that day the vehicle was gone and I though nothing of it. Turns out that once folks starting showing up at the building at starting time (around 7am) they smelled decomp and called police. A dead body was discovered in the truck and through security cameras determined the vehicle had been there for 3-days. About 2 or 3 hours had passed between the time I parked right next to the truck and when the smell was so strong someone called LE. So why didn't I smell it?

There's always been the question of how did TL get so close to the car (when he took KC back to it with the gas cans) and not smell any odor. This was on the 23rd of June. There would have been a strong odor then. Your experience shows that, for whatever reason, it's possible for this to happen.

 

[tankgirl]

Here is some interesting reading on adipocere.

http://chestofbooks.com/reference/American-Cyclopaedia-V1/Adipocere.html

Note that the adipocere happens at the soft tissue region of the corpse and there must be fat. With Caylee being a little baby-fat person, she would have had plenty:



It goes on to explain that the adipose tissue is not what turns into adipocere, but it is the transformation of the adipose tissue during decomposition under certain conditions that taints the surrounding soft tissue and causes the creation of adipocere.

Then note from here...

http://chestofbooks.com/reference/American-Cyclopaedia-V1/Adipose-Tissue.html

that adipose tissue typically is present in the following areas of the body:



But at the same time, adipocere formation is another data point toward anaerobic decomposition...

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Adipocere

which means that the body had to have been decomposing sans oxygen up to the point it was handled by KC and then the paper towels used. This would go contrary to the idea that Caylee was in the trunk for some period of time "unbagged". OR...it points to KC handling the body more than once after decomposition began (i.e. bagged once???? bagged twice??? etc.)

In this abstract of a research paper on how the method of burial affects the formation of adipocere

http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(04)00635-8/abstract

it states that...



This book, Death, decay and deconstruction

http://books.google.com/books?id=zA...GhxLAO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

explicitly states that the body does not need to be submerged in water, as earlier writings had suggested, in order for adipocere to form



There's some other interesting points in this last book



Ringer's solution is defined as

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/504086/Ringers-solution



Which would infer that if body fluids are available, they will promote the formation of adipocere.

But also notable is the following observation



So while anaerobic conditions will promote adipocere formation, they don't appear to be necessary for its formation.

and finally, another point of stating "coverings" will promote adipocere formation:



Now, here's the quandry...

http://books.google.com/books?id=xq...hxLAO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10



The book goes on to sight 6 weeks at the earliest for adipocere formation.

But more recent research has shown

http://www.astm.org/JOURNALS/FORENSIC/PAGES/JFS4630609.htm



Now, in reviewing these writings it is found that the combination of fatty tissue (adipose tissue and soft, fatty tissue) in combination with fibrin promotes adipocere formation. Fibrin accessibility is increased at the point of a wound (i.e. fibrin is part of the hemoglobin, clotting aspects of blood). Since high concentrations of chloroform on the skin can produce open sores, the very exposure to chloroform that could have happened on Caylee's face if KC literally saturated something in order to chloroform Caylee could have led to the promotion of early adipocere formation at the cheek area.

But in addition! The formation of adipocere is dependent on the "hydrolysis [i.e. introducing water into the molecular structure] and hydrogenation [i.e. the introduction of hydrogen into the molecular structure] of lipid fats".

From here...

http://books.google.com/books?id=IN...TD0JUP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6

we find that using a solvent (i.e. chloroform) facilitates the hydrogenation of fatty acids



In conclusion, I think the formation of adipocere in such a very short time points to the use of chloroform in the area around Caylee's little fatty cheeks.

This is a really interesting post and the thread is worth a review. I missed a lot of good info the first time around. Bump-worthy?