2009.06.19 FBI Decomposition Report

[Numbers]

According to this OSHA report:

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/chloroform/recognition.html

.... chloroform has a "pleasant, sweet odor."

**IF** it lingered on or around Caylee, it may very well have been mistaken for something else. I know I tend to think of chemical smells as acrid or unpleasant, and if I smelled something sweet I would not recognize it as harmful or dangerous.

 

[KenoshaKid]

If I remember correctly, none was found in the analysis of the hair, so she couldn't have been using it for very long or it would have shown up.

 

[countzero]

Thanks YNot.

Well, she was staying at Ricardo's earlier in the year - some five days a week, according to Ricardo. And this man has no reason to lie about that - if anything, he would want to distance himself. So imo, he is truthful. Cindy around February or March seeks counseling and tells the counselor about KC's being a bad mother - This has to do with the staying out. NO ONE can tell me that if she were out five days a week with the baby, Cindy and George did not notice; yet they say to Morgan (civil lawyer) that she was out at the most 2 times a month. She tells the same to the FBI.

It is a lie. So, I am thinking that she is (cindy) is terrified that KC will leave with the baby and is overlooking KC lying about work, stealing from the family, the grandmother, the grandfather, friends, Jesse, everyone. I mean she tells Amy, forget it, that money is gone.

She had to have noticed traces of it here and there and maybe she did not put it together that she was using it to chloroform the baby. But it had to get on the baby's hair at some point, some of it - and at some point Cindy had to smell it. Had to.

Cindy lies so much that I know she would not admit that. She was lying to George and saying she is working, she said she is and that is it - lets not make her mad. IMO.

I think they had to have noticed it.

rbbm: This is incorrect. CA in her state depo with Linda, told Linda she saw the counselor because of financial worries. She said nothing about ICA being a bad mother. CA also told Linda the counselor suggested she come back with ICA. CA told Linda the counselor suggested ICA move out with Caylee. CA nixed the idea and only had the one visit to that counselor. The depo is up in the research thread. Until we actually have this confirmed by LE, I don't believe CAs version.

They being CA and GA knew what the decomp odor meant at the tow yard.

And to get back on topic, I also believe ICA was giving Calyee OTC meds to get and keep her asleep. Young mothers do it up in my area. Which realy upsets me when they talk openingly about doing it. I don't believe the homemade chloroform theories either. ICA isn't that smart.

 

[Solace]

rbbm: This is incorrect. CA in her state depo with Linda, told Linda she saw the counselor because of financial worries. She said nothing about ICA being a bad mother. CA also told Linda the counselor suggested she come back with ICA. CA told Linda the counselor suggested ICA move out with Caylee. CA nixed the idea and only had the one visit to that counselor. The depo is up in the research thread. Until we actually have this confirmed by LE, I don't believe CAs version.

They being CA and GA knew what the decomp odor meant at the tow yard.

And to get back on topic, I also believe ICA was giving Calyee OTC meds to get and keep her asleep. Young mothers do it up in my area. Which realy upsets me when they talk openingly about doing it. I don't believe the homemade chloroform theories either. ICA isn't that smart.

With all due respect, it is not incorrect. She has stated to detectives and others that she sought the counselor and spoke about KC and was told to kick KC out. She does not say that she thought KC was a bad mother to the detectives, but she does say the counselor told her to kick KC out. Why would the counselor tell Cindy to do that and seek custody? Probably because she was unfit to be the caretaker of Caylee. Cindy was honest with the counselor about KC and that was the advice she received. For a counselor to tell Cindy to kick her own daughter out of her house and seek custody of the grandchild, the situation presented must have been dire in the counselor's mind.

Cindy often contradicts herself in speaking to authorities - she forgets what she said in the past. A perfect example is just this and also the 911 call where she says the car smelled like there was a dead body in it. Cindy lies constantly to the FBI.

Cindy had also told Ryan Paisely she believed KC was a sociopath - this was BEFORE KC took Caylee away. This is very important because Cindy and George and Lee have the highest regard for Ryan or did even with speaking to the FBI.

She told Brittany, a neighbor and friend of KC's that KC was stealing when she was supposedly away with Caylee. George in on record saying if we had gotten custody, this would not have happened.

Several of her friends who were interviewed said that Cindy called KC constantly wanting her home to take care of the baby, etc.

There also was never any indication that she was giving the child otc medication. If it cannot be proved, it is really moot. IMO.

 

[countzero]

Solace, I understand what you are saying. I said "move" you said CA said "kicked". Thats splitting hairs. :innocent: I believe the State depo with Linda holds more than the interviews with LE as they will be used in the trial. However, I am of the belief CA did not anything negative about ICA to the counselor other than it was a financial strain on her to keep supporting in CAs fashion, ICA and Caylee. CAs personality would not allow her to disclose negative info to a counselor (stranger, connected to work). Ryan, well he was a family friend and CA had no problems with talking negative about ICA when the situation suited her. Kinda/sorta like when you have a co worker who is a pain in the rear. You bad mouth them to others, but not to your boss.

Again, until LE or the SAOs office has confirmed this session happened as CA testified to in the depo, CA is still a horrible storyteller. Let us not forget, CA told LE she, GA and ICA had legal papers drawn and when LE contacted the attorney mentioned, he said it never happened. This is also in discovery.

 

[LambChop]

But since CA lies, fabricates to suit herself image, elaborates, embellishes, makes up stories to get other's in trouble and is just not credible about much of anything, what can we truly believe that comes out of this woman's mouth. She says this, but meant that. She lies but it's only a mistruth and not against the law. CA has a much credibility right now as her own daughter. They are truly alike with one exception. One of them likes to kill. jmo

 

[LCoastMom]

With all due respect, it is not incorrect. She has stated to detectives and others that she sought the counselor and spoke about KC and was told to kick KC out. She does not say that she thought KC was a bad mother to the detectives, but she does say the counselor told her to kick KC out. Why would the counselor tell Cindy to do that and seek custody? Probably because she was unfit to be the caretaker of Caylee. Cindy was honest with the counselor about KC and that was the advice she received. For a counselor to tell Cindy to kick her own daughter out of her house and seek custody of the grandchild, the situation presented must have been dire in the counselor's mind.

Cindy often contradicts herself in speaking to authorities - she forgets what she said in the past. A perfect example is just this and also the 911 call where she says the car smelled like there was a dead body in it. Cindy lies constantly to the FBI.

Cindy had also told Ryan Paisely she believed KC was a sociopath - this was BEFORE KC took Caylee away. This is very important because Cindy and George and Lee have the highest regard for Ryan or did even with speaking to the FBI.

She told Brittany, a neighbor and friend of KC's that KC was stealing when she was supposedly away with Caylee. George in on record saying if we had gotten custody, this would not have happened.

Several of her friends who were interviewed said that Cindy called KC constantly wanting her home to take care of the baby, etc.

There also was never any indication that she was giving the child otc medication. If it cannot be proved, it is really moot. IMO.

BBM Look at the contradictions in this post....

I no longer believe anything we hear/have heard from CA - and due to patient confidentiality we will probably not hear what CA said to the therapist! IIRC 'the therapist said to throw KC out' can be attributed to one of CA's coworkers - not CA. GA, I believe, did mention something along those lines to LE, early on...

"Cindy called KC constantly, wanting her home to take care of the baby" was KC's story to her friends. Read Annie's depo for some light on the reason CA called KC!

If they thought she was a terrible mother, why would they call her to come home? Why did CA allow KC to disappear with Caylee and not panic that Caylee was in danger? CA thought ICA was punishing her by keeping Caylee away - of course she wondered who was watching Caylee but there was no panic - she even returned to work and said she wanted to give ICA a chance to explain herself - after picking up the Pontiac, knowing there had been a dead body in the damn car! (who does that? except someone in deep denial...)

No doubt the therapist read between the lines! but even if the A's had gotten custody (which in FL was doubtful) it doesn't mean they would not have allowed ICA unsupervised visitation - so who knows? It's all hindsight and could drive the A's nuts wondering what might have been. And since they either don't believe ICA is guilty and/or believe Caylee is still alive - they have yet to come to grips with the monster who was living in the next room.

I believe a couple of CA's friends had some knowledge of ICA doping Caylee with OTC meds - RM was one.

 

[ynotdivein]

*snipped*

Reading now that the control referenced in making that statement was, "Typical concentrations seen during human decompositional events of adults yields amounts in the low parts per trillion range."

So...be careful here...:nono:...the control isn't a HDE in an enclosed trunk - that would tend to increase concentration levels - as compared to an HDE control in an unenclosed area.

Good caveat, BJB. Also noted that even the positive control sample from the blanket that Baby ManyWhiteHorses was wrapped in while he was in a car trunk for three months is not an exact comparison, since his body was in a less-oxygen-deprived environment than Caylee, who appears to have been tightly wrapped in at least one black garbage bag. Chloroform was not detected in the ManyWhiteHorses sample.

"A quantitation of chloroform was attempted, but the chloroform seen in the Florida carpet sample was much greater than the purchased standard." [my note--they mean purchased from Sigma-Aldritch, which "produces and sells a broad range of biochemicals, organic and inorganic chemicals and related products"] "Increasing the standard concentration would have... overwhelmed the signal. Looking at the integrated areas under the peaks, the control carpet had approximately 10,270 area counts and the Florida trunk sample had approximately 386,200,000 area counts. 10mg of injected standard yielded an area count of approximately 8,240,000 indicating that the Florida trunk sample had an amount of chloroform present which was in the low parts per million range. Typical concentrations seen during human decompositional events of adults yields amounts in the low parts per trillion range." (Document 6555, PDF page 5)

AND

"A positive control sample was also obtained and analyzed for human decomposition products. A 4 x 4 inch section of blanket was sent to us by Dr. Walter L. Kemp, Deputy State Medical Examiner, Forensic Science Division, Department of Justice, State of Montana, autopsy case 08-09-12. In this forensic case, the decedent (last name ManyWhiteHorses - a three year old child) was wrapped in a blanket and decomposed in the trunk of a car for approximately three months. (...) Chloroform was not detected in the blanket sample." (Bolded by me; document 6554, PDF page 4 of FBI Decomposition Report)

 

[LCoastMom]

Hey Solace. Not a scientist by any stretch of the imagination, but I am with you on this--if KC had been using chloroform on Caylee, wouldn't the odor have been detectable afterwards?

One early theory was that KC used Benadryl or another OTC to knock Caylee out, and that the chloroform signature resulted from some combination of human decomp chemicals plus some cleaning agent KC or another used in the trunk. Having read back through this and other related threads, I just dunno... but JWG's post above does indicate that if chloroform was present, it was likely NOT an accidental by-product of mixing cleaning agents and smell-reducers (such as acetone) in the trunk.

IJDK. :waitasec: Between this, the gas can thread, the work on the duct tape thread and more, it feels like we have all the pieces in our hands--it's frustrating not to be able to put it all together yet.

My problem with ICA using chloroform on Caylee, prior to one time in June 2008 (or possibly at all) - it was not found in her hair - right? (aside from the comment made by Baden on NG)

It only works for a few minutes at a time, to dose Caylee - then go party, she would have had to hook up something to dispense the gas! in liquid form it evaporates very fast!

If she poured the liquid on a rag and left it on Caylee's face - it would have most likely been the murder weapon. If this was the COD - did ICA use the tape to cover chemical burns on Caylee's face? thinking if she was found soon, LE would believe the tape could be responsible for the damage? but then why use 3 pieces of tape wrapped around her head? :waitasec:

I'm with you, the chloroform in the car is no accident... but something is missing! Had ICA dosed Caylee and left her in the trunk, the heat would have killed her or the chloroform could have or the tape could have...

We have a lot of over kill here! If she murdered her in the A's house, why is the chloroform in the trunk? Unless it was used as a cleaning agent, then where did ICA or someone get there hands on it?

I have a question for all and if it were already answered, I apologize.

It is believed KC made her own chloroform and used it periodically on Caylee to put her to sleep.

It is made from chlorine and acetone. DON'T THESE GIVE OFF AN ODOR?

If KC WERE USING this on Caylee, wouldn't Cindy have smelled it over some period of time. Even if she asked about it and was given an excuse, I am sure it was used again and Cindy had to be wondering why this odor on Caylee?

Any answers. Appreciated. Thanks.

Didn't an earlier report from the FBI say the chloroform was not a bi-product of chemicals mixed for whatever reason? It was too pure to have been homemade... (or am I remembering a result found other than in the trunk, maybe with the remains?) But, it is not expensive and can be purchased on line.

I do not believe it was used over and over - the odor is sweet, no idea how long it lasts after the gas dissipates or the liquid evaporates - but yes if ICA were using it in her room or Caylee's room and her parents walked by, they should have been able to smell it. Doesn't mean they would necessarily know what they were smelling!

If ICA got her hands on some chloroform, someplace other than on line, where? It isn't something most peeps have lying around the house! (it's been illegal to possess since the 1970's IIRC and although it appears some of ICA's friends may have dappled in some recreational drug use - they seemed to prefer those purchased with a prescription or "herbs", this is a whole 'nother level that you don't usually find young college students involved in. IMOO )

 

[ynotdivein]

Just ran across this interesting information on Google Answers...

And if anyone wants a giggle, Google for a YouTube entitled "The Effects of Chloroform When It's Made the Wrong Way." You'll know you've found the right one when the poster's screen name makes you go HMMMM.....

(WARNING: If you are enjoying a beverage, please cover your keyboard & screen before watching "The Effects of Chloroform When..." Ynot cannot be held responsible for any electronic damages caused by the viewing of this vid. On a related note, Ynot strongly recommends that all WSers purchase a waterproof, dishwasher-safe keyboard, especially WSers who share a domicile with young children, nosy felines, and/or well-intentioned but clumsy significant others.)

 

[LCoastMom]

Just ran across this interesting information on Google Answers...

And if anyone wants a giggle, Google for a YouTube entitled "The Effects of Chloroform When It's Made the Wrong Way." You'll know you've found the right one when the poster's screen name makes you go HMMMM.....

(WARNING: If you are enjoying a beverage, please cover your keyboard & screen before watching "The Effects of Chloroform When..." Ynot cannot be held responsible for any electronic damages caused by the viewing of this vid. On a related note, Ynot strongly recommends that all WSers purchase a waterproof, dishwasher-safe keyboard, especially WSers who share a domicile with young children, nosy felines, and/or well-intentioned but clumsy significant others.)

You know what they say, the devil is in the details!! PsychoDA forgot the most important ingredient while mixing this highly volatile compound - the ICE!!

Good idea putting that disclaimer on the message, but if you would be so kind - where does one find a waterproof, dishwasher-safe keyboard? One that will survive DD's nosy feline, who not only thinks the computer mouse belongs to her, but also tries to save me from moving cursers by dumping red fruit punch on the keyboard! (laptop number 3, in the first 15ish months of the "Anthony's Under the Big Top")!

 

[ynotdivein]

You know what they say, the devil is in the details!! PsychoDA forgot the most important ingredient while mixing this highly volatile compound - the ICE!!

Good idea putting that disclaimer on the message, but if you would be so kind - where does one find a waterproof, dishwasher-safe keyboard? One that will survive DD's nosy feline, who not only thinks the computer mouse belongs to her, but also tries to save me from moving cursers by dumping red fruit punch on the keyboard! (laptop number 3, in the first 15ish months of the "Anthony's Under the Big Top")!

They's not cheap, but they work. I got mine online because none of the stores around me stocked them: Washable Keyboard

I do hope this helps--and trust me, it is worth the investment!

ETA--I just checked the link above and it is NOT what I had hoped. But if you google "dishwasher safe keyboard" you will come to the right place no doubt. Mine was about $70 and came to me within a week. So far it's survived three incidents that would have been otherwise catastrophic. Haven't put it in the dishwasher yet but all evidence indicates that it is really and truly waterproof!

 

[OneLostGrl]

They's not cheap, but they work. I got mine online because none of the stores around me stocked them: Washable Keyboard

I do hope this helps--and trust me, it is worth the investment!

ETA--I just checked the link above and it is NOT what I had hoped. But if you google "dishwasher safe keyboard" you will come to the right place no doubt. Mine was about $70 and came to me within a week. So far it's survived three incidents that would have been otherwise catastrophic. Haven't put it in the dishwasher yet but all evidence indicates that it is really and truly waterproof!

WOW- I never knew they made those! Amazing.. im'a get me one of those!

 

[LCoastMom]

They's not cheap, but they work. I got mine online because none of the stores around me stocked them: Washable Keyboard

I do hope this helps--and trust me, it is worth the investment!

ETA--I just checked the link above and it is NOT what I had hoped. But if you google "dishwasher safe keyboard" you will come to the right place no doubt. Mine was about $70 and came to me within a week. So far it's survived three incidents that would have been otherwise catastrophic. Haven't put it in the dishwasher yet but all evidence indicates that it is really and truly waterproof!

Holy-Moly, I thought you were kidding! That is just too cool! (Seriously have never heard of such a thing!) Thanks for sharing!

The photos from the Googled Site show keyboards and mice completely submerged!! They should sell those at Babies R Us and PetSmart!! ($70 is less than I paid for the extended warranty!! That would be totally worth it!!)

This "Seal Shield" offers protection from mold, mildew, and odor causing bacteria - in addition to being water tight! The keyboards range from $30 and up! Amazing!

 

[claudicici]

"--More likely effects of inhaling chloroform are dizziness, nausea,
disorientation, headache and possible drunken-like behavior.
Longer-term exposure can lead to hallucinations and psychotic
episodes." snipped from the Google answers link....
ohoh,....is that a possible defense? R used chloroform on ICA long term which caused psychotic episodes?

 

[Solace]

Solace, I understand what you are saying. I said "move" you said CA said "kicked". Thats splitting hairs. :innocent: I believe the State depo with Linda holds more than the interviews with LE as they will be used in the trial. However, I am of the belief CA did not anything negative about ICA to the counselor other than it was a financial strain on her to keep supporting in CAs fashion, ICA and Caylee. CAs personality would not allow her to disclose negative info to a counselor (stranger, connected to work). Ryan, well he was a family friend and CA had no problems with talking negative about ICA when the situation suited her. Kinda/sorta like when you have a co worker who is a pain in the rear. You bad mouth them to others, but not to your boss.

Again, until LE or the SAOs office has confirmed this session happened as CA testified to in the depo, CA is still a horrible storyteller. Let us not forget, CA told LE she, GA and ICA had legal papers drawn and when LE contacted the attorney mentioned, he said it never happened. This is also in discovery.

I hear ya. But for a counselor to advise someone to kick her daughter out of the house, something very negative had to be said about the daughter and her lifestyle. I cannot see a counselor advising kicking a daughter out of the house simply because she had some problems. At this point in time, KC was staying out some five nights a week at Ricardo's house. This had to be alarming for Cindy. Also, KC was stealing money.

A counselor is NOT going to advise going for custody unless there was a reason to back it up. It is her reputation here. Cindy had to have said she was worried about Caylee in some way. Just mo Have a good one.

 

[whiteangora]

I hear ya. But for a counselor to advise someone to kick her daughter out of the house, something very negative had to be said about the daughter and her lifestyle. I cannot see a counselor advising kicking a daughter out of the house simply because she had some problems. At this point in time, KC was staying out some five nights a week at Ricardo's house. This had to be alarming for Cindy. Also, KC was stealing money.

A counselor is NOT going to advise going for custody unless there was a reason to back it up. It is her reputation here. Cindy had to have said she was worried about Caylee in some way. Just mo Have a good one.

Since this is all just Cindy's version of what took place and what was said with the counselor I can't take it seriously. I would have to hear it from the source and I doubt that is going to happen.

 

[LambChop]

Since this is all just Cindy's version of what took place and what was said with the counselor I can't take it seriously. I would have to hear it from the source and I doubt that is going to happen.

I have visions of the counselor saying to herself, "Somehow I don't remember the conversation going that way?" jmo

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

It would surprise me if a counselor would advise such drastic measures on a first visit. It seems like there should be a little fact checking done by the advisor before handing out radical advice like that. It could be true, I guess ~ as there are probably pretty poor counselors trying to make a living, too.

But on the first visit?

 

[Star12]

Holy-Moly, I thought you were kidding! That is just too cool! (Seriously have never heard of such a thing!) Thanks for sharing!

The photos from the Googled Site show keyboards and mice completely submerged!! They should sell those at Babies R Us and PetSmart!! ($70 is less than I paid for the extended warranty!! That would be totally worth it!!)

This "Seal Shield" offers protection from mold, mildew, and odor causing bacteria - in addition to being water tight! The keyboards range from $30 and up! Amazing!

I watched a lady at sbx pour an entire cup of coffee on her laptop keyboard - fortunately she had a keyboard protector. I have been in abject horror of doing the same thing (I can be such a klutz sometimes).

Back on topic: R used chloroform on ICA long term which caused psychotic episodes? BBM from Claudicici -

Somehow I do not think that KC would have needed to be chloroformed. I do not think that crowd used the chemical - it's one of those things in common knowledge, but not really acted on, imo.