2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner

[AZlawyer]

OK, I tried to upload this photo to my "Personal Webspace" on Cox but as usual it is not working :banghead: so hopefully it will come through OK as an attachment.

Inspired by Eidetic, I was trying to play with the spare tire cover photo to see if the stains shown in the LE "alternative light source" photos would show up. After just a couple of changes (increase saturation was the main one), those stains did "pop out" pretty obviously (bright blue in the attached photo).

But then I noticed another stain had "popped out"--a very dark one at the top of the spare tire cover, in the same basic area where we know something must have leaked through, based on the stain on the photos of the back of the spare tire cover. There is some of this dark color on other parts of the spare tire cover, but the top area is most obvious.

So, if these stains show up as two different colors after making the same changes to the photo, are they two different types of stains. One decomp fluid and one... ??? Chloroform?? Cleaning solution??

 

[JWG]

FWIW, rereading the Oak Ridge FINAL report on the trunk odor yesterday, I was left with the distinct impression that the chloroform component of the odor overwhelmed all other compounds - by orders of magnitude. In other words, the chloroform was not the by-product of a chemical reaction of decomposition fluid with pool water or a mixture of cleaning solutions. It was the real deal. And there was lots of it.

OK, I tried to upload this photo to my "Personal Webspace" on Cox but as usual it is not working :banghead: so hopefully it will come through OK as an attachment.

Inspired by Eidetic, I was trying to play with the spare tire cover photo to see if the stains shown in the LE "alternative light source" photos would show up. After just a couple of changes (increase saturation was the main one), those stains did "pop out" pretty obviously (bright blue in the attached photo).

But then I noticed another stain had "popped out"--a very dark one at the top of the spare tire cover, in the same basic area where we know something must have leaked through, based on the stain on the photos of the back of the spare tire cover. There is some of this dark color on other parts of the spare tire cover, but the top area is most obvious.

So, if these stains show up as two different colors after making the same changes to the photo, are they two different types of stains. One decomp fluid and one... ??? Chloroform?? Cleaning solution??

 

[Nore]

Yes-During my ultrasound when I was pregnant with my daughter, she stuck her foot against my belly and gave us a perfect footprint on the screen. It looks just like that.

--------------------------
Just Jayla,I saw my grt.grandsons foot too!huge! He weighed 9lbs.Sorry O/T.Did everyone see the Red heart at the bottom of pic's 39,40,41? I just gasped! Maybe an illusion but a weird one. :angel: It does look like a foot.

 

[Nore]

FWIW, rereading the Oak Ridge FINAL report on the trunk odor yesterday, I was left with the distinct impression that the chloroform component of the odor overwhelmed all other compounds - by orders of magnitude. In other words, the chloroform was not the by-product of a chemical reaction of decomposition fluid with pool water or a mixture of cleaning solutions. It was the real deal. And there was lots of it.

JWG, I read that also. At one point they said it was a larger amount than one would get from Decomp..

 

[Harmony 2]

JWG, I read that also. At one point they said it was a larger amount than one would get from Decomp..

Yes, here is the statement:

page 16 of LIBS report

 

[ynotdivein]

OK, I tried to upload this photo to my "Personal Webspace" on Cox but as usual it is not working :banghead: so hopefully it will come through OK as an attachment.

Inspired by Eidetic, I was trying to play with the spare tire cover photo to see if the stains shown in the LE "alternative light source" photos would show up. After just a couple of changes (increase saturation was the main one), those stains did "pop out" pretty obviously (bright blue in the attached photo).

But then I noticed another stain had "popped out"--a very dark one at the top of the spare tire cover, in the same basic area where we know something must have leaked through, based on the stain on the photos of the back of the spare tire cover. There is some of this dark color on other parts of the spare tire cover, but the top area is most obvious.

So, if these stains show up as two different colors after making the same changes to the photo, are they two different types of stains. One decomp fluid and one... ??? Chloroform?? Cleaning solution??

Is there any way that we can tell whether either of the circular stains (top or bottom of liner) could relate to something 17 inches in diameter being placed on top of the trunk liner, toward back of trunk, partially over spare tire well?

I agree. It looks like somebody may have tried to clean one side. But the stain seeped down into the backing.

Anyone? My trunk is similar to but not exactly like KC's Sunfire (the round part of my spare cover is--well WAS--in a different spot as I remember it, for example). Am ready to go to a used car lot tomorrow with a tape measure and some of these printouts, dangit!

 

[Harmony 2]

pg 3 LIBS

pg 12 LIBS

Is it possible that the big stain is where the scrapings came from and where the butyric acid was obtained from?? Or was it another spot on the carpet? Reading over the LIBS report the location of the scrapings is not mentioned.

 

[ynotdivein]

Yes, I have imagined and not only have I imagined. GA and the Tow yard guy smelled it for themselves as did the investigating officers the odor was still so overpowering. Everyone states the wheel well is only 6 inches deep, has anyone measured the width of an almost 3 year old? I'm 44 years old and in some places I'm not 6 inches thick, so an almost 3 year old is not 6 inches thick, think about it.

Truth, IMO Caylee was long gone from the trunk when CA/GA picked it up from the tow yard in July. She was long gone from the trunk when KC dumped the car at Amscot in June. (Go KC. Anytime something's a problem, just find an inconspicuous spot and leave it there. Party on, girl. :furious

But I also think there were fluids from Caylee's body still in the trunk of the car when KC left the car at Amscot, and while KC might have thought she could just wipe them up and magically disappear her little problem, those fluids did not disappear. They caused a smell, and then a stench, and perhaps some stains, that tell us a great deal about what happened to that baby and when.

I really don't think Caylee was ever in the spare tire well. My car has been sans trunk liner for years (for reasons not to be divulged here) and due to some frame bendage, any good rain causes a pool to form in my spare tire well, in a 97 Chevy similar to KC's Pontiac build. I've had white trash bags back there for weeks that never picked up a rust stain like what we see on the bag from the tow yard. Rust doesn't seem to adhere to plastic in the way that a fat-based substance would... IMO IMO IMO

OK I have outed myself as a car-slob. And mom always told me nothing good would come of not keeping my car clean! :crazy:

Much appreciation to all for what has been not only a very thought-provoking but also a very civil thread! :woohoo:

 

[believe09]

Popping in again to remind everyone of the dryer sheets placed all over the car...clearly the stench continued to be overwhelming even after she dumped Caylee.

 

[baxtermaster]

How many dryer sheets were there and were they used or new?:waitasec:

 

[believe09]

How many dryer sheets were there and were they used or new?:waitasec:

I am trying to find a link for you in the doc dumps themselves-I found many links all over the internet with discussion on the dryer sheets...IIRC there was one on the front passenger floor board, some in the back seat, spread out and at least one in the trunk. I remember when we were first trying to figure out the source of the cloroform in the trunk, we did some checking into the idea that dryer sheets might give off cloroform..BRB

 

[cloud9]

Hi all!

It's just about impossible to believe that Caylee's body could fit in the shallow wheel well. But there is one thing that keeps bothering me about that. I hate to type this but, considering the intense heat, Caylee would have decomposed very quickly. Towards the end of the process she could have easily fit in that wheel well. I'm thinking that maybe she was in the trunk initially, then moved to the wheel well until she was dumped by KC in the woods. The odor was bad enough, but until she could remove her permanantly, and at advanced stage of decomposition, KC was afraid of someone seeing Caylee in the trunk, and she was finally able to put her in the wheel well (due to much decreased size) until she managed to remove her. Just thinking...

 

[LambChop]

Hi all!

It's just about impossible to believe that Caylee's body could fit in the shallow wheel well. But there is one thing that keeps bothering me about that. I hate to type this but, considering the intense heat, Caylee would have decomposed very quickly. Towards the end of the process she could have easily fit in that wheel well. I'm thinking that maybe she was in the trunk initially, then moved to the wheel well until she was dumped by KC in the woods. The odor was bad enough, but until she could remove her permanantly, and at advanced stage of decomposition, KC was afraid of someone seeing Caylee in the trunk, and she was finally able to put her in the wheel well (due to much decreased size) until she managed to remove her. Just thinking...

Not quite. The body fills up with gases so it would not decrease in size. Then it breaks down into fluids. It would have been all over the trunk. Plus KC's car would have been swarming with flies. Hundreds of them. No way she could have had the body for any period of time. JMO

 

[MaraSleuth]

I agree with lambchop - I don't think the body was in the trunk for a very long time. Enough to give off the decomp smell. We were hauling garbage out this summer when the city workers went on strike. I hauled 3 bags of garbage out to the dump (20 minute drive) and one bag had leaked. The trunk stunk really bad, even when I cleaned the wheel well cover and the rest of the trunk. A smell lingered for months - it was still there when we sold our car 3 months later in October.

IMO, the stains are from cleaning up whatever was in the car.

 

[Truthwillsetufree]

Not quite. The body fills up with gases so it would not decrease in size. Then it breaks down into fluids. It would have been all over the trunk. Plus KC's car would have been swarming with flies. Hundreds of them. No way she could have had the body for any period of time. JMO

Not neccessarily if the body was not exposed to the elements. ie: Placed in the plastic garbage bags right away and placed in a somewhat limited air space compartment like a trunk.

 

[LambChop]

Not neccessarily if the body was not exposed to the elements. ie: Placed in the plastic garbage bags right away and placed in a somewhat limited air space compartment like a trunk.

I respectfully disagree. Having read up on this on the decomp. thread and the Body Farm, the trunk could have been up to 120 degrees and the body in black bags.....black absorbs heat....would increase the decomposition process that much faster. A slow cooker. Garbage bags do not stop leakage. I could go further but a trip to the thread with the decomposition information can explain it better than I can, plus the pictures are quite graphic leaving no doubt in your mind what happens to a body. I'll see if I can find it. JMO

It is located on this thread: Dead Folks and Decomp *WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTOS*#2

 

[Eidetic]

Not neccessarily if the body was not exposed to the elements. ie: Placed in the plastic garbage bags right away and placed in a somewhat limited air space compartment like a trunk.

Or a shallow grave likely in a shady spot.

 

[Eidetic]

Not quite. The body fills up with gases so it would not decrease in size. Then it breaks down into fluids. It would have been all over the trunk. Plus KC's car would have been swarming with flies. Hundreds of them. No way she could have had the body for any period of time. JMO

In my opinion Caylee's body was in that car no longer than it took to transport it (however many times that may have been...).

 

[cloud9]

Not quite. The body fills up with gases so it would not decrease in size. Then it breaks down into fluids. It would have been all over the trunk. Plus KC's car would have been swarming with flies. Hundreds of them. No way she could have had the body for any period of time. JMO

Thanks

Yes, I do believe Caylee was in that car no longer than 2.6 days. After a body fills up, then breaks down with gases isn't it sort of flat, for lack of a better word. Can a body, in intense heat, go through this whole process in a day or two? I should know the answer, but I can't remember. As far as the flies, you are correct that the car would be swarming with flies. I think I just need to go back and read the timeline better, as far as when the car was left at Amscott, etc. Thanks again.

 

[LambChop]

Thanks

Yes, I do believe Caylee was in that car no longer than 2.6 days. After a body fills up, then breaks down with gases isn't it sort of flat, for lack of a better word. Can a body, in intense heat, go through this whole process in a day or two? I should know the answer, but I can't remember. As far as the flies, you are correct that the car would be swarming with flies. I think I just need to go back and read the timeline better, as far as when the car was left at Amscott, etc. Thanks again.

If you go to the Dead Folks and Decomp thread it pretty much spells everything out as far as the stages the body goes through. I don't think it ever goes through a flat stage except maybe once the body starts to come apart. The thread is not for someone with a weak stomach. JMO