2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner

[Tiki]

She must have been somewhat smaller, right? in order to fit in the laundry bag?

 

[LambChop]

The laundry bag is 17 inches across. A 3 year old's shoulders would have been about 12 to 15 inches. So with garbage bags, she was it there pretty tight. JMO

 

[ZsaZsa]

Thanks

Yes, I do believe Caylee was in that car no longer than 2.6 days. After a body fills up, then breaks down with gases isn't it sort of flat, for lack of a better word. Can a body, in intense heat, go through this whole process in a day or two? I should know the answer, but I can't remember. As far as the flies, you are correct that the car would be swarming with flies. I think I just need to go back and read the timeline better, as far as when the car was left at Amscott, etc. Thanks again.

Even in your nightmares/wildest dreams can you picture driving around in the Florida heat with your child decomposing and flies swarming around her.
No wonder Casey couldn't sleep at night...

 

[Tiki]

The laundry bag is 17 inches across. A 3 year old's shoulders would have been about 12 to 15 inches. So with garbage bags, she was it there pretty tight. JMO

Thanks, LambChop - I see it was only 25" high, too, but her little knees were probably bent - so, yeah - pretty tight. I think she must have put her in there early on - I don't she her forcing a squishy, leaking garbage bag into that size laundry bag. Poor little baby.

JMO

 

[marspiter]

Garbage bags can stretch pretty good too. In college I used to use them to move back and forth from college to home and back. It's actually amazing how much junk you can cram in a garbage bag. Especially if it's softer items with out hard or pointed edges. For example you can packs pounds and pounds of clothes into a garbage bag but a couple of card board boxes can break it do to the edges. The laundry bag is also going to have a little give too. Not like the garbage bag mind you as the plastic will stretch better then canvas, but the dimensions of the bags are not going to be "static" like the dimensions of the spare tire well.

Here is a link on trash bag strength.
http://www.selah.k12.wa.us/soar/SciProj2003/carmenl_data.pdf

This is a link to a 6th grade science fair project but the data collection is actually the best scientific data I was able to find on the net in terms of trash bag strength giving actual numerical data such as psi and "stretch" percentage.

 

[fibelmail]

Do the images on pics 3 & 4 look like a precious Caylee foot to anyone else?

Long time lurker... I did not see this elsewhere, but does anyone else see part of a face in these pictures. To me it looks like the right hand dide of the forehead and bridge of nose pressed sideways. The indenture looks like the position of an eye and part of a cheek. Mybe I am reading to much into the picture, but its haunting to say the least.

 

[KenoshaKid]

Long time lurker... I did not see this elsewhere, but does anyone else see part of a face in these pictures. To me it looks like the right hand dide of the forehead and bridge of nose pressed sideways. The indenture looks like the position of an eye and part of a cheek. Mybe I am reading to much into the picture, but its haunting to say the least.

No, but at about 2:00 from the large green stain you can see a face with the mouth open and a hand on the chin. (I am sure this is not what it is, but it's freaky nonetheless)

 

[seagull65]

I'm convinced Caylee was in the trunk of the Sunfire but I'm still unsure of her being in the spare tire space. Looking at this pic I wonder if the spare tire space was deep enough to hold her little body...she was almost 3 and that space holds a little doughnut tire...is the space big enough? Also, how would the fluid get on the underside of the spare tire covering if Caylee was beneath it? Seems to me that if she would have been in that space the fluid would have pooled in the bottom of the space in the trunk, maybe even drained out from under the car.

Also, I believe the white splotches and outlines are from bleach used to clean the trunk.
Caylee's car seat strap could have been pushed down in into the Sunfire's seat causing it to be in the trunk area where it might have been splashed with the cleaner.

Most concerning for me is Caylee's carseat...I've manipulated the images, adjusting saturation, tent, and contrast and it just looks like something happened while Caylee was in that carseat..did KC beat her or stab her...or both? Did she tape her up first to keep her quite while she was on her cell phone? Did she beat her with the phone? O so many questions and so few answers. I can't wait for the trial when the SA will put all the missing pieces together for us.

I also think for the stains to get on the bottom of the spare tire cover they would most likely have had to come from above. Kids can fit into amazingly small spaces though. My 7 year old shocked me by curling up in a pretty small suitcase recently when I was trying to pack, I was like, how can you fit in there? So I think an almost 3 year old maybe could be fit into the wheel well, I'm not sure, but stuff runs down, not up. Although osmosis or some process going upward is an interesting thought.
I also worry that something may have happened to her while she was in her carseat. Casey or someone else, either driver or passenger, could have beaten Caylee or otherwise wounded her, either fatally, or maybe just caused an injury bad enough she/he/they did not want to face the Anthonys or authorities and answer for it.
Or, the thought also crossed my mind, what if Caylee got hold of that knife without Casey knowing and had it in her mouth or something, and wound up fatally injured by the knife, or something along those lines, or otherwise was killed due to some sort of negligence, in which case a normal person would have called 911 immediately but maybe Casey or someone else might not? Probably not, just a thought. But anyway I do get the feeling that something may have happened in her carseat. The directional motion of that one rusty looking stain on one of the chest strap pads of the carseat made me worry about there maybe being a blow to the face area... JMO though, only guessing at this stage.

 

[seagull65]

http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/22578565/detail.html

I'm still a little confused about the location and scale of the stains in the trunk, when I look at the pictures I see lots of rusty areas and lots of areas flourescing but when they're in close up it's hard for me to be sure which areas of the liner and other pieces these closeups are of and how close up the shot is. I still don't see the fetal position outline, try as I might. Where is it supposed to be? I did see one stain that looked so much like button imprints or vertebrae with shoulder blades. Can someone help me understand where that stain was positioned in the trunk? (Photo 29). Also were those fingerprints in photos 8 and 9? That does look like a footprint in picture 3.

that would be great if there are fingerprints

 

[seagull65]

Thank you for clarifying... he asked for a wedge. Hmm...when she did finally open the trunk for him then...the question should immediately have been...."what is he77 is that smell?"

Am wondering if there is some truth in her "half-truths" and she may have had a flat tire along the way....and its possible that someone could have helped her change it? Is it possible that in the process of changing the flat, i.e. having to get to the spare tire, unscrew the spare tire holder and lift up the cover board - the bag with the body was moved..... fluids escaped staining both the carpet and underneath the coverboard? This would mean that someone possibly helped her change the flat....and knows about the body but is not saying anything. :furious: On the other hand.. the stains could be from the body being in the car for days and the fluids leaking out staining both the carpet and the coverboard which may be porous.

I know! Regarding "what the he77 is that smell?!". Both GA and TL claimed not to have noticed any suspicious smell when they were right by the trunk, it always puzzled me. Not to mention the friends and roommates at the apartment complex, no one smelled the smell of the car. So weird.

 

[seagull65]

Caylee could have been placed in the spare wheel well prior to rigor mortis, her little body could have been manipulated any way in the confines of the bags. I also believe that the rust color on the ouutside of the bag is from rust on the inside of the spare tire well. JMO.

wow it was rusty in there, that's true. I never thought of that all this time. I had always wondered if any of the coloration on the laundry bag could have been from tannins in the tree roots or even from the water in that area (I don't know about Orlando, in Tampa seems like our water did cause rusty stains on driveways and walls and stuff.)

edited to add:
Oh, sorry! The rusty pics were those pictures of the other Sunfire that were posted early on? OK!!! Sorry, I hadn't caught up.
Also, in catching up I saw about the well only being 6" deep. OK, that is shallower than I realized. Shoulder width doesn't matter that much to me as far as fitting into the tire well, because shoulders can skew this way or that but just the head and so on....only 6 inches deep? OK. Very shallow. How wide is a head? Well, maybe she could fit in just enough for whatever short period she was kept there, if she was. Though the staining makes me think she was probably above the well. I was just wondering, could she have been in the trunk (not down in the tire well) but under the liner? Would the trunk close or would the liner stick up too much, how flexible is it? Though I guess she was probably on top of the liner, some of the enhanced pictures do look like a lot of staining.

Can someone point me to the fetal position outline you guys, I've still never seen it all this time.
I've seen a couple of little faces (too small to be Caylee's though, just imaginary ones.) That little one in the carseat looks like a little miniature image of Casey's face. Weird. I wondered for a second if it was an imprint from the doll, like if it had been behind Caylee in the carseat somehow, but that wouldn't make much sense. Just trying to figure it out.

 

[seagull65]

.....As far as the carseat goes, does anyone remember the deposition from CA. When the SA was asking her about the carseat and Caylee's teeth. Did anyone see if CSI found one of Caylee's teeth in the car seat or the rear seat where Caylee's carseat sits?? I don't remember seeing any results from that or on that.
JMHO

Justice for Caylee

I want to say that in CA's deposition for the State that there was a photo of two lists that were turned over to JB. One of the lists which would have DNA items from both KC and Caylee (mostly Caylee), I believe, had a tooth listed. Now KC is alive. All they needed to do was swab KC's cheek as she was out on bond, sooooooo....did the tooth belong to Caylee. Caylee is way too little to have lost a tooth this early unless a dentist removed it for some reason.

Have to see if I can find it.

Edit to add CA depo part II:

At the back of the depo is Exhibit 22, second page: CA in her depo identifies it as CA's writing and JB tells CA to "zip it". I blew the page up to 400% and a tooth is listed under bib. Other things on the list are pacifier and straw. This looks like a list for Caylee to identify DNA for defense. Why would KC have a tooth?????

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21310288/detail.html

There's more discussion and links regarding the "missing tooth" issue at this link, about half way down the page.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90599&highlight=Caylee's+teeth&page=3

 

[notthatsmart]

I know I am a little sloppy, but here it goes:

Things I have spilled in my trunk over the years:

Antifreeze
Oil
Gasoline
Power steering fluid
Automatic transmission fluid
Windshield wiper fluid
Beer (lots)
Bondo
Fiberglass resin
GoJo
Water
Cleaning fluids like Windex and Armoral
Up north here, when you open your trunk, snow will fall off the rear window and into the trunk with plenty of road salt.
Kc wasn't the only one who owned that car over the years. Ga owned it and so did LA. It is possible there were lawn chemicals, pool chemicals, fertilizers, house hold cleaning chemicals like drano and toilet cleaners, diapers, messy wipes, insecticides.

My point is that over a 10 year period, many many things could have caused these stains. It is true, I have spilled many many things over the years. Not on purpose, but when I take off the stuff tips over. The fertilizer bags give out a big puff of dust when I throw them in the trunk. It just happens.

 

[Jolynna]

I know I am a little sloppy, but here it goes:

Things I have spilled in my trunk over the years:

Antifreeze
Oil
Gasoline
Power steering fluid
Automatic transmission fluid
Windshield wiper fluid
Beer (lots)
Bondo
Fiberglass resin
GoJo
Water
Cleaning fluids like Windex and Armoral
Up north here, when you open your trunk, snow will fall off the rear window and into the trunk with plenty of road salt.
Kc wasn't the only one who owned that car over the years. Ga owned it and so did LA. It is possible there were lawn chemicals, pool chemicals, fertilizers, house hold cleaning chemicals like drano and toilet cleaners, diapers, messy wipes, insecticides.

My point is that over a 10 year period, many many things could have caused these stains. It is true, I have spilled many many things over the years. Not on purpose, but when I take off the stuff tips over. The fertilizer bags give out a big puff of dust when I throw them in the trunk. It just happens.

Hopefully none of the things you've spilled in your trunk over the years causes your family and friends to wrinkle up their noses and say, 'Who died?" Cadaver dogs probably don't alert when they get near your car. Coffin flies don't escape whenever you lift your trunk lid and there aren't baby flies (maggots) feasting on goop on paper towels from the last time you cleaned. No child's hair is down in your wheel well. And none of your relative's bones are scattered within walking distance of your house.



Sure things happen, life is messy, but because of the accumulative facts, I am more than convinced that Caylee Anthony's decomposing body was in the Pontiac trunk. i don't see much wriggle room about whether or not Caylee was in that trunk. To me, it is a given.

 

[Just Jayla]

I know I am a little sloppy, but here it goes:

Things I have spilled in my trunk over the years:

Antifreeze
Oil
Gasoline
Power steering fluid
Automatic transmission fluid
Windshield wiper fluid
Beer (lots)
Bondo
Fiberglass resin
GoJo
Water
Cleaning fluids like Windex and Armoral
Up north here, when you open your trunk, snow will fall off the rear window and into the trunk with plenty of road salt.
Kc wasn't the only one who owned that car over the years. Ga owned it and so did LA. It is possible there were lawn chemicals, pool chemicals, fertilizers, house hold cleaning chemicals like drano and toilet cleaners, diapers, messy wipes, insecticides.

My point is that over a 10 year period, many many things could have caused these stains. It is true, I have spilled many many things over the years. Not on purpose, but when I take off the stuff tips over. The fertilizer bags give out a big puff of dust when I throw them in the trunk. It just happens.

I had to laugh at your post, my cars and trunks in the past have been a catastrophe-I used to sell commercial cleaning chemicals, so my trunk has probably been nearly explosive at some point with all the crap that splattered and spilled-
BUT! GA, who maintained that car religiously, said that stain was not there in the past. So, KC either had to spill something in that trunk within the time that she was gone in June & July, or GA was not being truthful about his maintenance and cleaning regimen.
GA also mentioned that he got close to the stain and it was bad, he implied that the smell he was smelling outside of the trunk was concentrated in that stain. He also implied he knew that was the smell of death.
I have never spilled anything in my trunk that smelled like decomposition. Trash, maybe, but not decomp.

 

[Pondering Mind]

I had to laugh at your post, my cars and trunks in the past have been a catastrophe-I used to sell commercial cleaning chemicals, so my trunk has probably been nearly explosive at some point with all the crap that splattered and spilled-
BUT! GA, who maintained that car religiously, said that stain was not there in the past. So, KC either had to spill something in that trunk within the time that she was gone in June & July, or GA was not being truthful about his maintenance and cleaning regimen.
GA also mentioned that he got close to the stain and it was bad, he implied that the smell he was smelling outside of the trunk was concentrated in that stain. He also implied he knew that was the smell of death.
I have never spilled anything in my trunk that smelled like decomposition. Trash, maybe, but not decomp.

I'm embarrassed to say that my trunk is atrocious at the moment. I don't know what all has spilled/leaked back there..it's just gunky..eww. It just has not been at the top of my priority list lately.:blushing: BUT, NO DECOMP or smell period in mine either, lol!

You're exactly right too..I had forgotten that George said that! I was thinking earlier that KC's trunk couldn't have been too bad the way he kept the cars up. You know he would notice anything out of the ordinary.

George was being totally honest that day when sat down with LE and told them about the stain and the smell. In detail.....How can he possibly backtrack that at trial?

 

[Ilenser]

I respectfully disagree. Having read up on this on the decomp. thread and the Body Farm, the trunk could have been up to 120 degrees and the body in black bags.....black absorbs heat....would increase the decomposition process that much faster. A slow cooker. Garbage bags do not stop leakage. I could go further but a trip to the thread with the decomposition information can explain it better than I can, plus the pictures are quite graphic leaving no doubt in your mind what happens to a body. I'll see if I can find it. JMO

It is located on this thread: Dead Folks and Decomp *WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTOS*#2

Sorry but the color of the bag would not make a differance. No light in the trunk.

 

[fibelmail]

I have never tried a link, but I am trying to show what I see and have the wonderful minds of WS tell me that this is not what I see (I really do not want to believe it)
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?c306a1b27a.jpg

 

[cloud9]

I have never tried a link, but I am trying to show what I see and have the wonderful minds of WS tell me that this is not what I see (I really do not want to believe it)
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?c306a1b27a.jpg

WOW! What the heck? The green is from the last photos released. I'm trying to understand what this means.
ETA~ It looks like the green outline matches Caylee's eye and nose. Imprint? Or...?

Thank you for posting this!

 

[Boots-OK]

But, wasn't the duct tape covering her nose and mouth? Or - could the images have been made through the tape? Heck - I don't know. Just wondering.