2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner

[AZlawyer]

How tall was Caylee and does that match what the drawings show?

The 27 inches or so that I count based on the latest theory/drawings seems to short to me...
That seems more like a one year old going on two, not 2 going on 3, imo.

Did I measure wrong or miss something?

Hi dsntslp--IIRC we went through some of this back around post #500 of this thread--look before and after that post; AZ and others did some good research on toddler heights and measurements of various limbs compared to the ruler LE included in their shots of the trunk. HTH!

Yes, the stain on the spare tire cover matches Caylee's height from neck to foot, as outlined by BJB on JWG's composite (and by wenwe more recently I believe)--so IMO the stain on the edge of the trunk liner (off the edge of the spare tire cover) is from her head.

 

[3doglady]

Good job!

Is the area to the left of the word head (or under the word?) what you are seeing - so possibly the white area to the left of her arm would be Caylee's neck?

Yes her head would be left of the word and the white line her neck.

 

[dsntslp]

Yes, the stain on the spare tire cover matches Caylee's height from neck to foot, as outlined by BJB on JWG's composite (and by wenwe more recently I believe)--so IMO the stain on the edge of the trunk liner (off the edge of the spare tire cover) is from her head.

Thanks.
Yes I think the measurements in JWG's outline add up, but not the outline done in post # 996 that shows her head at the left wheel well and feet toward the right wheel well. #996 shows what adds up to 27 inches approximately. Maybe I have misinterpreted the theory in #996?

 

[dsntslp]

One more try. Yeah! I learned to type labels. LOLView attachment 14350

Bump for comparison.

 

[dsntslp]

Oh I see, the bent knees in JWG's add more height, ok, I get' it now. I thought #996 was straight bodied. No worries. Thanks for the explanations, truly.

 

[3doglady]

One more try. Yeah! I learned to type labels. LOLView attachment 14350

More Kitties. Sorry to quote myself but after flipping and redrawing the picture what I thought was the head looks like the chest in JWG's picture.

 

[cloud9]

Yes, but AZ said that JWG's image was taken from the top of the carpet as pictured not the underside. Hope I got that right.

Oh! I'm sorry. I missed that. Thank you!

Back to square one for me.:waitasec:

 

[cloud9]

Photo 1 is the top of the carpet where the image picture is taken from, picture 2 shows the bottom side of the underliner (it is showing the side that faces the wheel underneath). If you turn #2 underliner over and slip it under the carpet in photo #1 the large stain would be on the left top side of the trunk as you stand at the back of the car looking into the trunk. I believe that is where her head was, possibly where the bags leaked as well. I think her body was lying on the left side of the trunk, head in first at top, feet at the opening of the trunk.
The plastic piece to the left of each picture designates topside or underside.

If the stain is from the bags leaking, I believe she went into the bags feet first, head at the cinched end where it could leak.

Thank you!

 

[wenwe4]

Yes, the stain on the spare tire cover matches Caylee's height from neck to foot, as outlined by BJB on JWG's composite (and by wenwe more recently I believe)--so IMO the stain on the edge of the trunk liner (off the edge of the spare tire cover) is from her head.

I am in total agreement!

 

[lemon]

Has any discussion ever been had about the white splash mark on the underside of this piece of the trunk? At the top right?

 

[wenwe4]

Wow. This thread is 14 pages long today on my 40-posts-per-page settings. There is so much good information and hypothesizing here, but it's unwieldy to wade through. Also, there seem to be some specific posts that we frequently want to revisit, either to refresh our memories :waitasec: or to get new WSers up to speed :grouphug:.

Below, please find an index of some of these posts, listed by their post # (since not everyone chooses the same posts-per-page settings).

DISCLAIMERS: Every post in this thread is valuable and there has been & will continue to be great discussion on this topic. Please know I am just trying to create a directory, especially of the images, and that the presence or absence of a particular post on this list is NOT a value judgement about any WSer!

Format here is post #, author, brief descriptor.

18, eidetic, unenhanced LE photos of trunk liner/spare tire cover
26, eidetic, unenhanced LE photos of test strip cut from spare tire cover
31, QueenD, how spare tire cover sits in trunk of Sunfire
56, Jolynna, link to Dr. Vass report
94, eidetic, color saturation increased view of liner/spare tire cover
107, JWG, possible outline of child FBI mention
112, eidetic, possible evidence of scrubbing trunk liner
129, eidetic, photo montage of white bag of trash, child in fetal position, laundry bag, trunk
170, Harmony2, photo montage of trunk, blue crate, white garbage bag
241, AZlawyer, another view with color saturation heightened
298, JWG, first thumbnail of stain from FBI photo
310, JWG, further analysis of FBI reports, 1st JWG interpretation of outline of child
324, Harmony2, analysis of FBI LIBS and entomology reports
365, BondJamesBond, further analysis of JWG's original interpretation of photo of outline
390, Harmony2, scientific analysis/link to article on decomposition
400, ynotdivein, theory on chloroform levels in trunk
405, ynotdivein, photo/theory on position of Caylee in laundry bag
445, sarah7855, evidence re: garbage bags found inside laundry bag, not vice versa
455, Intermezzo, link to investigators' photos of trunk
487, joypath, information on DNA re: decomp left in trunk
500, AZlawyer, measuring stain compared to Caylee's height/measurements
503, USARDOG, relevant story re: decomposing remains in black garbage bag left on concrete
520, JBean, link to "2.6 days decomp" thread
541-560, various, theory on position of Caylee's arms based on stain
562, 563, AZlawyer, information and link to machine possibly used by FBI to analyze stain components
620, wenwe4, helpful outline/tracing of shape of child in stain

HTH!

bumpin back up for quick reference

 

[ynotdivein]

wenwe, thank you! We're now 350 posts on from that index post (#656), can you believe it?

I love this thread--it contains some of the most dedicated sleuthing I've been privileged to witness. There's something so compelling about Caylee leaving her picture behind for LE to find and for the world to see... :grouphug:

 

[wenwe4]

Solace, honestly I thought I had this all figured out in my head all this time--am still reeling from the :blushing: of having it literally flipped on me! At this point, about the only thing I'm 100% sure of is that we ARE seeing an image of Caylee in these photos...

That being said, I have been noodling with the idea described by some other posters, that Caylee's hands are actually represented by the bright spot behind the waist/pull-up area. In which case, I do see two dark bands on her arms that could be tape. But I can totally see the arm in the position that you are describing, too.

It's like the story books for kids, where the picture on the cardboard cover shifts depending on the angle you hold it.

I'm totally afraid at this point to tiptoe into the image of Caylee's head...

Respectfully bolded by me:

I believe that you can see her left arm that she is laying on (as I outlined before in post #620) with her laying on her left side. I believe I see 2 places where her little arm (above the elbow) and wrist are duct taped with her arms pulled back behind her back. I further agree with the bolded part in your post above, in that I think that is the white-ish outline (bright spot behind her pullup/waist area) of her little right hand that is duct taped to her left wrist with some slight slack between them in the tape. The outlining of her left arm and hand would be outlined because it is pressed against the trunk liner/carpet. The right hand appears brighter and is more dispersed in it's pattern because it would fluids dripping a few inches off of the floor - thus the more "spotchy" due to splatters and drips. The outline of her left hand is dark because there is only fluids accumulating at the edges of her arm and hand and the brighter areas are where fluids drained into the carpet/liner. This is why it becomes so much more believeable that she does have duct tape on her arms in those darkened areas (wrist/upper arm) because the tape would have prevented the exact area from soaking fluids - thus causing darkened outlines of the duct tape.

ok - now i have rambled myself on and on to a point i probably am not making sense anymore. (i will go off in my happy place and quietly gather my senses - tap me on the shoulder later to see if i am ok?)

 

[AZlawyer]

Solace, honestly I thought I had this all figured out in my head all this time--am still reeling from the :blushing: of having it literally flipped on me! At this point, about the only thing I'm 100% sure of is that we ARE seeing an image of Caylee in these photos...

That being said, I have been noodling with the idea described by some other posters, that Caylee's hands are actually represented by the bright spot behind the waist/pull-up area. In which case, I do see two dark bands on her arms that could be tape. But I can totally see the arm in the position that you are describing, too.

It's like the story books for kids, where the picture on the cardboard cover shifts depending on the angle you hold it.

I'm totally afraid at this point to tiptoe into the image of Caylee's head...

Respectfully bolded by me:

I believe that you can see her left arm that she is laying on (as I outlined before in post #620) with her laying on her left side. I believe I see 2 places where her little arm (above the elbow) and wrist are duct taped with her arms pulled back behind her back. I further agree with the bolded part in your post above, in that I think that is the white-ish outline (bright spot behind her pullup/waist area) of her little right hand that is duct taped to her left wrist with some slight slack between them in the tape. The outlining of her left arm and hand would be outlined because it is pressed against the trunk liner/carpet. The right hand appears brighter and is more dispersed in it's pattern because it would fluids dripping a few inches off of the floor - thus the more "spotchy" due to splatters and drips. The outline of her left hand is dark because there is only fluids accumulating at the edges of her arm and hand and the brighter areas are where fluids drained into the carpet/liner. This is why it becomes so much more believeable that she does have duct tape on her arms in those darkened areas (wrist/upper arm) because the tape would have prevented the exact area from soaking fluids - thus causing darkened outlines of the duct tape.

ok - now i have rambled myself on and on to a point i probably am not making sense anymore. (i will go off in my happy place and quietly gather my senses - tap me on the shoulder later to see if i am ok?)

The theory that the bright spots interrupted by 2" gaps in two places are Caylee's arms bound behind her back by duct tape is supported by the fact that LE's series of enhanced photos focuses almost exclusively on that part of the stain.

 

[wenwe4]

wenwe, thank you! We're now 350 posts on from that index post (#656), can you believe it?

I love this thread--it contains some of the most dedicated sleuthing I've been privileged to witness. There's something so compelling about Caylee leaving her picture behind for LE to find and for the world to see... :grouphug:

Wanna add to your phenomenal index to keep us all updated on this thread? I wholeheartedly agree with you about this thread and I am looking forward to seeing what the State will have in the way of visuals in the upcoming hearing/trial.

 

[lemon]

Is there a consensus is on the location of the body in the trunk? I wasn't sure so I made up these images to help myself visualize different options. Thought they could be helpful to others.

I put in a picture of the underside, too.Thought the stain image could help. I flipped the image so it matches how we are seeing the top, if that makes sense.

 

[pip]

Is there a consensus is on the location of the body in the trunk? I wasn't sure so I made up these images to help myself visualize different options. Thought they could be helpful to others.

Wonderful! Great job! My interpretation is that her position was in picture #2.

 

[3doglady]

Is there a consensus is on the location of the body in the trunk? I wasn't sure so I made up these images to help myself visualize different options. Thought they could be helpful to others.

I put in a picture of the underside, too.Thought the stain image could help. I flipped the image so it matches how we are seeing the top, if that makes sense.

I cropped the picture you used. In this picture you can see the straight edge that was next to the trunk opening so it would be Picture #1.

 

[ynotdivein]

664 – Azlawyer – Do dark bands on image of arm represent duct tape (w/links to LE photos)
683 – LCoastMom – Link to another view of possible hand/fingers with dark band @ wrist
693-695 – wenwe/TallyHo/faefrost – possible shovel line on image; if tape is there = restraint = no accident
701 – ynot – Link to grid map of remains site and items located there (Q104 near arm bones)
712 – Tally – link to BeanE post on what items Q104 was found with
713 – Truth Prevails – Links to video of JA describing Caylee’s possible last moments (KC’s “make him stop” moment)
718 – Intermezzo – Link to thread “The Single Piece of Henkel Duct Tape Found NOT on Remains” (Q104)
734 – AZ – Link to LE picture of Q104
747-755 – Various – Discussion of toe position in image of stain
767 – bogeygal – Link to article about body staining in absence of actual remains
775ff – lemon and others – Theory on what caused white curved line at upper arm area of stain image
781 – cloud9 – Link to image of decomp fluid purging from nose comp. to image of red staining on outside of white trash bag taken from KC’s trunk ***warning GRAPHIC***
791 – 3doglady – Image of white curved line on upper arm portion of stain
795 – MADJGNLAW – Link to excellent LIBS article (thanks also to other posters who shared this)
802 – Chiquita72 – Partial transcription of GA statement to LE on 07/24/08 re: stain/smell
817 – LambChop – Thoughts on process to obtain “shroud of Turin” type image + squirrels
829 – joypath – “It is believed that the unconscious person does NOT have a reaction” to the absence of air.
839 – joypath – On foot image pre/post rigor; decomp rate; stain process; chloroform as fixative
848 – lemon – Stain image outlined to show hands in Caylee’s lap area
861 – AZ – Foot image focus in LE photos (toes)
868 – LcoastMom – Actual temps in Orlando 6/16/08 mean 81/max 90/min 73
880 – AZ – Is there an imprint of one of the letters on the “Big Trouble” shirt visible in the trunk stain?
896 – Chiquita – Link to LE trunk liner & car seat photos (photos 21, 22, 23 at this link represent area where Caylee’s head would have laid)
918 fwd – CarrieSis & others – sorting out image where Caylee’s head would have laid
944 – AZ – Clarifies Caylee was laying with her back against the rear bumper side of trunk, not the back seats :blushing:
948 – CarrieSis – theory that impression is Caylee face down
963 – pip – Picture of a Sunfire trunk/liner (NOT KC’s) for spatial relations
966 – AZ – Herding cats/debunking misconceptions
976 – 3doglady – spatially rotated image looking into KC’s trunk at stain
987 – 3doglady – Stain with outline showing hands bound behind back
1014 – AZ – Theory re: Caylee’s arms bound behind her back in two places supported by fact that LE photos focus so intently on these areas on the trunk liner

 

[ynotdivein]

OK, index posts are now at 656 and 1019. Is there a mod around who can magically bump these up towards the front of the thread like a table of contents?