2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner

[TallyHo]

Thank you to everyone who has been contributing to this thread - you all :rocker:!

I have been trying to wrap my head around why Casey would have duct taped the upper part of Caylee's arms unless she also wrapped the tape clear around her torso to keep her from being able to move her arms forward. And every time I think this I am drawn back to the white line that follows fairly closely along the edge of that upper tape section and appears to extend around her chest. I do see the upper part of her arm pulled behind her back.

 

[wenwe4]

664 – Azlawyer – Do dark bands on image of arm represent duct tape (w/links to LE photos)
683 – LCoastMom – Link to another view of possible hand/fingers with dark band @ wrist
693-695 – wenwe/TallyHo/faefrost – possible shovel line on image; if tape is there = restraint = no accident
701 – ynot – Link to grid map of remains site and items located there (Q104 near arm bones)
712 – Tally – link to BeanE post on what items Q104 was found with
713 – Truth Prevails – Links to video of JA describing Caylee’s possible last moments (KC’s “make him stop” moment)
718 – Intermezzo – Link to thread “The Single Piece of Henkel Duct Tape Found NOT on Remains” (Q104)
734 – AZ – Link to LE picture of Q104
747-755 – Various – Discussion of toe position in image of stain
767 – bogeygal – Link to article about body staining in absence of actual remains
775ff – lemon and others – Theory on what caused white curved line at upper arm area of stain image
781 – cloud9 – Link to image of decomp fluid purging from nose comp. to image of red staining on outside of white trash bag taken from KC’s trunk ***warning GRAPHIC***
791 – 3doglady – Image of white curved line on upper arm portion of stain
795 – MADJGNLAW – Link to excellent LIBS article (thanks also to other posters who shared this)
802 – Chiquita72 – Partial transcription of GA statement to LE on 07/24/08 re: stain/smell
817 – LambChop – Thoughts on process to obtain “shroud of Turin” type image + squirrels
829 – joypath – “It is believed that the unconscious person does NOT have a reaction” to the absence of air.
839 – joypath – On foot image pre/post rigor; decomp rate; stain process; chloroform as fixative
848 – lemon – Stain image outlined to show hands in Caylee’s lap area
861 – AZ – Foot image focus in LE photos (toes)
868 – LcoastMom – Actual temps in Orlando 6/16/08 mean 81/max 90/min 73
880 – AZ – Is there an imprint of one of the letters on the “Big Trouble” shirt visible in the trunk stain?
896 – Chiquita – Link to LE trunk liner & car seat photos (photos 21, 22, 23 at this link represent area where Caylee’s head would have laid)
918 fwd – CarrieSis & others – sorting out image where Caylee’s head would have laid
944 – AZ – Clarifies Caylee was laying with her back against the rear bumper side of trunk, not the back seats :blushing:
948 – CarrieSis – theory that impression is Caylee face down
963 – pip – Picture of a Sunfire trunk/liner (NOT KC’s) for spatial relations
966 – AZ – Herding cats/debunking misconceptions
976 – 3doglady – spatially rotated image looking into KC’s trunk at stain
987 – 3doglady – Stain with outline showing hands bound behind back
1014 – AZ – Theory re: Caylee’s arms bound behind her back in two places supported by fact that LE photos focus so intently on these areas on the trunk liner

Thank You So Much for index #2!!!! Look at the incredible work done here @ WS!!! :woohoo:

 

[3doglady]

Thank you to everyone who has been contributing to this thread - you all :rocker:!

I have been trying to wrap my head around why Casey would have duct taped the upper part of Caylee's arms unless she also wrapped the tape clear around her torso to keep her from being able to move her arms forward. And every time I think this I am drawn back to the white line that follows fairly closely along the edge of that upper tape section and appears to extend around her chest. I do see the upper part of her arm pulled behind her back.

Is this the line you are talking about. I thought the end curled around like a string.

 

[wenwe4]

Is this the line you are talking about. I thought the end curled around like a string.View attachment 14362

upthread (many pages ago #693) I was asking about this very line. It looks exactly like the shovel head shape to me. Compare and contrast with head of the shovel picture (i will see if i can find it - i posted it previously). I keep wondering if the disney bag they found @ the remains site wasn't slipped over the head of the shovel to keep it from absorbing fluids, then the disney bag was just slipped into the garbage bags with the body and tossed out with the rest of the trash (I am so sorry little Caylee).

 

[lonetraveler]

Just wanted to say that I am totally amazed at the talent on WS. Y'all are the greatest. A lot of hard work has gone into the evidence and I for one truly appreciate all you have done. We are all going to need intervention if this stain evidence is not allowed in the trial. I don't even want to think about it.

 

[TallyHo]

Is this the line you are talking about. I thought the end curled around like a string.View attachment 14362

Yes - that's the one.

 

[wenwe4]

bbm

I believe this "shroud of Turin" for Caylee (see Usardog's post re:skunk - bumped post #673) is the negative image of how she lay in that trunk for 2.6 days (if not longer). This shows the most detail because it is what laid there the longest.

I have been further obsessing over seeing an outline of the shovel coming down from her shoulder area toward the chest. Here is a link to the pics of the shovel . . . notice the curve and point of the blade of the shovel. See picture 13 of 24.

http://www.wesh.com/slideshow/news/21249090/detail.html

Does anyone see the outline of the same curve coming in from the top left of the stain in the trunk and the point ending up just below where her nipple area would be on her chest?

It's just a faint white line that crosses her forearm on the left part of the pic and the point of the curve (of what appears to be the shovel) is just left and adjacent to the dark spot directly below the point where BJB noted the word "chest".

(see post #620 for pic for quick reference)

I just wanted to bold the "seeing kitties" part of your post because I swear I am seeing a shovel point. I didn't highlight it and post a picture - I want to see if anyone else can see this.

quoting myself - so someone else is seeing this line! check out the pic referenced in the above link - what do you all think? (see my post #693)

 

[ynotdivein]

upthread (many pages ago) I was asking about this very line. It looks exactly like the shovel head shape to me. Compare and contrast with head of the shovel picture (i will see if i can find it - i posted it previously). I keep wondering if the disney bag they found @ the remains site wasn't slipped over the head of the shovel to keep it from absorbing fluids, then the disney bag was just slipped into the garbage bags with the body and tossed out with the rest of the trash (I am so sorry little Caylee).

posts 693ff, wenwe.

I might not have the spatial relations down, but I sure know where posts are in this thread now! :rocker:

 

[lemon]

I cropped the picture you used. In this picture you can see the straight edge that was next to the trunk opening so it would be Picture #1.View attachment 14361

That's actually not the image I used. I wish I had found that one though:doh: The one I used was already cropped so I couldn't figure it out, hence my apparently pointless photoshop experiment, lol.

 

[ynotdivein]

That's actually not the image I used. I wish I had found that one though:doh: The one I used was already cropped so I couldn't figure it out, hence my apparently pointless photoshop experiment, lol.

lemon, look around you. You are at WS. There is no "pointless photoshop experiment" option here. There is only "will"--as in, we WILL do our absolute best to help Caylee tell her truth!

 

[Harmony 2]

I always thought Caylee lay on the rounded portion of the liner because it made sense to me that the decomposition fluids would seep through and stain the other side. Moreover, I thought Casey placed her there and put things in front of her like the blue crate, the trash bag and gas cans to hide her in case the trunk was incidentally opened. The realization that Caylee actually lay by the opening of the trunk has made alot of things click. Her head would have been right on or near the cut sections of the liner where Q22-Q25 and Q44-Q45 were cut from. This is where the large amounts of chloroform were detected. IIRC I believe the hair with the death band was also found on that side of the trunk. It also makes sense now that considering Casey is of petite stature that it would have been easier to just place Caylee's body there at the opening of the trunk. I am having a hard time buying into Caylee's arms being bounded in two areas though. I can imagine the wrists being bounded together. I just can't see how the arms could be connected with duct tape at the top portion in the front or the back. I tried joining my arms together and not physically possible unless I am not understanding how they would have been joined and duct taped there.

 

[ynotdivein]

I always thought Caylee lay on the rounded portion of the liner because it made sense to me that the decomposition fluids would seep through and stain the other side. Moreover, I thought Casey placed her there and put things in front of her like the blue crate, the trash bag and gas cans to hide her in case the trunk was incidentally opened. The realization that Caylee actually lay by the opening of the trunk has made alot of things click. Her head would have been right on or near the cut sections of the liner where Q22-Q25 and Q44-Q45 were cut from. This is where the large amounts of chloroform were detected. IIRC I believe the hair with the death band was also found on that side of the trunk. It also makes sense now that considering Casey is of petite stature that it would have been easier to just place Caylee's body there at the opening of the trunk. I am having a hard time buying into Caylee's arms being bounded in two areas though. I can imagine the wrists being bounded together. I just can't see how the arms could be connected with duct tape at the top portion in the front or the back. I tried joining my arms together and not physically possible unless I am not understanding how they would have been joined and duct taped there.

Harmony, thank you for summarizing a lot of what has been in my head since being schooled (thankfully) on where Caylee really left her image in the trunk.

I agree about the upper-arm tape band being hard to believe. But remember that immediately before or after death, and again immediately after rigor (if Caylee's tiny body went through rigor), banding the two arms together just above the elbows would have been easier... She was so much younger than us, and so much less resistant... :sigh:

 

[ynotdivein]

I see tape in two places. View attachment 14348

Bumping this one to show what folks are seeing when they talk about two bands of duct tape on Caylee's little arms, bound behind her back.

 

[CarrieSis]

I am withdrawing my facedown theory - when the spare tire cover is in place in this model car, it is flush with the trunk liner. That area of trunk liner we were debating over shown in ALS would not be directly exposed when the trunk liner was in place, so it is just seepage of fluids and anything it resembles are just squirrels IMO.

TYVM to the person who posted the picture of an intact trunk for this model car as it made it clear. I thought the cover ended up being a little recessed and was mistaken.

 

[ynotdivein]

I really wanted to see Caylee's hand in her lap.

I wanted to see her arms unbound.

I can't see it that way anymore. Should have known better.

 

[3doglady]

Harmony, thank you for summarizing a lot of what has been in my head since being schooled (thankfully) on where Caylee really left her image in the trunk.

I agree about the upper-arm tape band being hard to believe. But remember that immediately before or after death, and again immediately after rigor (if Caylee's tiny body went through rigor), banding the two arms together just above the elbows would have been easier... She was so much younger than us, and so much less resistant... :sigh:

The dark area on her upper arm could be where the blanket was wadded up under her. Earlier we discussed the possibility of the white line being a fold in the blanket that decomp fluid settled in.

 

[wenwe4]

I finally found the original pic of the wtp blanket found @ the scene.

Here is a b/w pic released in 2/09 - see pg 710+/1405

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21252257/detail.html



compare here with a copy of the color version of this pic

pic 449/1113

http://s439.photobucket.com/albums/...leecross/?action=view&current=Cindydepo26.jpg

I will put these same links in the wtp thread so as not too stray too ot.

 

[cloud9]

I finally found the original pic of the wtp blanket found @ the scene.

Here is a b/w pic released in 2/09 - see pg 710+/1405

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21252257/detail.html



compare here with a copy of the color version of this pic

pic 449/1113

http://s439.photobucket.com/albums/...leecross/?action=view&current=Cindydepo26.jpg

I will put these same links in the wtp thread so as not too stray too ot.

Thank you!

I am so stupid!!! :doh: I always thought the color photo was the laundry bag!

 

[Lera213]

quoting myself - so someone else is seeing this line! check out the pic referenced in the above link - what do you all think? (see my post #693)

I'm not sure but looking at the photo from post 620 to me it looks like the outline of the stomach and just above that is where blood probably pooled?

 

[Lera213]

I cropped the picture you used. In this picture you can see the straight edge that was next to the trunk opening so it would be Picture #1.View attachment 14361

In this photo I notice the head area is much darker would this indicate more fluids lost via the head area and could this be a head injury that Caylee sustained?