2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner

[strawberry]

You know, I read these reports, sometimes I am just skimming along to see what's interesting and then something will stop me cold.... the FBI photographic technician states he believes Caylee was not immediately bagged but was done so after Casey borrowed Brian Burner's shovel. An image comes to mind of Casey shoveling the decomposing body of Caylee from her trunk into garbage bags, and I just crumple thinking about that..

That caught me too...I thought of the image of KC just throwing her in there and shutting the door. And her rolling around in there. Awful. And it has been one theory here that the shovel was used not to try and bury her but to get her into the bag. (or both). So awful.

 

[Curious Me]

Me too. It literally hurts. I hope every juror will feel that way too.

I'm sure it will get real scientific and the defense team will try their darnest to make light of the outline of a little girl's decomposing body in the trunk of her mother's car, but it is such a gut wrenching realization when you see the outline that it's unforgettable and undeniable, IMO.

The shovel story and the image of the bagging is something no one should ever have to do or imagine. And the duct tape. It's almost too much to handle these visions, and the jury will be seeing blown-up pictures. Very powerful. To think, Casey didn't think twice about borrowing a shovel - like no one was ever going to question her about it.

Can't wait to see Caylee get Justice.

 

[alphaville]

Another thought -- apparently there was no DNA found in the stain, and DNA can be destroyed by heat. When we talk about Cindy allegedly "steam cleaning" the trunk, I think most people think about some type of carpet or upholstery cleaning machine. These type of cleaners don't really get very hot and would leave some of the chemical cleaning liquid behind. But there are also steam cleaners that produce a very hot, directed stream of steam that many people use on tough to clean areas. They only produce steam, they do not suck up anything. Seems to me that if someone in that family had a law enforcement background and wanted to destroy evidence in that trunk, they might know that blasting everything with scorching steam would destroy the DNA and leave no telltale chemicals behind.

Hey, I rarely post but I had to jump in here. Be aware my knowledge is limited but I do have some to share. I am a biotechnology student and I work with DNA on occasion.

It is more likely that if there was DNA in the trunk it degraded between the period of time that Caylee was placed in there and the time CA found it. Warm, moist temperatures will cause it to degrade, over time. It takes a lot of heat to completely destroy DNA. Relatively low heat (say 200 or so degrees) will not completely destroy DNA. It will cause it to basically split in two (between the nucleotide bases, hydrogen bonds), more accurately, it melts and can be reformed when cooled. If it was steam cleaned it would have to be very high heat to destroy it completely because of the covalent bonds in the back bone of DNA. A quick search on steam cleaners and their temps came up with 180 degrees. Even if there were fragments left (how possible would it be to completely remove every piece of DNA from that trunk with a steam cleaner?) PCR could be performed. (PCR uses the "melting" aspect of DNA to drive its process, heat is applied and the two strands break apart allowing matching nucleotides to join and make copies, aka amplify)

I am guessing that Caylee was in a bag that did not leak. Where the stain came from, I do not know. Could be unrelated or if it is her fluids, it degraded over time.

 

[ynotdivein]

Lots of interesting discussion on this earlier thread too:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89610"]Stain in Trunk May Show Outline of Child in the fetal position.[/ame]

 

[AZlawyer]

...one of them isn't necessary."

A quote I can't seem to attach to its original author, but, one that comes to mind when I find myself askew to someone like my good friend JWG, with whom I'm typically in agreement. In this case my perspective on the potential stain in the trunk outline is slightly different.

ETA: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2010.02.16 Doc Dump: Stain on Trunk Liner


In the interest of full disclosure, this is an area where I have demonstrated less than stellar abilities. The crime scene photos held all kinds of stuff in my view that it turns out... just weren't there. :bang: So...expecting just as much to be off as on - I submit to you what I'm seeing.

On the left below is the unretouched composite image that JWG so kindly pieced together & shared :thumb:. On the right is a copy of the image I have colorized to highlight what appears to me to be the outline. I have tagged some elements of the anatomy that should help you to recognize the overall positioning. Aside from adding the color and labels I have not modified the image in any way.

A description of what I'm seeing is the body in a crouching/fetal position with the points of greatest pressure (hip, shoulder, elbow & abdomen) demonstrating the most intense white (in the original). With the body laying essentially on one side with the upper torso slightly twisted such that the chest and abdomen are lying on the carpet. The torso is lying on top of what would be the left arm (mirror image) with the elbow located just behind the small of the back and the forearm passing across the abdomen and the hand(s) indistinguishable, but, positioned in what would be the lap area. The knee would be positioned over the hole in the wheel cover and the foot positioned somewhat in an on-the-toes fashion.

In this scenario the head would be resting on the section of carpet closest to the fender (not in this image as it is only of the wheel cover). IOW...the top of the image is where the shoulders would be located.

BJB's interpretation of the placement of Caylee's body is worth bumping IMO.

 

[Intermezzo]

I'm sure it will get real scientific and the defense team will try their darnest to make light of the outline of a little girl's decomposing body in the trunk of her mother's car, but it is such a gut wrenching realization when you see the outline that it's unforgettable and undeniable, IMO.

The shovel story and the image of the bagging is something no one should ever have to do or imagine. And the duct tape. It's almost too much to handle these visions, and the jury will be seeing blown-up pictures. Very powerful. To think, Casey didn't think twice about borrowing a shovel - like no one was ever going to question her about it.

Can't wait to see Caylee get Justice.

BBM
CM,
Think instead of State Prosecutor Jeff Ashton speaking during the trial to the Jury about the outline of a little girls decomposing body in the trunk of her mother's car.
Just like when he spoke in court to the Judge and those in attendance about how the duct tape was being applied to Caylee and her last moments of life.

 

[joypath]

Hey, I rarely post but I had to jump in here. Be aware my knowledge is limited but I do have some to share. I am a biotechnology student and I work with DNA on occasion.

It is more likely that if there was DNA in the trunk it degraded between the period of time that Caylee was placed in there and the time CA found it. Warm, moist temperatures will cause it to degrade, over time. It takes a lot of heat to completely destroy DNA. Relatively low heat (say 200 or so degrees) will not completely destroy DNA. It will cause it to basically split in two (between the nucleotide bases, hydrogen bonds), more accurately, it melts and can be reformed when cooled. If it was steam cleaned it would have to be very high heat to destroy it completely because of the covalent bonds in the back bone of DNA. A quick search on steam cleaners and their temps came up with 180 degrees. Even if there were fragments left (how possible would it be to completely remove every piece of DNA from that trunk with a steam cleaner?) PCR could be performed. (PCR uses the "melting" aspect of DNA to drive its process, heat is applied and the two strands break apart allowing matching nucleotides to join and make copies, aka amplify)

I am guessing that Caylee was in a bag that did not leak. Where the stain came from, I do not know. Could be unrelated or if it is her fluids, it degraded over time.

:twocents:Excellent post and to add to this point, let's remember that the key feature of DNA isolation is that the recovery is from celluar material that is nucleated, that is cells that have a nucleus, NOT from "all body fluids" as some internet reference sites seem to allude. :banghead: And just for general "cocktail conversation trivia" human red blood cells aka erythrocytes circulating within the blood stream aka "mature RBCs" DO NOT demonstrate a nucleus under a microscope. Famous "trick" of drug seeking ER patients:furious:: come in with "uber pain", claim kidney stone, toss a little chicken blood into own urine, have a positive "heme-stick test in the ER", get BUSTED by the :innocent:Lab Med Tech :angel:who reports nucleated RBCs under microscopic sediment!, NO DRUGS, SO SAD!:truce:

On a second point: finding DNA of an individual whose property could/should be within the confines of an area is not a specific forensic "TA DA"! :snooty: The probability of transfer DNA from ANY item of ANY ANTHONY family member who REGULARLY utilized that car/trunk and the contents within is exponentially increased as the number and duration of contacts increase. Finding said biological markers within, under or comixed with decomposition fluids, whole different story!:furious:

 

[Tulessa]

BJB's interpretation of the placement of Caylee's body is worth bumping IMO.

This is absolutely nauseating and the first time that I actually get it!

 

[Gma Kat]

Hey, I rarely post but I had to jump in here. Be aware my knowledge is limited but I do have some to share. I am a biotechnology student and I work with DNA on occasion.

It is more likely that if there was DNA in the trunk it degraded between the period of time that Caylee was placed in there and the time CA found it. Warm, moist temperatures will cause it to degrade, over time. It takes a lot of heat to completely destroy DNA. Relatively low heat (say 200 or so degrees) will not completely destroy DNA. It will cause it to basically split in two (between the nucleotide bases, hydrogen bonds), more accurately, it melts and can be reformed when cooled. If it was steam cleaned it would have to be very high heat to destroy it completely because of the covalent bonds in the back bone of DNA. A quick search on steam cleaners and their temps came up with 180 degrees. Even if there were fragments left (how possible would it be to completely remove every piece of DNA from that trunk with a steam cleaner?) PCR could be performed. (PCR uses the "melting" aspect of DNA to drive its process, heat is applied and the two strands break apart allowing matching nucleotides to join and make copies, aka amplify)

I am guessing that Caylee was in a bag that did not leak. Where the stain came from, I do not know. Could be unrelated or if it is her fluids, it degraded over time.

Thank you for your post! You may be a student, but you have taught me a lot. I look forward to you jumping in more often in these matters.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Me too. It literally hurts. I hope every juror will feel that way too.

I hope the image of that is imprinted on Casey's mind when she falls asleep every night..

 

[Gma Kat]

BJB's interpretation of the placement of Caylee's body is worth bumping IMO.

Worth bumping yet again, and might I add......

I was scanning this thread when I saw the images. I worked as an ultrasound tech for a short while and when I saw AZ's bump I thought I was looking at a body scan of a small child. Then I realized it was the pictures of the trunk evidence. I didn't see it when this evidence was released initially. I mean, I saw it, but I was looking for it, and even then had difficulty seeing what others were seeing.

Now today, literally glancing at the images out of the corner of my eye (while watching GH with the rest of my eyes...) I see the outline of her body quite clearly, and with the help of JWG and BJB can understand how she was positioned within the trunk itself.

It's been awhile since this case made my heart so heavy.

 

[littlemisslegal]

another site has done a comparision on the measurement of the imprint. its compared with a ruler in the lenght of the stain. what started out as a post--- of what if casey was once again secret pregnant and that stain is a panic disposal of a miscarriage fetus? remember when george said that dead body smell is not my grandaughter? some of us thought it was a strange thing to say - like whos dead body is is it then? do you ride around with dead bodies in your car? since so much has been thought of and some of it off the wall this could be not so crazy. what if thats why she had tattoo of good life. no more worry of another snot nose ? problem solved - miscarriage. it would not be first time she hid pregancy. however she did have sex i am sure with men and someone might have noticed she gained a lil tummy- but no one said that i do not think. then we have the real body found of just bones in woods. no matter how many times i think of that i still do not know how casey functioned if her child was missing 31 days. was she so happy she was not pregnant again and thought casey was safe with someone she dumped her on? did she think she could now live the good life? thats the only way i could see her behaving as if her child was not missing- she thought she knew were she was but then she could not find her-she herself gave her to someone- and had to come up with zanny and other tales of wonder. then she is found dead and she is were she is now- in a big mess

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

Wishful thinking??? If it were a fetus, are they trying to claim Caylee is still alive and not her who laid in her mothers car trunk???? Or that it wasn't Caylee who was cremated???? Disgusting thought!

No, no fetus, it was Caylee, IMO...GA's, "that's not my granddaughter in the back of my granddaughters car", was the actual statement...since he was all flustered...what he was trying to do was "cover up" for his darling daughter, totally putting Caylee out of their minds as deceased! This is all part of the cover up, they have to now try to take back their words since the DP is lingering over their daughters head...JMHO

They have been trying to recreate history from July 16, 2008...which is why I was so thankful CA's 911 calls were recorded and logged into evidence. That is the ONLY time she was being honest...JMHO



Justice for Caylee

 

[GuardianAngel]

That is a good line of thought. But fetus and babies that have not had any food decompose in a very different way than ones does when they start ingesting food. I read it somewhere the smell will be completely different than human decomposition. The body farm should have picked up a different result in that scenario.
Just my thought. BTW long time lurker first post.

 

[LancelotLink]

Would a fetus have a strand of hair with a death band?

And George, it would still be your granddaughter.

Very thought provoking thread!!

Welcome, Guardian Angel!!

 

[USARDOG]

another site has done a comparision on the measurement of the imprint. its compared with a ruler in the lenght of the stain. what started out as a post--- of what if casey was once again secret pregnant and that stain is a panic disposal of a miscarriage fetus? remember when george said that dead body smell is not my grandaughter? some of us thought it was a strange thing to say - like whos dead body is is it then? do you ride around with dead bodies in your car? since so much has been thought of and some of it off the wall this could be not so crazy. what if thats why she had tattoo of good life. no more worry of another snot nose ? problem solved - miscarriage. it would not be first time she hid pregancy. however she did have sex i am sure with men and someone might have noticed she gained a lil tummy- but no one said that i do not think. then we have the real body found of just bones in woods. no matter how many times i think of that i still do not know how casey functioned if her child was missing 31 days. was she so happy she was not pregnant again and thought casey was safe with someone she dumped her on? did she think she could now live the good life? thats the only way i could see her behaving as if her child was not missing- she thought she knew were she was but then she could not find her-she herself gave her to someone- and had to come up with zanny and other tales of wonder. then she is found dead and she is were she is now- in a big mess

Not surprised the stain is smaller than the object, this is normal with the object is contained but some seeps out. Fluid seeks the lowest level, so it would start immediately under the body.

There is no evidence ICA was pregnant, and in fact if it were a fetus it would have been spontaneously aborted, and then why on EARTH would ICA put it in her trunk and drive around with it. Depending on size a fetus would be very easy to dispose of. Then there is the matter of the missing Caylee. There is ZERO evidence that Caylee ever had a baby sitter other than people like CA, GA and Jessy's parents. So, who is it she would be with??

What you are not taking into consideration is that ICA does not have a conscience like we know it. IMO, she had a very poor childhood, and as a result became what I know as a sociopath. Someone who lacks empathy for others. So for her, getting rid of the "Little snot head" would lead to a "Beautiful Life." Remember back to her diary when she wrote something to the effect of... I'm happier than I have ever been, and the steps I took to get here were dangerous, and only time will show if they will work out." Sounds to me like she got rid of the "little snot head" so she could have her "beautiful life," and she was just hoping this didn't lead to some problems.

She had been allowed to lie all her life, and I don't think she really understood that the police were not going to just ask her some preliminary questions and let her go back to her "beautiful life." After all, her parents always had.

No, just my opinion, I don't think there is a chance in $$$$ ICA was pregnant, put a fetus in the trunk, and some mysterious killer killed Caylee, and ICA is protecting her family by keeping silent instead of leading the police to Caylee, especially before she was found dead. Under your senario, she would have to have known who had Caylee while Caylee was alive, but yet she resused to lead police to the real kidnappers... Do you really think this is logical or possible?

 

[believe09]

what other site and is it one that is an acceptable reference here? And the idea that one might pass a fetus and put it in the trunk of the car is surreal. Especially given the hair with the death band and the length of it.

I suppose the defense might introduce this possibility as a means of supporting the PPP which was bandied about initially regarding this case....but then they would have to conceed a few things that would certainly tangle their client up. JMVHO.

 

[alphaville]

I'd be curious to see what size they measured. KC would have had to have been really far along for it to be any significant size. A fetus isn't, on average, even a pound until well into the second trimester. You must remember, babies do a lot of growing in the third trimester because they are mostly done developing all their parts. That's like the real significant growth stage.

I am a huge cynic when it comes to this case (for the record, I do believe Caylee died at the hands of her mother, I just don't know if it was intentional or not and won't ever know unless I have all the facts in front of me.) However, this seems to be a stretch. I'd say the stain isn't even from a body before I'd consider it a miscarried fetus

 

[Solace]

....are those white things maggots? Also this is the underside of the lining yes? No wonder the car reeked. Absolutely disgusting. The body must have been well gone by the time she disposed of it. How anybody could drive around with that in their trunk is beyond me, that really is horrific.

Forensic report says the body had started the "initial" purging - nose and mouth. The second stage of purging had not started yet. But I can imagine in 90 degree heat in a trunk where it is more than likely hotter than that, the purging was horrendous.

 

[AZlawyer]

A 3-year-old child should be about 5 "heads" tall (i.e., five times as tall as their head). http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.idrawdigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/prop2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.idrawdigital.com/tag/proportions/&h=814&w=746&sz=179&tbnid=7Y_q9v9EZgSfOM:&tbnh=144&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dchild%2Bbody%2Bproportions&hl=en&usg=__lXOEJGL0A1D7fNWr4Uj5n5w_Z4g=&ei=R1q1S8_lII--NsjbtaEG&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=5&ct=image&ved=0CBEQ9QEwBA

Caylee was about 37 inches tall, so each "head" length for her would have been about 7.4 inches. Based on BJB's interpretation of the stain on the spare tire cover, Caylee's head was off the cover (on the side of the trunk area), so there should be a total of about 7.4 inches x 4 (instead of 5 because the head is not part of the stain)= 29.6 inches of height represented by the stain.

Looking at the JWG/BJB version of the photo (attached), one foot on LE's ruler equals 1.75 inches on my ruler when I hold my ruler up against the screen.

Using my ruler against the screen, the torso portion of the stain measures 1.75 inches, the back of the upper leg about 1.375 inches, and the back of the lower leg about 1.375 inches. The total is about 4.5 inches. If each 1.75 inch on my ruler equals one foot in "real life" (as measured by LE's ruler), then the height of the body that left the stain, from heel to shoulder, would be 4.5/1.75 feet, or 2.57 feet, or 30.84 inches. Which is pretty darn close to the 29.6 inches that I estimated for Caylee's heel-to-shoulder height.

So. This is just a long way of saying no way was it a fetus. It was Caylee.