2010.04.02 *SPECIFIC* Caylee's Position Inside Bags

[LolaMoon08]

I reread the report, again, from Oakridge re: the 2.6 days.

http://www.cfnews13.com/static/articles/images/documents/ORNL-report-prepared-for-OCSO-0322.pdf

It summarizes on page 8 that the error estimation for Sodium is quite high in early stages of decomposition. It also states that although these findings are still preliminary and must be confirmed with standards, although it is consistent with that of a decompositional event occurring in the trunk.

I never understood, per reading the report, that 2.6 days was a definitive conclusion, but only a preliminary assessment as explained in the report. I suspect locking into 2.6 days as definitive is a misnomer. It certainly leaves room for potential variations.

I understand that the body would purge more after a week, but she was also within 2 plastic bags. How much would be in the trunk liner vs. retained in the bags? We don't know the answer. Was it 2.6 days of being unbagged in the trunk which caused the decomp fluid to create the stain before she was bagged? Perhaps after bagging her, NO decomp fluid leaked out of the bags. We don't know that either. I just think there are unknown variables here that could possibly create different results.

When I was younger (teens) I had a habit of leaving cans of soda half empty and instead of pouring the soda in the sink I would simply double bag trash bags to make it not leak... well... it still leaked! It would leave a huge sticky stain on my kitchen floor! Thank goodness I broke that habit!

 

[pip]

When I was younger (teens) I had a habit of leaving cans of soda half empty and instead of pouring the soda in the sink I would simply double bag trash bags to make it not leak... well... it still leaked! It would leave a huge sticky stain on my kitchen floor! Thank goodness I broke that habit!

2 kitchen bags or 2 black yard bags inside a laundry bag? Did you wrap the soda in a blanket before tossing it into the bags? LOL Different scenario I think, but jmo of course.

 

[LolaMoon08]

2 kitchen bags or 2 black yard bags inside a laundry bag? Did you wrap the soda in a blanket before tossing it into the bags? LOL Different scenario I think, but jmo of course.

Oh, I know it is a completely different scenario, but Caylee had to have weighed? 25-30 pounds? I could see Caylee's body fluids easily leaking out of two yard sized garbage bags. I've cleaned out my fridge with the large black garbage bags (double bagged) that weighed less than 25-30 pounds and the bags completely busted on my way to the dumpster (what a mess that made!!). Casey most likely did not carry those garbage bags by the strings because I believe they would have also busted. I think that is why she grabbed the laundry bag to help her in moving Caylee.

Adding in the weather in June... and the evidence that Caylee was in that trunk in the early stages of decomposition... I believe she was removed from that trunk on the 18th-19th. I believe there would have been a lot more evidence to clean up (and missed) had she been left in there any longer.

I'm just going with instinct and my knowledge of living here in Florida. My personal use of garbage bags and the evidence that has been released. I could be 100% wrong... but it is just my opinion.

 

[Gma Kat]

Also some experts are stating that in the Florida heat in June her body might be completely skeltonized within a week. It's just nature's way of disposing of something that is no longer useful to support life. The heat just speeds it up.

I reread the report, again, from Oakridge re: the 2.6 days.

http://www.cfnews13.com/static/articles/images/documents/ORNL-report-prepared-for-OCSO-0322.pdf

It summarizes on page 8 that the error estimation for Sodium is quite high in early stages of decomposition. It also states that although these findings are still preliminary and must be confirmed with standards, it is still consistent with that of a decompositional event occurring in the trunk.

I never understood, per reading the report, that 2.6 days was a definitive conclusion, but only a preliminary assessment as explained in the report. I suspect locking into 2.6 days as definitive is a misnomer. It certainly leaves room for potential variations.

I understand that the body would purge more after a week, but she was also within 2 plastic bags, and wrapped in a baby blanket. How much would be in the trunk liner vs. retained in the bags and blanket? We don't know the answer. Was it 2.6 days of being unbagged in the trunk which caused the decomp fluid to create the stain before she was bagged? Perhaps after bagging her, NO decomp fluid leaked out of the bags. We don't know that either. I just think there are unknown variables here that could possibly create different results.

BBM: ITA. Based on the defense/ICA's reaction to some of the scenarios the SA has brought up I believe that the SA may be incorrect in their theorie(s) and THAT is what has ICA and her team so upset at times. They can't just come out and say "That's NOT how it happened (because we KNOW how it happened)" but the SA's version of events can be fit into most of the evidence. I strongly feel that this case, as in all cases, can have those variables that both man and science can not account for.

Specifically, the bagging. I don't see why the different bags and events could not have taken place at difference times as detailed in this thread. Finding exactly the scenario may forever evade us. What will not be lost on the jury however is not that we are discussing the manner this precious child was bagged, but rather that indeed this child was TRIPLE BAGGED - PERIOD.

 

[pip]

I would also imagine that inside a blanket, inside 3 bags, inside a trunk with heat over 100 or even more, much of the free fluid was vaporized and dehydrated before ever making it out of the bags to the trunk liner. The human body water content is approx. 75% of total body weight. I am inclined to think she was in the trunk without bags and only the blanket initially to create the stain and then bagged. The stain line looks like it may have been seepage thru the blanket and the blanket had a crease and she is face down, I don't know how the outline of her body could be so perfect thru a blanket, 2 trash bags and a laundry bag. JMO.

 

[Solace]

I would also imagine that inside a blanket, inside 3 bags, inside a trunk with heat over 100 or even more, much of the free fluid was vaporized and dehydrated before ever making it out of the bags to the trunk liner. The human body water content is approx. 75% of total body weight. I am inclined to think she was in the trunk without bags and only the blanket initially to create the stain and then bagged. The stain line looks like it may have been seepage thru the blanket and the blanket had a crease and she is face down, I don't know how the outline of her body could be so perfect thru a blanket, 2 trash bags and a laundry bag. JMO.

Exactly what I thought Pip. I know I read somewhere that LE thought she went back to the house to put her in bags and then get rid of Caylee. I think she was just wrapped in a blanket. I think she did this quickly and went back to it later. As horrible as that all is.

 

[pip]

Exactly what I thought Pip. I know I read somewhere that LE thought she went back to the house to put her in bags and then get rid of Caylee. I think she was just wrapped in a blanket. I think she did this quickly and went back to it later. As horrible as that all is.

Yes, it is horrible. Can you imagine having to do that? I suspect she returned to the house for bags on one of those occasions BB saw her pull into the garage after the 16th.

 

[wenwe4]

What I do believe is that what we have found with very limited information, pales in comparison to what the SA actually have for evidence in this case. I do have to say that my own brain says her body must have come in contact with that trunk liner and was placed in the bags a couple of days later. Usardog's account of the shroud of turin on the concrete inside 2 plastic bags - I have to believe that story. Also, the concrete etching of the corpse that had been cleaned with an acidic cleaner helped to produce adipocere in the absense of a lot of moisture. I am really wondering if Caylee laid there just long enough to begin to purge liquids through her skin in a heated trunk (ie: think sweat). She was probably placed into bags as soon as KC noticed the body was decomposing in some way - also to hide from any prying eyes (I'm thinking inside the A's garage or in a very darkened parking lot at TL's). Knowing Usardog's scenario - I think the plastic bags were placed over Caylee within 24-36 hrs after death, while her little body then imprinted onto the trunk liner via pressure and trapped initial decomp fluid leakage (see sweat in heat above). Just like furniture marks in the carpet, the imprint staining was aided slightly in the decomp fluid to create this death shroud. Furthermore, bringing back to topic . . . I think KC placed the plastic bags containing Caylee into the Whitney laundry bag back at the A's garage - before she disposed of this baby girl near the home. Furthermore, I believe she drove to the dump site, because carrying 30 lbs of dead weight in the laundry bag would probably prove cumbersome and draw attention

 

[momtective]

I believe KC put Caylee into the trunk on Monday afternoon before KC went to Blockbuster with Tony, I'm thinking she placed a blanket in the trunk first as a pallet for Caylee. I think KC used the pallet in the trunk babysitter for many, many months and she had never had a mishap, I think she had always managed to take Caylee from the trunk before she woke up from a drugged state; This time however she and Tony were up late watching movies and...well you know. I believe they slept in late the following morning, past noon and the temperature was sweltering that day. By the time KC awoke and went for Caylee, she was already dead. I think KC probably just threw the blanket over her and immediately started trying to figure out what to do with Caylee's body. I'm thinking she rolled Caylee up in the blanket and pulled the trash bags over her body...head first. I'm not sure if she would have pulled the laundry bag over the feet first or over the head but I'm thinking it was all done pretty soon after Caylee died, because rigor would have set in within a few hours and the body would have been pretty hard to handle.

All just my opinion

 

[Solace]

What I do believe is that what we have found with very limited information, pales in comparison to what the SA actually have for evidence in this case. I do have to say that my own brain says her body must have come in contact with that trunk liner and was placed in the bags a couple of days later. Usardog's account of the shroud of turin on the concrete inside 2 plastic bags - I have to believe that story. Also, the concrete etching of the corpse that had been cleaned with an acidic cleaner helped to produce adipocere in the absense of a lot of moisture. I am really wondering if Caylee laid there just long enough to begin to purge liquids through her skin in a heated trunk (ie: think sweat).

Wen the initial purging is from the nose and the mouth and the subsequent purging happens later when the gasses build up and there is the second stage - that did not happen in the trunk an dthey can tell that from the fatty acids.

But initial purging did happen and it is from the nose and the mouth.

Apparently KC did not think about this, but that is not a surprise.

And who uses something like dryer fabric softeners to take the smell away. I guess I will not comment on the brain power of someone doing that.

 

[wenwe4]

I believe KC put Caylee into the trunk on Monday afternoon before KC went to Blockbuster with Tony, I'm thinking she placed a blanket in the trunk first as a pallet for Caylee. I think KC used the pallet in the trunk babysitter for many, many months and she had never had a mishap, I think she had always managed to take Caylee from the trunk before she woke up from a drugged state; This time however she and Tony were up late watching movies and...well you know. I believe they slept in late the following morning, past noon and the temperature was sweltering that day. By the time KC awoke and went for Caylee, she was already dead. I think KC probably just threw the blanket over her and immediately started trying to figure out what to do with Caylee's body. I'm thinking she rolled Caylee up in the blanket and pulled the trash bags over her body...head first. I'm not sure if she would have pulled the laundry bag over the feet first or over the head but I'm thinking it was all done pretty soon after Caylee died, because rigor would have set in within a few hours and the body would have been pretty hard to handle.

All just my opinion

BBM - by pallet do you mean like putting the blanket on the floor for a cushion beneath her? (sorry have not heard that term before). You do bring up a really great thought though. If the blanket is under Caylee's body - using it as a sling to help slip the body into the plastic bags would be much easier. Then putting that package into the canvass bag - just not sure when that all happened.

 

[pip]

Wen the initial purging is from the nose and the mouth and the subsequent purging happens later when the gasses build up and there is the second stage - that did not happen in the trunk an dthey can tell that from the fatty acids.

But initial purging did happen and it is from the nose and the mouth.

Apparently KC did not think about this, but that is not a surprise.

And who uses something like dryer fabric softeners to take the smell away. I guess I will not comment on the brain power of someone doing that.

How do you explain a completely detailed image of the body from head to toe from just oral and nasal purging? It had to be from tissue liquifying and purging. Stage 2 is 4-10 days post mortem, environmental factors such as heat affect the rate of decomposition. Something 'purged' other than nasopharyngeal to create the Shroud of Turin in that trunk...

 

[Solace]

How do you explain a completely detailed image of the body from head to toe from just oral and nasal purging?

I don't know. I am just going by the forensic report. The flies in the trunk are attracted to the initial purging - also someone brought up the fact that the body relaxes and there is also body fluids that are released the usual way. As I understand it, the second stage did not happen in the trunk.

But remember she is tiny Pip. There could be enough fluid to do this.

 

[countzero]

I would really be interested in reading joypath's take on this ..... oh joypath. .... where are ya gal .....

 

[Aedrys]

Seeing that pic of laundry bag just hurts my heart. I hadn't seen it for a long while...it makes me so mad! What did she think was going to happen when Caylee died? She could just ignore Caylee's decomposing body and it would just go away? I cannot fathom her thought process. And what does she do? Bag Caylee up and throw her out like last week's garbage...sometimes I forget the level of evil and coldness in this case, and seeing the laundry back brings it back hard like a punch to my gut...

I feel so sorry for the jury, who are going to see this and a lot more come trial time. God bless their souls...and God bless Caylee...

I'm sorry I can't contribute more. I just keep picturing what happened to that poor baby and it almost makes me cry...

 

[3doglady]

Seeing that pic of laundry bag just hurts my heart. I hadn't seen it for a long while...it makes me so mad! What did she think was going to happen when Caylee died? She could just ignore Caylee's decomposing body and it would just go away? I cannot fathom her thought process. And what does she do? Bag Caylee up and throw her out like last week's garbage...sometimes I forget the level of evil and coldness in this case, and seeing the laundry back brings it back hard like a punch to my gut...

I feel so sorry for the jury, who are going to see this and a lot more come trial time. God bless their souls...and God bless Caylee...

I'm sorry I can't contribute more. I just keep picturing what happened to that poor baby and it almost makes me cry...

I agree. Those jurors are going to have trouble sleeping at night.

 

[Tulessa]

I am on page 115 of Dr. Vass's report. Fascinating, but my eyes are killing me.

 

[pip]

Interesting points in Dr. Vass' depo released today. Regarding the squirrel test, he said he wanted to leave the squirrel to 'decompose long enough to stain the carpet'. And regarding intervals of decomposition, he states he does not guess time of deaths, just places them in a range. So I guess if he required the squirrel to decompose long enough to purge a stain on the carpet, we are talking about at least early stage 2? Just trying to relate this all to decomp stain in the trunk and stage of decomp. I just can't see how a complete image could appear in stage 1 alone. Stage 2 is 4-10 days.

 

[ef9474]

Interesting points in Dr. Vass' depo released today. Regarding the squirrel test, he said he wanted to leave the squirrel to 'decompose long enough to stain the carpet'. And regarding intervals of decomposition, he states he does not guess time of deaths, just places them in a range. So I guess if he required the squirrel to decompose long enough to purge a stain on the carpet, we are talking about at least early stage 2? Just trying to relate this all to decomp stain in the trunk and stage of decomp. I just can't see how a complete image could appear in stage 1 alone. Stage 2 is 4-10 days.

If by some chance Caylee's body was frozen, or refrigerated after death, that would possibly explain the imprint and the stain in the trunk. Refrigeration or freezing would slow decomp. If the body was placed in the trunk after being frozen/refrigerated it would sweat, and begin to thaw and decompose. I found it interesting, that Jose asked Dr. Vass if the squirrel was frozen or fresh and how that affected decomp. Dr. Vass stated the squirrel was frozen. Makes me wonder why Biaz asked him those questions.

 

[momtective]

BBM - by pallet do you mean like putting the blanket on the floor for a cushion beneath her? (sorry have not heard that term before). You do bring up a really great thought though. If the blanket is under Caylee's body - using it as a sling to help slip the body into the plastic bags would be much easier. Then putting that package into the canvass bag - just not sure when that all happened.

Yes exactly, here in the South we call it a pallet...and many of us put our little kids down to nap on a pallet, usually a quilt or sheet folded in 1/4 or a baby sized blanket layed out on the floor. I think that's what KC put in the trunk for Caylee and I think she had been doing it for over a year or atleast since Christine stopped watching Caylee.

Just my opinion