2010.05.11 - Casey Anthony Death Penalty Motions Hearing

[suzihawk]

Guys, I just finished reading a lot of newspapers about gender bias, women, and bra burning. Also, I have a degree in basket weaving. I'm feeling pretty good about my chances to testify as an expert witness.

Hang on just one second there, sister. Exactly what type of reed do you use for your weaving? I want to make damn sure you're qualified.

 

[KeyboardCat]

Regarding the gender bias:

Defense argument seems weak. The number of female offenders currently on death row is negligible, so saying she is eligible for the death penalty simply because she is female flies in the face of logic.

However I do believe the fact that she was Caylee's mother does play a part in why the state decided to seek the death penalty. A mother is a life giver, a care taker. A mother holds and cradles a crying child. A mother can kiss away the hurt of a scraped knee. A mother feeds an infant from her own body. Its a scary thought to know that the lotto of life could have placed any one of us into the arms of a Casey Anthony at birth. Our sons could marry a Casey Anthony. A Casey Anthony could give birth to our grandchildren. Looking back at the tenderness and delicacy of childhood, its a dangerous thought to entertain.

 

[RainyGirl]

Who are all the extra women behind the defense table? Geez, everyday it's more.

Those are Andrea's ladies- in- waiting - they came with her and they'll leave with her.

bbm. LMAO Amil!!!!! I wonder what "assignments" Andrea's ladies-in-waiting are engaged in this fine afternoon/evening????? :waitasec:

ETA: Borrowed that pesky crystal ball and I am seeing cloudy visions of furious ladies typing on laptops.......

 

[Astraea]

No fighting!

It is perfectly obvious why the judge allowed the defense to use an undisclosed witness--because the judge was going to deny the "gender bias" motion anyway due to extreme lack of merit, and did not want to give the defense an appeal ticket in the process.

In AZ courts is it your experience that judges sometimes allow witnesses that are undisclosed? I find this slightly confusing as AL and JA both agree that JA knew she was going to testify. I hate to go OT AZ, but are you a qualified death penalty lawyer? I hate to ask which area of law you practise, especially if it makes you feel uncomfortable in any way, but I cant help but wonder if it is related to criminal law

 

[Turnadot]

Hang on just one second there, sister. Exactly what type of reed do you use for your weaving? I want to make damn sure you're qualified.

I'm behind, or can't handle the technology of reeds, quite frankly.

 

[ecs5298]

bbm. LMAO Amil!!!!! I wonder what "assignments" Andrea's ladies-in-waiting are engaged in this fine afternoon/evening????? :waitasec:

Probably get on the blogs and try and spin the defense fantasy!

Just my humble opinion as always! :innocent:

 

[Astraea]

I would start a thread, but have never done so. I was hoping that AZLawyer or Hornsby or another verifed lawyer could lay out once and for all what the job of the SA actually IS as I am realizing that many have some differing opinions on that subject. If there is a thread about this already(maybe in the main forum somewhere?) I would truly appreciate some direction there. I am figuring it will be different from my locale, so dont want to comment until I am certain Thanks in advance and sorry for the OT

 

[marspiter]

Guys, I just finished reading a lot of newspapers about gender bias, women, and bra burning. Also, I have a degree in basket weaving. I'm feeling pretty good about my chances to testify as an expert witness.

Yes but are you certified to do your basket weaving under water? :crazy:

I did some research on women and the death penalty earlier in the thread that highlights the rarity of females on death row and executed.....hey maybe JA can call me as a rebuttal expert. I'll work for a box of Florida oranges.

 

[AZlawyer]

In AZ courts is it your experience that judges sometimes allow witnesses that are undisclosed? I find this slightly confusing as AL and JA both agree that JA knew she was going to testify. I hate to go OT AZ, but are you a qualified death penalty lawyer? I hate to ask which area of law you practise, especially if it makes you feel uncomfortable in any way, but I cant help but wonder if it is related to criminal law

My only criminal experience is on appeal, except for one death penalty case I worked on during the penalty phase and creating a database for the Arizona Capital Representation Project of every holding on every death penalty case in Arizona (which unfortunately required that I read every one of them). I am a trial lawyer, however, and have criminal lawyers in the family.

You seem to have 2 questions about the undisclosed witness: (1) was she "really" undisclosed, and (2) in AZ, do judges "sometimes" allow undisclosed witnesses. I can't answer #1. As for #2, I have never seen it happen in AZ--except where one witness is essentially a substitute for another on some minor issue like "yes, these are our business records"--but we have some pretty extensive disclosure rules.

In this case, I think the judge would have let that witness in even if she had no qualifications whatsoever and had been disclosed at 9:00 am that morning, because he did not want any appeal issue related to the "gender bias" motion.

 

[joypath]

This expert witness appeared to be vetted as an expert rather quickly to the minimal satisfaction of the Court. (of course, that was after Andrea requested that briefest CV from her, neglecting to honor us with the areas of academic degree awards EXCEPT Harvard Law!). Completely concur with AZlawyer that HHJP was entertaining the defense option to present the witness, perhaps as a "Hail Mary pass", since the defendant in no way resembles Ave Maria in her blue dress! and eliminate any taint of "appealism".
Having been thru the "so you want to be an expert in my court" processs, this lady got off LIGHTLY and now has a "feather" for her resume! However, she really should think thrice over proffering a video copy with her CV! (but that's just my silly :twocents

 

[Lanie]

BBM

Wow. Had no clue. I have worked as a paralegal for the past 13 years, including assisting at trials and arbitrations. I guess ya learn something new every day.

Thank you for the education. Are you an attorney?

You obviously have never watched Perry Mason. He does this all the time, and if the prosecutor even bothers to object, he is overruled. :crazy::crazy::crazy:

On a serious note, I will have to look into this more carefully, as it was my understanding 'surprise witnesses' without a compelling reason are at best frowned upon in real life. IMO, if you turned the situation around and it was a prosecutor pulling this kind of stunt, it might be grounds for an appeal.

 

[Chiquita71]

Hello WS


I understand having sympathy for Cindy. For Casey. I have a bleeding heart. But, then I find myself having to pull my sympathy back. This post is my thoughts on this subject and not intended as a 'point to others' to prove a side or anything...I have no intention of dissing a loving emotion with my post. The world needs more love, not less, of course! :blowkiss:

I don't want Casey to get the DP. But I also wouldn't argue against the DP. I want violent crime to stop happening so that we don't have to even discuss the DP. I am happy I am not the one making those types of decisions and so it truly is "my opinion only", regarding the DP and I don't judge people for being pro DP.

I don't hate Casey or Cindy(I don't hate anybody), although I feel hate at times for them. But it is their behavior I hate. As I start to feel compassion for either Cindy or Casey, I think back over choice after choice each was given to take another path. Cindy was told repeatedly by LE that she should stop talking to the media, to anyone about the case. She refused, and defiantly did the exact opposite of what she was told would be best for her granddaughter, daughter and herself.

IMHO, MN quit representing the Anthonys because of Cindy's behavior. He saw the damage she was doing. YM tried to help Casey too, IMHO. He told her she was giving them no choice but to think she was a monster. I know how he feels because that is how I feel too. Like they have given me no choice but to think Casey is a monster. I hate that.

When I ask the question in my posts, "if Cindy has said she knows Casey is not lying, if JB says he has proof that Casey is innocent why hasn't Jose come forward with that proof and what is Cindy doing in the bathroom and not out looking for Zanny?" I am asking for real. I am asking out of my sympathy for this family that was so messed up they let Caylee get taken away from them, I am desperately wanting to understand and have been.

IMO, it's because Cindy does know that Casey killed Caylee and just like her daughter she will not admit it. It is easier to go along with the lie, and that is what might get Casey the DP, IMHO: not anything else.

I can see that when YM(LE), while at Universal studios were giving Casey an out, asking of it was an accident. They allude for her: a young mother, not paying attention, distracted, her mother is hard on her about the baby...terrible accident...life can go on but you have to tell us what happened or you give us no choice but to think you are a monster.(All paraphrased).

But, Casey couldn't admit accident because they would ask where she had put Caylee and when they found her, they would find the duct tape and because Casey didn't know the condition Caylee's body was in-even more evidence she was murdered. Everyone would know she had done it purposely. So, she had to stick with her 'story(s)' and hope Caylee was never found. When Caylee's remains were discovered, she truly had to continue with the story, even changing it up in her recent letters.

Cindy made Casey have the baby. Then she ignored Casey's pregnancy(and that is ignoring Caylee too, big time IMHO). Cindy even lied to her mother and father when point blank asked if Casey was pregnant. RP, tried telling Cindy exactly what I would have been saying, but Cindy attacked him. I find it difficult to reconcile caring one wit about money when your granddaughter is missing and then found murdered, yet evidence of Cindy and George's greed abound. Cruises were taken, adornments have been purchased and meals have been eaten all from money that came because Caylee was murdered.

I want to have sympathy, and if I saw Cindy in person I would treat her with respect(although I understand the people that scream things at her too) but I would be saying to myself, "how tragic you are, I am so glad I am not you. you would not do things my way and I would not do things your way. And I am glad about that for me and sorry for you."

I understand those that feel no sympathy for Casey and Cindy and I understand those that do: I feel both ways but mostly I feel they created this for themselves and that is what I have sympathy for. The idea that a baby brought out the worst in this family is evident which is telling in itself, and I have a conclusion that says Casey and Cindy would not have sympathy for others in their position.

I do feel sorry for them if they are just realizing what all their choices and jealously and fighting has gotten them but I wonder if either of them will ever take any responsibility? (Get ready to yell at me) I would even say "let her go" if the whole family would admit to everyone everything that happened. We would all know who they were, and Casey would not be allowed to be a mother ever again. That's not going to happen, so I will stop there, you get the point.

Whatever Casey's fate, I feel it has already been sealed. We are just waiting to see what it is...

FWIW: Not AL, nor anyone could sway or convince me regarding the DP. It's not something anyone else could convince me of because it is a "personal" issue. Which is why I wouldn't try to sway anyone else to my thinking. I guess she has swayed some juries? I have not read the threads regarding AL or the DP and since we have reached that subject with this hearing, I will.

:cow:

 

[AZlawyer]

I would start a thread, but have never done so. I was hoping that AZLawyer or Hornsby or another verifed lawyer could lay out once and for all what the job of the SA actually IS as I am realizing that many have some differing opinions on that subject. If there is a thread about this already(maybe in the main forum somewhere?) I would truly appreciate some direction there. I am figuring it will be different from my locale, so dont want to comment until I am certain Thanks in advance and sorry for the OT

I would be happy to address this, but I'm not sure what you're asking. Wouldn't the job of the SA be the same in any jurisdiction?

 

[justbeachy]

accidentally hit post

 

[Lanie]

bbm. LMAO Amil!!!!! I wonder what "assignments" Andrea's ladies-in-waiting are engaged in this fine afternoon/evening????? :waitasec:

ETA: Borrowed that pesky crystal ball and I am seeing cloudy visions of furious ladies typing on laptops.......

And all this time I have scoffed at psychics. You are making a believer out of me...

 

[eaglemom]

I *think* one of the sticking points about this witness today is not so much that she was allowed but is that JB specifically said in court on 4/30/10 http://www.wftv.com/video/23319255/index.html at about 19:53 that he would notice everyone about which motions were going to require evidence or witness testimony (and as I understand which witnesses would be testifying).

I agree that JP allowed the witness because he already knew his case law in this instance but was willing to hear what this expert had to say. However, given that the SAO didn't even have the CV on the expert and defense had agreed in court to provide notice previously; it was a 'low blow' so to speak.

I am equally as certain that attornies deal with this all the time and it isn't anything unusual and JA was well up to the task. For those of us not in the law world it just seemed not 'quite cricket' since JB had stated in open court they would provide notice.

Not to mention that while this lady has a law degree and has taught for a number of years, her research has not been as 'in-depth' as I would have expected or as 'scientific'. Normally when an 'expert' takes the stand in a high profile case in any field there is some scientific standard and that did not come out on the stand (and it certainly should have if AL was trying to have this woman as an expert in the field). I don't doubt this professor is highly credible and has done research it just wasn't as well represented as it could/should have been and that was AL's job to bring that out.

Obviously I am only me and this is my opinion only.

 

[Solange82200]

I think the expert witness made a lot of good points. I just don't think it applies to this case. Like the defense says, this case is "different". The big issue is the fact that no one found out Caylee was missing for 31 days. Except for Casey, who says that she was missing. Instead of looking for her or worrying, she ditched her car, her one method of transportation (why would you do that if you need to look for your child?) and went to clubs, got drunk, and danced, and entered a hot body contest on stage. Like Ms. Burdick said, it goes to disprove that Casey was worried and looking for Caylee.

She wasn't. And the pictures (along with the tattoo, etc.) prove that she wasn't. I respect the expert witness and think her findings are interesting. She has a point. But I just don't that that is what is going on here....

 

[steadychick]

BBM

Actually, I, for one, do not find that absurd at all. Traces of chloroform were found in the trunk of the car Casey used, and also with a syringe found near the remains. LE, the state, nor the defense, however, have been able to turn up a single trace of the nanny.

And I, for one, would not be the least bit surprised to see chloroform turn up once again in this case, i.e. perhaps one of Casey's friends will testify that they had some, or that they heard Casey talk about or saw her use it. My opinion only, but wouldn't be surprised. The defense seems to be on a hunting expedition regarding what aggravating factors the State plans on using. Could be that they know something about the use of chloroform, and are trying to figure out if the State also knows about it.

 

[justbeachy]

In regards to the relevance of Casey's partying, drinking and general shenanigans, for me personally it is important to separate them into two categories: before Caylee went "missing" and after.

I absolutely think that Casey's activities after Caylee disappeared (was murdered) are relevant. Each and every step she took in those days should be picked apart (IMO).

However, I think it is a slippery slope to judge any mother on their activities prior to an incident (barring a situation where a child is completely uncared for and the mother is neglecting/abusing the child). I say this because, as a mom of 2 wonderful kids, I "routinely" go out with my girlfriends. It's called "Moms Night Out" and just by name alone it implies that all the attendees are moms. Are we scantily clad? Sometimes. Are we drinking? Usually. Are we dancing? Sometimes. But does that make us "bad" mothers? I certainly hope not!

If someone took snapshots of our lives during these MNO events, they would see moms (gasp!) partying. There was even one instance where the bar we were at happened to have an old stripper pole. Needless to say, we took a lot of pics of us being silly on that pole. God help us if someone ever uses those photos to show that any one of us is a “bad” mom. If someone can show a specific time when a mom (Casey or anyone) was out partying and her child was not cared for, I would think that instance would be relevant. But, if a child is being cared for (by a babysitter, father, etc) then I think moms should be able to have some fun.

Let me be clear: I am not condoning Casey's behavior while Caylee was "missing" and she was "looking" for her. Absolutely not. But, if Casey was wearing a short dress, being drunk and partying prior to Caylee's disappearance AND Caylee was in the hands of a capable adult, then I think her activities (as long as they were all legal) are irrelevant.

 

[mitzi]

I felt bad for Cindy today. Yeah, I know she's lied her butt off and it's disgusting; yes, but to sit through that death penalty hearing, with her child's life at stake must have been pure torture. As a mother, my heart hurt for the position she was in today.

I find it too difficult to drum up any sympathy for Cindy after all that she has done. Maybe I could if every other day, she would sit on the state side of the courtroom, and show some tears for Caylee. Or even if just ONCE she sat on the state side. What kind of "loving" grandmother would give not one moment of caring about her own grandaughter who was so heinously murdered by KC?

Even dear Caylee's memorial was not one bit about Caylee. It's unfathomable to me. I feel nothing for Cindy or George.