2010.06.28 - Kyron's Dad files for divorce and restraining order

[stmarysmead]

Yes, the courtesy copy sent to the judge, which is available before the court had time to stamp the filed copy.

If you'll start reading at line 18 of the Motion, you'll see Houze at his finest in working for his client and for following the law:

http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/hormanfiling.pdf

(You can also get to the actual Motion by clicking on the link in the oregonlive story--it's in the article in about the second para.)

So this is Houze at his finest.

Houze admits that the restraining order TERMINATED all contact between Mother and daughter...then he gets legally huffy that Kaine did not go soft and decide to let Baby K be reunited with Baby K. anyway. Huh?

It was his right! The court TERMINATED all contact. Sorry that Terri wasn't able to circumvent the order...just because she wanted it. How is that anything negative against Kaine. The court TERMINATED all contact. Period.

All these words like "vicious"," vilify", inflame" look silly because it was not any words of Kaine or his attorney in their legal filing that "inflamed" the public...it was Terri's OWN words. Her own actions. Her own callousness in the context of a missing child who loved her. I can't even recall one sentence Kaine's attorney wrote. She did not INFLAME me. It is Terri who is the authoress of her own "vilification."

The idea that these were highly private exchanges is ludicrous. This woman had already been the target of a police sting. She bought Bat phones because she knew she was under surveillance. She spoke outside the house and her friend armed herself with a fire extinguisher. It is in this context of KNOWING she was under surveillance that she indulged herself with these words and "photos." This is like saying someone who strips and "streaks" across the field at a Super Bowl game. was involved in a private activity and had no idea it might be televised. If Terri thought she was sexting under a veil of something like CIA secrecy...that is another reason to question her judgment to be around a child.

I submit that since the fact that the ongoing investigation(S)...(note the use of plural)....are a detriment to Terri testifying and addressing the concerns of CHILD MURDER and MURDER for HIRE...but then they must be considered a detriment to her seeing Baby K as well. Suppose Baby K saw Kyron beaten to death by her Mother...supposed she viewed a long, slow, horrific death of her Brother inflicted on him by her Mother...the sight of Terri may well traumatize her...it might cause her flashbacks, fear, emotional distress.

Since Terri cannot satisfy the Court that Baby K has not been subjected to anything like that...that Baby K, in essence, would not have something akin to post traumatic stress disorder from remembering the sound of her mothers voice mixed with Kyron's screams...then, let's side with Baby K.

Terri is very good at coping. We saw that in the sexting. She's grooving right along.

She also has some Mr. Deep Pockets funding any legal games she wants to play. She can try again when there is certainty that this Baby will not be emotionally harmed by the memories her Mother's face might invoke.

Mr. Houze should defer all his legal angst and outrage until we know FOR SURE what Baby K watched, heard and endured that day her brother disappeared.

Will he vouch with his professional reputation that no emotional harm would come to this Baby? Will he state to the public that we can hold HIM responsible?

Baby K is not expendable. One child is already gone.


Edited to add...If the choice is between Terri's rights and the Baby's mental and physical health...and Terri cannot and will not do ANYTHING to assure the court that-baby K did not witness the horrific death of her brother at the hands of her Mother...Houze is saying...hey..let's take a chance with Baby K!!!! What the heck!

 

[ami]

The sad part is, one day baby K will grow older and want to know about her mother. What if it's determined that Terri had nothing to do with Kyron's disappearance? What will K think about her father's attempts to smear her mother and ruin her reputation? Or is he planning to lie to her whenever she asks him about her mother?
None of this is helping to find Kyron. If anything, it has alienated Terri more and ensured that she will probably NEVER tell LE anything that would help find him. Kaine would have been smarter if he would have just quietly left with the baby and kept all this other stuff to himself until AFTER this case was resolved.... or at least kept it on the back burner for awhile until things die down. JMHO, but he has only made matters worse, and surely these legal wranglings are NOT in K's best interests, but rather they are in Kaine's best interests.
Not to mention that he has completely jeapordized Terri's right to a fair trial.
Poor little Kyron... seems he's been forgotten in all this mess.

If Terri is cleared, then baby K will not have to ask about her mother when she grows up because her mother will be part of her life. I'm assuming Kaine would tell her what appears to be the truth - that he did his best to protect baby K using all of the information he had, and all the information the police had, at the time. Why would he have to lie? So far he's reporting the facts as he knows them, and even if Terri is cleared of abduction/murder suspicions, those facts (that she sent the sexts, that she claimed to have failed the LDTs, that LE informed him of the attempted murder for hire) remain. It's not pretty. Her actions and the suspicions are not pretty. But that's the reality of what is happening and the reality of what baby K's mother is involved with.

Also, I don't see these legal wranglings as being in Kaine's best interests - how could they be? What does it benefit Kaine to pay his attorneys for every motion filed, every court date, every meeting? What does it benefit him having his dirty laundry aired in public? He doesn't strike me as an exhibitionist or masochist - my guess is he wishes he never had to do a single one of these things.

Also, IMO, no action of Kaine's would get Terri to talk or not talk. The best he can hope for is to keep his remaining child safe and hope evidence leads to Kyron's recovery.

 

[ami]

Of course, if Kaine managed to get her parental rights severed/terminated--then she'd have no right to visitation anywhere. But, again, the case is not there yet. Isn't LE still looking for a possible adult standing by the white truck in the school parking lot? Last I read.

I don't know, as the only adults they've asked about were those whose pictures appeared on the fliers - Terri and Dede.

 

[Kimster]

Just read the motion. What a tragedy all the way around!!! Terri's team is trying to keep the visitation issue and the possible criminal issue separate, which is exactly what attorneys should do.

HOWEVER

I've also been following Zahra's case. I'm reading the outrage from our members about how nothing was done to save Zahra. I know these are entirely different cases including completely different people, but IF TH was allowed visitation and IF something happened to baby K - (even if she wasn't harmed physically, but harmed emotionally) - what would we say then?

Whether TH is guilty or not, KH feels certain she is and if I were KH, I would be doing exactly what he is doing to protect my child.

None of this is surprising to me in the least. But it just makes my heart more heavy knowing it isn't leading to finding Kyron.

 

[cluciano63]

Just read the motion. What a tragedy all the way around!!! Terri's team is trying to keep the visitation issue and the possible criminal issue separate, which is exactly what attorneys should do.

HOWEVER

I've also been following Zahra's case. I'm reading the outrage from our members about how nothing was done to save Zahra. I know these are entirely different cases including completely different people, but IF TH was allowed visitation and IF something happened to baby K - (even if she wasn't harmed physically, but harmed emotionally) - what would we say then?

Whether TH is guilty or not, KH feels certain she is and if I were KH, I would be doing exactly what he is doing to protect my child.

None of this is surprising to me in the least. But it just makes my heart more heavy knowing it isn't leading to finding Kyron.

This last sentence is what I was trying to say last night. I know certgain things need to be done in the civil courts right now, and it is ugly. But I am convinced that nothing about Kyron will result from any of this. I hope LE does not expect anything in the way of evidence to come out. It is clear that Terri is not going to talk-ever, I would guess. Kaine will get his divrorce and custody, as he should, and Kyron will remain...missing.

 

[gwenabob]

Is the implication here that Rackner and Kaine sent all of this information to the paper and the news outlets?

sbm

I am not sure where you are getting this idea. Court filings, unless sealed by a judge, are available to the public, including the press. I imagine, no, I KNOW, there are reporters assigned to the courthouse who watch for interesting filings so they can report on them. At a time like this, with a high profile case like this, they are checking every day, maybe twice a day. They just have to ask and pay a copy fee. By now, the court clerks probably automatically make copies as soon as they come in.

 

[Kimster]

As these motions come out, I keep hoping a clue to Kyron's disappearance will emerge. So far, nothing.

 

[gwenabob]

[/B]

This last sentence is what I was trying to say last night. I know certgain things need to be done in the civil courts right now, and it is ugly. But I am convinced that nothing about Kyron will result from any of this. I hope LE does not expect anything in the way of evidence to come out. It is clear that Terri is not going to talk-ever, I would guess. Kaine will get his divrorce and custody, as he should, and Kyron will remain...missing.

But it won't be due to Kaine's lack of trying. We cannot blame Kaine in any of this. He has done everything he can do. If Kyron is missing, it is because Terri engineered it that way.

The idea that it is up to Kaine to figure out the "proper" way to get Terri to talk is another way of blaming the victim. Kind of like telling a beaten woman she should just stop doing whatever it is that "makes her husband beat her."

 

[SurfieTX]

sbm

I am not sure where you are getting this idea. Court filings, unless sealed by a judge, are available to the public, including the press. I imagine, no, I KNOW, there are reporters assigned to the courthouse who watch for interesting filings so they can report on them. At a time like this, with a high profile case like this, they are checking every day, maybe twice a day. They just have to ask and pay a copy fee. By now, the court clerks probably automatically make copies as soon as they come in.

That is what is puzzling to me and why I asked. They as well as most legal folks are well aware of the public's access to court filings. Why did Houze and Bunch include that statement? What did they hope to achieve?

 

[stmarysmead]

He took that tack, imo, because one of the most significant factors in making a final custody determination once the abatement is over will be whether a parent will interfere with the other's relationship with the child -- or at least not foster it. He's just setting up that argument, and we can expect to hear more about it in the future. Again, jmoo.

Until Kaine can be sure "the other parent" is not both a murderess and a attempted murderess....shouldn't he "interfere?" Till he knows that Terri has not made his other child vanish, shouldn't he do everything he can to assure his only surviving child is not at risk?

Does our legal system really believe those are "non-factors?"

 

[stmarysmead]

That is what is puzzling to me and why I asked. They as well as most legal folks are well aware of the public's access to court filings. Why did Houze and Bunch include that statement? What did they hope to achieve?

Spin.

 

[gwenabob]

That is what is puzzling to me and why I asked. They as well as most legal folks are well aware of the public's access to court filings. Why did Houze and Bunch include that statement? What did they hope to achieve?

I think he was hoping to muzzle Rackner and intimidate her into keeping the family dirt secret. He wants Kaine to continue with the "everything was fine, Terri was a model mother" tact. Kaine tried that, even gave Terri an "out" with the post partem depression excuse. Still didn't work. Now Kaine is fed up and telling all, and Houze and Bunch don't like it. Too bad. The truth is the truth and it deserves to be told.

 

[citigirl]

I just read the motion, too. The assumption on which it is based, discussed in the first paragraph, would be the undoing of the entire document in my state. In my state, when there is a restraining order in place, the petitioning party cannot agree with the respondent to overlook the restraining order when it is in effect. As a practical matter, though, this happens all the time. The consequence for this is that when the petitioner tries to reinstate the restraining order later, after another incident or event, the judge is likely not to grant it without significant evidence. In my state, TH would have to seek contact with her daughter through the courts, not directly with Kaine. I don't know if this is the situation in Oregon, however. I imagine a judge would find it frustrating, though, to have his restraining order violated.

I really am not comfortable with some of the things Kaine included in his affadavit, but I have read other divorce proceedings, and things like this, although irrelevant, are included all the time. I think Kaine has given Houze some great leverage for a change in venue by releasing these texts. I wonder how the D.A. feels about Kaine's affadavit.

I'm sorry, I just cannot buy that it will violate Terri's constitutional rights to ask for visitation from the courts. To me, that's what she is doing now. Why the wait? Houze and Bunch have no response for that. I think they are trying to say that they used informal means first, by asking Kaine directly, but this motion said Kaine consistently said no. So they really have no argument to justify this long wait. Either TH had some bad legal advice to wait from Bunch and Houze, or she just doesn't care if she sees the baby or not--and is doing this because of the public reaction to her indifference. The answer seems obvious to me.

 

[citigirl]

sbm

I am not sure where you are getting this idea. Court filings, unless sealed by a judge, are available to the public, including the press. I imagine, no, I KNOW, there are reporters assigned to the courthouse who watch for interesting filings so they can report on them. At a time like this, with a high profile case like this, they are checking every day, maybe twice a day. They just have to ask and pay a copy fee. By now, the court clerks probably automatically make copies as soon as they come in.

I agree with SurfieTx. I read that sentence as an attack an Rackner for releasing this information to the public.

 

[cluciano63]

But it won't be due to Kaine's lack of trying. We cannot blame Kaine in any of this. He has done everything he can do. If Kyron is missing, it is because Terri engineered it that way.

The idea that it is up to Kaine to figure out the "proper" way to get Terri to talk is another way of blaming the victim. Kind of like telling a beaten woman she should just stop doing whatever it is that "makes her husband beat her."

I don't understand why you think I am blaming Kaine...I am just distraught over this case, and fear it will never be truly solved. I am sorry Kaine needs to deal with this civil case right now, but of course he does. I just feel in my heart it will not lead to the slightest clue about Kyron, that's all. And wish there was something new in this case that did not involve the divorce, but was about Kyron. I'm only stating my feelings...which is what we sometimes do here.

 

[grandmaj]

"Ask Me No Questions, I'll Tell You No Lies: How to Survive Being Interviewed, Interrogated, Questioned, Quizzed, Sweated, Grilled." It is a book!

Also a song recorded by Bing Crosby and a jump rope song someone posted a few days ago.

This is what Terri's attorneys are saying. Don't ask my client any questions, but give us what we want.

In the short run if they prevail Terri would get short sessions observed by a third party.

If Terri is charged with Kyron's disappearance it would be used to point to her character by pointing out how "loving" she is with her child. The person who is the third party who is supervising these visits could well be called to testify as to what those interactions were.

How did K react to my client? Did they bond well? What was the interaction between them? Was K afraid of my client? Did my client appear to love her child? What types of things did they do when they visited? ................

I am afraid this is being used more now to soften Terri's image than for the reasons of a mother wishing to see her child.

Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies. Houze is playing games with the legal system by not wanting to go through the process of visitation and parenting that any other couple would have to pursue. Terri continues to not answer any questions. IMO Based on that alone she should be denied access to another child.

Houze in one breath "The sole issue that needs to be addressed in Mother's motion is whether there are appropriate, supervised circumstances under which Kiara can be reunited with her mother."

So none of what Kaine said under his deposition should matter according to Houze? The two issues are separate?

But yet Houze is using the argument that he can't allow his client to testify because of the other issues? :waitasec:

Terri wants to be reunited with K. but her freedom and not disclosing what happened to Kyron is more important than proving she is a fit mother and trustworthy?

I don't get it at all. IMO Terri is using the court system to continue to inflict her pain on Kaine. She is saying, I know what you want and I'm not going to tell you, but I want my daughter and you should roll over and just give in to me.

 

[grandmaj]

sbm

I am not sure where you are getting this idea. Court filings, unless sealed by a judge, are available to the public, including the press. I imagine, no, I KNOW, there are reporters assigned to the courthouse who watch for interesting filings so they can report on them. At a time like this, with a high profile case like this, they are checking every day, maybe twice a day. They just have to ask and pay a copy fee. By now, the court clerks probably automatically make copies as soon as they come in.

Well if it is? I guess we could question how one news agency got this motion after hours last night and not the others ya know?

Edited to add so could we also question Houze about this matter? I agree it is like Houze is questioning Rackner but should we now question how this one paper got this news first? Even if Rackner didn't release this to the public Houze wants us to believe she did I think.

 

[pinktoes]

So this is Houze at his finest.

Houze admits that the restraining order TERMINATED all contact between Mother and daughter...then he gets legally huffy that Kaine did not go soft and decide to let Baby K be reunited with Baby K. anyway. Huh?

It was his right! The court TERMINATED all contact. Sorry that Terri wasn't able to circumvent the order...just because she wanted it. How is that anything negative against Kaine. The court TERMINATED all contact. Period.

All these words like "vicious"," vilify", inflame" look silly because it was not any words of Kaine or his attorney in their legal filing that "inflamed" the public...it was Terri's OWN words. Her own actions. Her own callousness in the context of a missing child who loved her. I can't even recall one sentence Kaine's attorney wrote. She did not INFLAME me. It is Terri who is the authoress of her own "vilification."

The idea that these were highly private exchanges is ludicrous. This woman had already been the target of a police sting. She bought Bat phones because she knew she was under surveillance. She spoke outside the house and her friend armed herself with a fire extinguisher. It is in this context of KNOWING she was under surveillance that she indulged herself with these words and "photos." This is like saying someone who strips and "streaks" across the field at a Super Bowl game. was involved in a private activity and had no idea it might be televised. If Terri thought she was sexting under a veil of something like CIA secrecy...that is another reason to question her judgment to be around a child.

I submit that since the fact that the ongoing investigation(S)...(note the use of plural)....are a detriment to Terri testifying and addressing the concerns of CHILD MURDER and MURDER for HIRE...but then they must be considered a detriment to her seeing Baby K as well. Suppose Baby K saw Kyron beaten to death by her Mother...supposed she viewed a long, slow, horrific death of her Brother inflicted on him by her Mother...the sight of Terri may well traumatize her...it might cause her flashbacks, fear, emotional distress.

Since Terri cannot satisfy the Court that Baby K has not been subjected to anything like that...that Baby K, in essence, would not have something akin to post traumatic stress disorder from remembering the sound of her mothers voice mixed with Kyron's screams...then, let's side with Baby K.

Terri is very good at coping. We saw that in the sexting. She's grooving right along.

She also has some Mr. Deep Pockets funding any legal games she wants to play. She can try again when there is certainty that this Baby will not be emotionally harmed by the memories her Mother's face might invoke.

Mr. Houze should defer all his legal angst and outrage until we know FOR SURE what Baby K watched, heard and endured that day her brother disappeared.

Will he vouch with his professional reputation that no emotional harm would come to this Baby? Will he state to the public that we can hold HIM responsible?

Baby K is not expendable. One child is already gone.


Edited to add...If the choice is between Terri's rights and the Baby's mental and physical health...and Terri cannot and will not do ANYTHING to assure the court that-baby K did not witness the horrific death of her brother at the hands of her Mother...Houze is saying...hey..let's take a chance with Baby K!!!! What the heck!

When I said "at his finest" I meant doing what he is known for doing to defend/mitigate sentences for his clients. His expertise is particularly in procedural arguments, and in sticking to the letter of the law.

I am not a lawyer. I think some of the issues you raised might be better addressed by one of the lawyers here. Esp. regarding the admission of evidence in this civil case, how it was obtained, and the teasing out of the legalities here with a civil case and a criminal investigation that are intertwined factually.

 

[pinktoes]

@st.marysmead:

Here's a MSM article that mentions a bit of how Houze strategizes:

http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story.php?story_id=17983

 

[human]

The sad part is, one day baby K will grow older and want to know about her mother. What if it's determined that Terri had nothing to do with Kyron's disappearance? What will K think about her father's attempts to smear her mother and ruin her reputation? Or is he planning to lie to her whenever she asks him about her mother?
None of this is helping to find Kyron. If anything, it has alienated Terri more and ensured that she will probably NEVER tell LE anything that would help find him. Kaine would have been smarter if he would have just quietly left with the baby and kept all this other stuff to himself until AFTER this case was resolved.... or at least kept it on the back burner for awhile until things die down. JMHO, but he has only made matters worse, and surely these legal wranglings are NOT in K's best interests, but rather they are in Kaine's best interests.
Not to mention that he has completely jeapordized Terri's right to a fair trial.
Poor little Kyron... seems he's been forgotten in all this mess.

1. Kaine is entitled to divorce TH. For whatever reason he chooses. It is none of our business why he wants to divorce her, and if it wasn't for the fact that Kyron is missing, hardly anyone in the world would know about or be interested in his divorce. We are merely voyeurs in his life.

2. If Kaine does not divorce her, he would still be married to her. If she is brought up on criminal charges, and it appears that even her lawyers think that she will be, who do you think would be responsible for her million dollar defense? If not more money than that? How much is Casey Anthony at now?