2011.03.24 - Air Sample Expert Testimony

[katydid23]

The chloroformed soaked rag wouldn't have to be over Caylee's mouth or nose. A chloroform saturated rag/blanket/pull-up diaper anywhere CLOSE to Caylee's face would turn the Pontiac car trunk into a death chamber.

Nowbere could KC find ANY site, not one, on how to use chloroform as a babysitter. You also do not research "neck-breaking" in addition to "how to make chloroform" IF your goal is finding a babysitter. The search for "neck-breaking" was done in the same session as the search for "how to make chloroform".

How to euthanize with chloroform is all over the internet. You WOULD also research "neck-breaking" if your goal was putting something/someone down.

3 states (Deleware, Tennessee and Oklahoma) use chloroform soaked cotton in a chamber to euthanize animals. The chamber keeps the personnel performing the euthanasia safe. Taxidermists (that don't want the animal's fur messed up) use this method. So do breeders of lab animals. (the taxidermist and lab animal sites also suggest "neck-breaking" as a humane way to put an animal down.)

Here is the shelter guide showing the recommended procedure for putting down an unwanted animal with chloroform and a death chamber (pages 5-7). When you look at the diagram of the recommended death chamber, think about how it compares to the Pontiac trunk:

F5&sig=AHIEtbT1_U2OE27CkLXH1SrZpKU4XHIqpw[/URL]

I don't think the research on 'neckbreaking' was meant for little Caylee. I think the initial research for chloroform and neckbreaking was geared towards her parents.
Casey had been promising Amy that the two of them would soon be living in her parent's home. She told her the parents were 'moving away.' I think she planned to kill them and thought she could just live in the home and continue on.

 

[strach304]

Hmmm. Good thoughts!
I don't believe (not a lawyer though) that taping a cloth saturated with chloroform over Caylees mouth supports pre meditated murder, only a whole lot of other horrific crimes.
I believe the trunk was Caylees bedroom at Zanny's and had been for a long while. I think ICA didn't need a rag to douse with chloroform when she had the trunk carpet, and just needed to spill a little on there to keep Caylee knocked out a long time. Or just leave an open bottle of her home brew chloroform in the trunk. I believe the tape was to muffle Caylees screams if she did happen to wake up in the trunk. IMO, pre-meditation occurred when it did occur to ICA the night of June 15? that she should go down and check on her drugged Caylee and chose to watch another video with Tony and another after that. She was afraid to on the 16th, and by the time she did check on Caylee, the odor was there.

Who knows. We're not psychopaths and she is

There have been far too many cases of children suffocating in the back seat of a car imo for Casey not to realize she was playing Russian roulette with her daughters life by putting her in the trunk. The flurry of phone calls have always made me think she wanted a babysitter and if the argument the night before is true it explains George and Cindy ignoring her calls. I can visualize Casey in a rage thinking well fine then this is what I'll do. Imo premeditation is still there because she had plenty of time to consider the consequences of what she was doing.

 

[Nore]

According to the autopsy report Caylees nasal area
was also covered with duct tape.

 

[Jolynna]

I don't think the research on 'neckbreaking' was meant for little Caylee. I think the initial research for chloroform and neckbreaking was geared towards her parents.
Casey had been promising Amy that the two of them would soon be living in her parent's home. She told her the parents were 'moving away.' I think she planned to kill them and thought she could just live in the home and continue on.

Then KC's lucky shamrock wasn't working, because not that long after KC did her infamous searches, Caylee's decomp was staining the trunk carpet, the strongest chemical signature from that carpet (peaking to off-the-chart levels) was one of chloroform and Caylee's remains ended up in garbage bags in a swamp by KC's parent's house. All of Caylee's airways somehow got plastered over with duct tape in the process.

I agree that her parents could have initially been KC's target. But, it was a smaller and much easier victim that ended up dead in the chloroform fumey trunk.

 

[Jolynna]

Remember a long time ago we discussed in the Fiber Analysis thread that there were black wool fibers found ONLY on Mama Doll and on the 3 pieces of duct tape found on Caylee's skull? I wondered if Mama Doll had been wearing something that had been soaked in chloroform and later discarded, but the doll itself showed no traces of chloroform. :waitasec:



Duct-taping a cloth soaked with chloroform over a baby's face would VERY MUCH support a charge of premeditated murder. Also felony murder and aggravated child abuse.

She didn't have to duct tape the chloroform-soaked cloth over Caylee's face to kill her according to what I've been reading. Just having a chloroform-soaked cloth in an enclosed trunk with Caylee would have done it. Especially with the airways duct-taped over.

Maybe Mama doll's clothes are the clothes KC was talking about that "they didn't even find"?

I was thinking that KC might have used a disposable diaper for a soaking cloth. There were signs a pull-up. But, IIRC, pretty shredded and disintegrated.

 

[LambChop]

I don't think the research on 'neckbreaking' was meant for little Caylee. I think the initial research for chloroform and neckbreaking was geared towards her parents.
Casey had been promising Amy that the two of them would soon be living in her parent's home. She told her the parents were 'moving away.' I think she planned to kill them and thought she could just live in the home and continue on.

Well unless KC was planning on talking her parents into getting into the trunk of the car and she would slam the trunk shut I'm not sure how she could have used chloroform on them. They would smell it a mile away. As for neckbreaking, could to Caylee, too. She's only 5' 2" not likely to be able to break someone's neck easily. A child, yes. KC admits having problems with getting Caylee to sleep. The more frequently you use medications, the more is required eventually to work. Apparently KC wanted something to work fast and she wanted it to last awhile. 10,000 times greater than a known sample from a car. That's a lot of chloroform just to put someone out for awhile. jmo

 

[katydid23]

Then KC's lucky shamrock wasn't working, because not that long after KC did her infamous searches, Caylee's decomp was staining the trunk carpet, the strongest chemical signature from that carpet (peaking to off-the-chart levels) was one of chloroform and Caylee's remains ended up in garbage bags in a swamp by KC's parent's house. All of Caylee's airways somehow got plastered over with duct tape in the process.

I agree that her parents could have initially been KC's target. But, it was a smaller and much easier victim that ended up dead in the chloroform fumey trunk.

I think the initial searches for murder options were for her parent's deaths, but after the vicious fight with Cindy she was so angry at her mom she went ahead and killed Caylee just to spite her. imo

I think she initially chloroformed Caylee as a way to keep her unconcious so she could be with Tony.

 

[Jolynna]

According to the autopsy report Caylees nasal area
was also covered with duct tape.

That is my understanding too.

Combine searches for chloroform, searches for neck-breaking and off-the-chart chloroform peaking from the testing on the car trunk afterwards with decomp in the same trunk and duct tape plastered over and blocking the victim's airways and it isn't just one thing that makes KC look like a stone-cold killer.

 

[katydid23]

Well unless KC was planning on talking her parents into getting into the trunk of the car and she would slam the trunk shut I'm not sure how she could have used chloroform on them. They would smell it a mile away. As for neckbreaking, could to Caylee, too. She's only 5' 2" not likely to be able to break someone's neck easily. A child, yes. KC admits having problems with getting Caylee to sleep. The more frequently you use medications, the more is required eventually to work. Apparently KC wanted something to work fast and she wanted it to last awhile. 10,000 times greater than a known sample from a car. That's a lot of chloroform just to put someone out for awhile. jmo

I think she was doing the 'research' on the computer to find a way to overpower her folks. She could have snuck up on them in their sleep with chloroform I suppose. But I don't think she had a solid working plan.

 

[Jolynna]

I think the initial searches for murder options were for her parent's deaths, but after the vicious fight with Cindy she was so angry at her mom she went ahead and killed Caylee just to spite her. imo

I think she initially chloroformed Caylee as a way to keep her unconcious so she could be with Tony.

Except that when KC searched, she also searched "neck-breaking".

And when Caylee went into the Pontiac trunk, either alive or very, very soon after death duct-tape was over half of Caylee's face so Caylee couldn't breathe.

There isn't a doubt in my mind that KC killed Caylee so Cindy couldn't have her. AZLawyer's signature line came from KC's own mouth, she didn't want Caylee out there alive and with "somebody else".

 

[Scamperoo]

That actually makes a lot of sense. It would explain why there was no duct tape over Caylee's nose. She had enough to keep rag saturated in chloroform to cover Caylee's nose. And I bet that one other piece that was separate was there to keep Caylee from using her hands to get the duct tape off or at least pull out the chloroform soaked rag. Wow. This really could be worse than thought. And adding in what another poster said about Casey trying out chloroform on her parent's dogs...holy moly...

I wonder if she had put Caylee asleep in the trunk before with chloroform, but just hadn't used duct tape to secure her? I wonder if the high level of chlorform wasn't from one time, but many different times of poor Caylee being put back there and knocked out with chloroform? So the levels built up over time? Maybe before just having a rag on her face was enough to keep her knocked out for awhile, but this last time, she was angry and wanted to make dang sure Caylee had no chance of waking up or getting it off of her face before Casey got back to deal with her? Or maybe she knew it might kill her and didn't care? I have the feeling this murder is more cold and calculated than we ever imagined...

I have thought about this quite a bit and the one thing I can't get my mind around is, the duct tape was wrapped around the head and into the hair, IMHO that would only be done if the tape wasn't going to be removed..ever!

Can you imagine trying to get that out of a live child's hair without seriously cutting or shaving her hair?

 

[pip]

Wasn't her doll found in the carseat? Why would it have Chloroform on it if it wasn't in the trunk?

 

[katydid23]

Except that when KC searched, she also searched "neck-breaking".

And when Caylee went into the Pontiac trunk, either alive or very, very soon after death duct-tape was over half of Caylee's face so Caylee couldn't breathe.

There isn't a doubt in my mind that KC killed Caylee so Cindy couldn't have her. AZLawyer's signature line came from KC's own mouth, she didn't want Caylee out there alive and with "somebody else".

I agree that she killed Caylee to spite Cindy. And I think it was partially in response to Cindy threatening to take custody of Caylee after the big fight.

But I think at the time of the initial computer searches Casey was fantasizing the murder of her folks.

 

[AZlawyer]

Wasn't her doll found in the carseat? Why would it have Chloroform on it if it wasn't in the trunk?

Assuming Cindy didn't move it.

But if the doll had no trace of chloroform I agree it is unlikely that it was in a trunk with a high concentration of chloroform.

 

[lowens1975]

I think she was doing the 'research' on the computer to find a way to overpower her folks. She could have snuck up on them in their sleep with chloroform I suppose. But I don't think she had a solid working plan.

Too bad we don't have access to the Anthony's financial records. It would interesting to know if they had an insurance 'rider' on their mortgage that would pay off their house in case they both died. Or if there are life insurance policies on either of them. I have a hard time believing she wasn't planning on 'something' happening to them both. It's been said that, despite what she was saying to Amy, neither Cindy nor George promised her the house if they divorced. And Shirley Pleasa said Cindy told her she didn't go through with a divorce from George because he would get half. Also, on June 16, 2008, Casey placed a phone call to a Lexus Dealer. How the heck was she planning on paying for that??

 

[joypath]

One of Baez's main arguments was as follows:

Baez:Isn't it true that you are not a bio-chemist? Then are you aware that your WIKI refers to you as one?

JA: OBJECTION

Baez: Okay, well, Isn't it true that your Sniffer Machine will make you a pretty penny, when ALL of the police departments across the nation order it because of this testimony at this trial?

:maddening::maddening::maddening: Now I :innocent: have admitted my HUGE BIAS regarding this Ph. D in previous posts (NOPE, it isn't the "classic M.D. vs D.O. vs Ph.D vs DDS/DDM vs D.V.M." crap!) but challenging the "WIKI" definition of Dr. Vass as a "bio-chemist" was DUMB for the following reasons:
1. His ASCP certification ALONE requires a MINIMUM of 20 credit hours (academic,college course) in "mother chemistry" and then a clinical rotation in CLINICAL CHEMISTRY! UMMM, what I'm saying is MEDICAL TECHNOLOGISTS "know" chemistry-be it bio-chem, pathophysiological chem, analytical chem, organic chem , or YUCK, analytical chem.
PS: The degree requirements for a BS in "pure Biology" (aka what the heck can I do with this degree other than more school/research/"HOPE a lab will OJT train me") USUALLY requires at least 16 credit hours in chem., most students grab MORE to assist in getting a JOB! PSS: The is another facet of "bio-chemistry" totally ignored by JB: That which is covered in depth within advanced level BIOLOGY/MICROBIOLOGY/PATHPHYS. courses :seeya:




2. MS degree: A minimum of 42 GRADUATE semester credits here's a "taste" of the "chemistry/bio-chemistry" type courses and PLEASE NOTE the "weight" of the credit hours! BIOC/MICR 503 Biochemistry, Cell and Molecular Biology

3​

BIOC/MICR 504 Biochemistry, Cell and Molecular Biology

3​

BIOL 530/HGEN 501 Human Genetics

3​

BIOL/BNFO 540 Fundamentals of Molecular Genetics

3​

BIOL 693 Current Topics in Biology (molecular biology)

1​

CHEM 506 Introduction to Spectroscopic Methods in Organic Chemistry

1.5​

CHEM 606 Advanced Spectroscopic Methods in Organic Chemistry

1.5​

CHEM 630 Electroanalytical Chemistry

1.5​

CHEM 631 Separation Science

1.5​

CHEM 632 Chemometrics

1.5​

CHEM 633 Mass Spectrometry




CHEM 634 Surface Science

1.5​

CHEM 635 Spectrochemical Analysis 1.5


FRSC 670 Forensic Evidence and Criminal Procedure 3








FRSC 671 Instrumentation in Forensic Chemistry

3​

FRSC 673 Forensic Microscopy

2​

FRSZ 673 Forensic Microscopy Laboratory

1​

FRSC 675 Forensic Serology and DNA Analysis

2​

FRSZ 675 Forensic Serology and DNA Analysis Laboratory

1​

Gonna take a lot of course work & TIME to reach the magic degree #, eh?

Okay think I "hit" my point that the good Dr. KNOWS his way around a chem lab.......and definitely one with GC/MS since that instrumentation is utilized in the BOLDED courses!​

AND: HE ISN'T the primary "owner" of the sniffer! :banghead:​

 

[MADJGNLAW]

According to the autopsy report Caylees nasal area
was also covered with duct tape.

BBMThat is what I thought I had read to. First thought was, no way was this an accident...no way. :no: JMO

 

[Star12]

I am not part of the Anthony case. I don't even live in Florida.

But I was not only embarassed but horrified at the way Baez treated such an esteemed witness as Dr. Vass. I also was embarrased forBaez.

In fact I was embarrased by the way he treated the dog handlers as well. He was not cute, he was not amusing, he is waaaay out of his league and his ignorance of both the law and the depth of the subjects was abundantly clear.

He asked, IMHO, ridiculous questions that had no bearing on the Frye issues, and did not comprehend the answers he received. What is the saying? A little information is a dangerous thing.

He wanted Dr. Vass's complete database of chemicals he has found in decomposition, but it seems to me that he did not understand that not all of them comprised a decomposition event. For instance, flouride is found in some bodies in certain populations in the US because of flouride treatments and flouridated water, but is not found in other populations such as Europe where they do not use flouride. Baez didn't even seem to understand the 30 or so basic decomp chemicals and their significance and how they are found in other substances. Venn diagrams are taught in what? 7th grade?

Jeff Ashton, on the other hand, was kind, put his witness at ease, was professional, and asked terrific questions - he had a comprehension of the subject matter and easily elicited the answers he needed.

I would expect the air sampling to pass Frye. Air sampling is widely used in industry, and I see no reason why it should not be accepted in a legal setting. But then HHJP may have another thought.

And cadaver dogs already are accepted. These two canines had good careers and successful records.

JMHO

 

[Intermezzo]

Last night I searched for Vass on FB. What I got is just an info page which links a wiki page..it obviously is NOT Vass's FB page. Anyone should be able to tell that. As if Vass put the page on there himself and linked a Wiki page he wrote for himself. Duh!! He looked surprised that there was this stuff about him!!

I laughed when Baez mentioned WIKI..my 10 year old keeps telling me, whenever she see Wiki up on the computer screen, "mommy you can't believe what's on wiki..other people can post things there that are wrong, okay mommy"
god bless her little heart...she knows more than mommy.:innocent:

 

[strawberry]

I laughed when Baez mentioned WIKI..my 10 year old keeps telling me, whenever she see Wiki up on the computer screen, "mommy you can't believe what's on wiki..other people can post things there that are wrong, okay mommy"
god bless her little heart...she knows more than mommy.:innocent:

Yeah, students aren't allowed to use it as a source. But they must be teaching that young now!!