2011.03.24 - Air Sample Expert Testimony

[Beatrice]

Casey's computer searches say it all~

 

[BlOnDe_GuRrL]

I'm pretty sure there was a power wash sprayer, pesticide sprayer, vacuums, etc. I do know we had threads here for both chloroform and grave wax. Cleaning products and pesticides were discussed for the chloroform and soap and cosmetics for the grave wax.

sorry... o/t
does anyone know where the grave wax thread is?
i found a site that has some awesome pics of adipocere formation that i wanted to add. lady was in a river or some form of water for 7 months and is covered in it
i'm assuming the time spent under water (during the flood) is what caused the small amount to be found on her leg bone... i don't know if what was found on the napkins was adipocere.. doesn't sound like it.. but definitely sounds like the beginning stages. or at least the fatty acids that eventually saponify

 

[Just Jayla]

Sorry if already addressed:

I posted here earlier that I thought Val could do a great job of supporting Dr. V's testimony in chrystal clear terms-And she has.

Not to say that Dr. Vass did not do a tremendous job, that was never what I was insinuating....but, well, see Valhalls' site. She gave Dr. Vass a great assist.

Additionally, and not that Val is not a polite gal, but she sees through Baez's garbage wheras Dr. Vass was attempting a polite discussion with Baez. Val cuts the crap, sure wish she was on the stand with Dr. Vass. Unlike the good doctor, she knows exactly where this defense is going with all of this at the end of the day and she's on the offense....sooooo....

 

[strawberry]

sorry... o/t
does anyone know where the grave wax thread is?
i found a site that has some awesome pics of adipocere formation that i wanted to add. lady was in a river or some form of water for 7 months and is covered in it
i'm assuming the time spent under water (during the flood) is what caused the small amount to be found on her leg bone... i don't know if what was found on the napkins was adipocere.. doesn't sound like it.. but definitely sounds like the beginning stages. or at least the fatty acids that eventually saponify

Is this the one you're looking for?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93024&highlight=decomp

 

[gitana1]

I just finished watching all of Dr. Vass' testimony. Phew!

You have all "said it all" about Dr. Vass's testimony so I will only add - I thought he was brilliant - was able to dumb down the scientific stuff so that even I could understand clearly what he was saying but unfortunately for Baez it was......................:whoosh:.........still way over his head.

I'm going to say I do believe HHJP will allow Dr. Vass's work. I just listened to Bill Schaeffer's latest video posted in Today's News and he was blown away by Dr. Vass. He says Dr. Vass provides the information that ties together all the circumstantial evidence the SA has in this case and it is immensely damning.

I'm going with that thought.

I will be shocked if the judge does not let this in. IMO, this is valid scientific....stuff (ok that's my extent of science words). Just because it hasn't been used before, there is a first time for everything to become standard.

ETA: I just read RH's blog entry re Dr. Vass....and I see where this could actually be an uphill battle.
http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

I think it could come in. I disagreed with Hornsby's blog post. What I thought I heard Dr. Vass state was that the 30 compounds discussed are typically associated (in the scientific community) with decomp. events. It seems that the methodology and instrumentation used (the filters) are typical but studying decomp air with it is new. However, if the methodology and some of the instrumentation are typical, I say the way the process was used is novel but the process itself is not and it should come in.

I do think JB has confused the goal of scientists with that of certain types of attorneys, doctors, etc. Scientists are obsessed with finding the answers to things that we would think is boring. For the most part money is not their main priority, that's the job of administration.

The "cool" statement just goes right over JB's head. Funny. It's like JB just got run over by a steamroller. jmo

It was so clear how passionate this guy is about his science. I loved him. But then again, I usually adore dorky professors. I respect them immensely. I'm sure Dr. Vass' students love him.

I haven't had a chance to read the thread. I just finished watching the testimony of Dr Vass for the first time and wanted to (((((scream))))) say a few things
First off, why didn't the DT scientific shred the Dr guru aka DCS cross examine this witness? Wasn't she the one who submitted whatever she submitted, late as per course, at the last hearing regarding air testing or Frye on yellow lined paper?
Why was she there if not to take on the forensics??? Does JB need a DP qualified babysitter during preliminary hearings too?

Who does JB think he is questioning the ethics of someone like Dr Vass? Especially while he's under investigation by his Bar for discretions that could have him disbarred. It was surreal to watch him attempt to suggest that an instrument that was never used in this case, may earn Dr Vass a shared portion of a 15% royalty after 20+ years of accumulated work and testing has gone into it. This from the media w**re with 3 years experience who can't manage his parking tickets. Pompous puffed up....never mind.
Unless Universities work very differently in the US than they do in Canada, it is the University that would own any patent, not the individual researcher employed there. He is being offered a share of royalties and rightly so.
If Dr Vass was ever motivated to get rich, he probably wouldn't have selected to develop expertise in the chemical components of human decomposition working in a University Lab. He'd be working for DuPont on new and improved penile implants and earning several million per year before profit sharing IMHO. What I saw was a man driven by the joy of scientific discovery loyal to the people who have allowed him to engage in his passion while his family grew.

I really don't understand why any of the DT cross examination was allowed today. JB didn't even have the grace to greet Dr Vass. I have no idea what purpose DCS serves except to answer ICA's questions. I'm just at a loss.
I will say this.....in my world, a Doctor with 3 years experience in general surgery would never be allowed to hone craniotomy skills on a living patient ever, let alone while neurosurgeons napped in the corner or played with their laptops. ICA should snap out of her paralegal fantasy world long enough to absorb whats happening around her before her chance at pleading for her sad life is over.
moo

Dr Vass is an amazing witness. I actually understood everything he explained right up until JB started up and even then I still understood Dr Vass

He was very clear to me as well. I understood for the most part what he was saying and why he was confused by JB's questions and the silly points JB was attempting to make (fail) with those points. He was such a sweet heart and so patient. I felt bad for him. Here he has devoted his entire life to this research, he is clearly motivated by the excitement, not the money, he is proud of what he has achieved and excited by the future possibilities. He gets off on this stuff! But he had to sit and listen while some arrogant, uneducated man tried to belittle him and ignorantly pick apart research and science he knows nothing about. I can see Dr. Vass interested in an intellectual debate about his research but to try to defend it against the brayings of JB is like trying to prove to flat earthers that the world is round. Q: "So, you, sir, have no way of proving whether there was a fly on your telescope when you looked at the horizon, isn't that not right?" (by the way, JB's use of double negatives is a huge no no in questioning a witness. very confusing) A: "What the heck does that have to do with viewing the sphericity of the earth via a telescope at sea? What are you talking about?"

At the end of this nonsense, the poor doctor was so tired. I felt sorry for him as he walked out of there with no one to tell him how incredible his testimony was, how interesting his science, how clear he was and how we all learned (minus JB) a bit about science thanks to him. It must be so dispiriting to realize that regardless of decades of work and honing one's teaching skills, there still exist people (who purport to be professionals) who are so thick headed and ill-motivated that they will never appreciate nor understand what you are so clearly showing. Ugh!

There have been far too many cases of children suffocating in the back seat of a car imo for Casey not to realize she was playing Russian roulette with her daughters life by putting her in the trunk. The flurry of phone calls have always made me think she wanted a babysitter and if the argument the night before is true it explains George and Cindy ignoring her calls. I can visualize Casey in a rage thinking well fine then this is what I'll do. Imo premeditation is still there because she had plenty of time to consider the consequences of what she was doing.

I don't think the research on 'neckbreaking' was meant for little Caylee. I think the initial research for chloroform and neckbreaking was geared towards her parents.
Casey had been promising Amy that the two of them would soon be living in her parent's home. She told her the parents were 'moving away.' I think she planned to kill them and thought she could just live in the home and continue on.

casey was researching in March 08' neck breaking and chloroform. She was not having discussions with Amy until may of that year, I believe, about moving in together. At the time of those discussions, she texted Amy about signing off on a place of her own where Amy could live as well. I just don't think the research was meant for her parents. Breaking the necks of large adults would be extremely hard. But, it's a possibility. She seems evil enough.

Mainly, though, I think casey thought about killing her daughter for months before she decided to carry through with it. As CA became more upset with casey's stealing and using CA for babysitting while not really being able to prove she was actually employed, she started trying to hold casey more accountable and making it bit harder for casey to dump Caylee on her. This gradually increased casey's rage towards both.

I don't think casey used anything to sedate her daughter on a regular basis. It seems clear from depo testimony and statements from numerous people, where Caylee was on a given night at least beginning in May, before her mother murdered her, and even prior. It seems she was either with casey at Ricardos or with CA at home or with casey at a party, not stashed in a trunk.

I think the final tipping point for casey in deciding the time was right to get rid of her "little snothead" was three-fold: One, in May of 08', she told Amy she cleared the dates and could go to PR for a two week vacation as long as it was in early July. casey made it seem she was clearing the dates with her mythical employer. In fact, the first two weeks of July match up more with CA's June vacation dates. She assumed her mother would take her vacation when casey asked her to and watch Caylee. She assumed she could somehow steal the money to fund her vacation. Neither happened and casey became enraged. Two, Tony stated he didn't want Caylee to spend the night at his apartment. He didn't think it was appropriate. Well, casey had been able to thwart her mother's admonitions to stay home and care for her own kid by simply taking Caylee with her to Ricardos. That wasn't flying with the new guy she was so, so infatuated with. Now, she was under increasing pressure to get her mom off her back and be free to party the way she wanted to. Three, the huge confrontation the night before Caylee disappeared. I think it was then that the proverbial you know what hit the fan in that house with casey's theft of her relation's property. And that was the final straw. By murdering her baby, casey could get rid of her ball and chain and punish her mom for not making life easier for her and for trying to replace casey as the family princess with Caylee: "All they care about is Caylee. That's all they care about...calling you guys was a huge waste."

Yeah, IMO, this was no accident, it was fully premeditated, but the timing was due to various events that caused casey to decide the time was now.

Dr. Vass appearance in court last Thursday so impressed me that it might have inspired me to study forensics if I was 50 years younger, but since I am not, it inspired me in another way.

After watching Dr. Vass's testamony I looked up the University of Tennessee's Forensic Anthropology Center web page and liked what I saw; so have filled out the it is donation forms and told my lawyer and my oldest son that it is where I want my body donated.

I have always thought modern embalming and burial practices a huge waste and had considered donating my body to science, but had heard so many antidotes about medical students playing practical jokes with body parts of donated corpse to feel happy about turning my body over to a medical school. But after seeing Dr Vass and reading about the work they are doing from their website, I feel very good about furthering the study of forensics in this way.

I had the same thought! What endeared me to Vass was how respectfully he referred to the remains he studies. He kept saying "the individual", etc, using personal language to refer to the corpses. I think he views these cadavers as remnants of people, not just material. What a lovely man.

 

[denjet]

Hope this is the right thread for an "independent" testing of carpet ...

Straight from HinkyMeter:

Synthetic Carpet Exposed to Residential Chemicals and Expired Volatile Anesthetic Agent- A Random Analysis of Gross Morphological Changes and Odor Emission (Junk Science)
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[logicalgirl]

Sorry if already addressed:

I posted here earlier that I thought Val could do a great job of supporting Dr. V's testimony in chrystal clear terms-And she has.

Not to say that Dr. Vass did not do a tremendous job, that was never what I was insinuating....but, well, see Valhalls' site. She gave Dr. Vass a great assist.

Additionally, and not that Val is not a polite gal, but she sees through Baez's garbage wheras Dr. Vass was attempting a polite discussion with Baez. Val cuts the crap, sure wish she was on the stand with Dr. Vass. Unlike the good doctor, she knows exactly where this defense is going with all of this at the end of the day and she's on the offense....sooooo....

Wish I'd said that! I :heartluv: Valhall's contribution to the technical side of this case in terms I can understand.

Several people got together to do a separate carpet testing experiment as practitioners - residential division. if you need a chuckle, posted earlier today.

 

[chefmom]

Hope this is the right thread for an "independent" testing of carpet ...

Straight from HinkyMeter:

Synthetic Carpet Exposed to Residential Chemicals and Expired Volatile Anesthetic Agent- A Random Analysis of Gross Morphological Changes and Odor Emission (Junk Science)
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Hilarious

:great: :floorlaugh:

 

[BlOnDe_GuRrL]

i always assumed that the high levels of chloroform found in the trunk were due to some cleaner they used on the stain.. i never rally thought she actually used chloroform on caylee.. however, it sounds like dr. vass is convinced she did.. so that's enough for me!
what did he say? the level found was 10,000 times greater han you'd expect to see?
they never tested for the exact amount.. it was off the chart.

but HOW? i sat thru a youtube video "how to make chloroform" and it seemed like way too much work for her.. you mix bleach and acetone.. cook it and the chloroform settles at the bottom, acetone on top. maybe that's where the syringe comes in?
but maybe that's it... she was sloppy and that's why it ended so badly?

omg could you imagine what people would think if they went thru half of our computers?
how do you explain all the stuff we've looked up? adipocere, chloroform etc. :/

 

[logicalgirl]

Hope this is the right thread for an "independent" testing of carpet ...

Straight from HinkyMeter:

Synthetic Carpet Exposed to Residential Chemicals and Expired Volatile Anesthetic Agent- A Random Analysis of Gross Morphological Changes and Odor Emission (Junk Science)
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Oh thank you - I saw Jayla's admiration of Valhall and suggested she see the new testing results.

Very very clever! :great:

 

[faefrost]

i always assumed that the high levels of chloroform found in the trunk were due to some cleaner they used on the stain.. i never rally thought she actually used chloroform on caylee.. however, it sounds like dr. vass is convinced she did.. so that's enough for me!
what did he say? the level found was 10,000 times greater han you'd expect to see?
they never tested for the exact amount.. it was off the chart.

but HOW? i sat thru a youtube video "how to make chloroform" and it seemed like way too much work for her.. you mix bleach and acetone.. cook it and the chloroform settles at the bottom, acetone on top. maybe that's where the syringe comes in?
but maybe that's it... she was sloppy and that's why it ended so badly?

omg could you imagine what people would think if they went thru half of our computers?
how do you explain all the stuff we've looked up? adipocere, chloroform etc. :/

This is KC we are talking about. Where did she get the chloroform? If it was in fact actual full strength chloroform and not some weird chemical byproduct, then she probably stole it from one of her shady party friends.

 

[faefrost]

Hope this is the right thread for an "independent" testing of carpet ...

Straight from HinkyMeter:

Synthetic Carpet Exposed to Residential Chemicals and Expired Volatile Anesthetic Agent- A Random Analysis of Gross Morphological Changes and Odor Emission (Junk Science)
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Now JB is going to submit a motion to add the mom and grade schoolers to his witness list, and another motion requesting a rehearing on the Frye matters so he can get them all to testify. :innocent:

 

[logicalgirl]

I thought it was kind of interesting over at the Hinky that Valhall is :waitasec: if the chloroform is a by product - or off gas - of some kind of bug spray/pesticide "someone" sprayed into the trunk to get rid of any flies or bugs....

And I think she might have been saying it to annoy Baez....but not sure.... as in one more road he has not traveled.

 

[BlOnDe_GuRrL]

This is KC we are talking about. Where did she get the chloroform? If it was in fact actual full strength chloroform and not some weird chemical byproduct, then she probably stole it from one of her shady party friends.

exactly.. if she made up a botched version (acetone and bleach) and didn't filter it properly.. i would think that they would've found high levels of acetone in the trunk as well...because it sits on the top and the chloroform is at the bottom (pic attached - red arrow is acetone & water.. blue arrow is chloroform)
now, if that syringe that was found at the dump site, was in fact used by casey, she could draw it up in the syringe i suppose..
or she very well could've stolen it -the videos make it seem like every college kid has it laying around

 

[ynotdivein]

I have come to terms with the possibility that KC cooked up a batch of chloroform on her own--the internet results I've found (though not tested!) make it seem fairly easy.

If she did this, and tried to apply it to Caylee, well, yeah I can see how that would have killed Caylee.

(Flashback to GA telling River Cruz it was "an accident that snowballed out of control"...)

But how do we get from "accident that snowballed" to "three layers of duct tape" over Caylee's mouth and perhaps nose?

<ETA: Sending up joypath signal--joypath, is there any scientific way that KC could have used chloroform (even home-made) on Caylee on or about June 16 2008, and still have the off-the-charts readings for chloroform that were obtained over a month later? Would not the chloroform have evaporated by then, even in a closed car trunk?>

 

[JBean]

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